"Upgrade" from deeded weeks in Orlando, FL to points only- sales pitch about new laws, reserve funds, special assessments

[ElectricBlue]

Have been searching the forum for info on this, please let me know if I missed it somewhere, or if I should post in a different forum on these boards?

My parents were recently convinced to go from deeded weeks in Orlando to full points only system. The sales pitch had to do with new laws in Florida (since the apartment building collapse) related to needing more reserve funds, and avoiding the risk/liability of being hit with massive special assessment fees. I think they were tossing out numbers of SA fees upwards of $130,000.00.

Sounds ok in theory, and then I heard what they had to pay for this "upgrade" and I think it was double their original purchase price (which I think happened in the 90s). It makes me angry to think my parents are getting taken advantage of. (And I'm trying to keep track of all the timeshare stuff with a healthy worry about how I'll need to handle these things when they are gone- i.e. a boat load of MF's that I cannot personally afford). Seems to me, their "upgrade" just went ahead and bolstered that reserve fund anyway.

I'm sure the rescission period is over, but I am trying to understand if this was actually a good deal, or classic scam from the sales people?

And I'm curious if other owners have been getting this same pitch?

I've generally seen advice in this forum that the deeded week vs floating or points is usually better. They were sold on the idea of getting away from the FL liability and gaining the flexibility of the points system. (To be somewhat fair, I don't personally have any desire to travel to Orlando so as a potential beneficiary, that seems nice, but the price point still seems way too high, and potentially better to invest that money and use the growth as a travel fund).

 

[DanCali]

Unfortunately, your suspicions are correct... Owners have been getting this pitch for years. Here is a thread from 2024 eerily similar to your situation:

Presentation Converting deeded property to just abound points

Just went to a presentation in Hilton Head where they offered to convert my deeded Grand Vista deed to abound points. Their rational is that the yearly percentage increase in maintenance fees for points is less than the that of a deeded property. They basically buy your property for what you...

tugbbs.com

 

[WorldT]

You didn't mention when this happened. However, if you are certain that the recission period is passed then there is no way to get the money back. If they have finished paying for the "upgrade", then the next thing is to learn how to maximize its use. To do that, you will need to know exactly what the purchased.

If they have not finished paying, depending on how much is left and if they don't need the product anymore, they may be better of just stopping the payment and letting Marriott take back the points.

 

[ElectricBlue]

@DanCali -Thank you, that's great context to see such a similar tactic in a different location. This new FL law must be such a "gift" for a grifting salesperson.

My parents are SO convinced that they are getting out of this big liability in FL, though, and I lack the knowledge to counter their argument. I'd love to hear from anyone with specific experience or knowledge in the FL area with these news laws going into effect. My spidey-sense thinks it's bad, but I can't debate or converse on spidey-sense alone.

 

[DanCali]

Even if it were true - what is the $130,000 you cite when split over 300 units and 52 owners for each unit? Less than $10 per ownership week?

And even if it were true, and the numbers were much worse (say $1000 one time special assessment fee per unit), is it worth paying $30K now to buy points that are worthless on the resale market, in order to save $1000? It's probably not worth it even if it was $1000 annually...

I own a FL timeshare with MVC and the maintenance fee increases there have not really been worse than at other locations outside of FL.

 

[ElectricBlue]

@WorldT - this happened within the last month. At this point, they plan to use the points eventually (in theory), but don't need them in the next year. They have also been convinced they can "rent" or sell the points for income to help pay for this "upgrade" (this idea did not come from the Marriott sales people to be fair, however, the Westgate sales people had already convinced them of that idea).

I am not sure of the exact date they signed, but I'm sure it's been more than 10 days. Even if we did have time to get out of it, I don't know how to convince them it was a bad idea. Though I'd love to be armed with this knowledge for the future.

@DanCali - they seemed to believe the $130k could be per owner. I wasn't in the presentation though. And I generally expect them to be inflating things and generally lying.

Do you mind expanding on the points being worthless on the resale market? Does that refer to reselling all of their points to a new owner, or do you mean in trying to monetize renting out the timeshare/points?

I think the marriott sales team was also convincing them that their deeded week was going to be hard to sell or off-load because of these laws/potential liability.

 

[WorldT]

[/QUOTE]

Do you mind expanding on the points being worthless on the resale market? Does that refer to reselling all of their points to a new owner, or do you mean in trying to monetize renting out the timeshare/points?

I think the marriott sales team was also convincing them that their deeded week was going to be hard to sell or off-load because of these laws/potential liability.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the points have no resale value. Trying to get rid of eat is hard. There are many people offering it up for free.
The value only exists in your ability to use it.
Depending on what they actually purchased, they may be able to rent it out. However, the idea of renting points as a means to offset maintenance fee is not a sustainable venture. The sales people lied (not surprising).

 

[DanCali]

@DanCali - they seemed to believe the $130k could be per owner. I wasn't in the presentation though. And I generally expect them to be inflating things and generally lying.

Do you mind expanding on the points being worthless on the resale market? Does that refer to reselling all of their points to a new owner, or do you mean in trying to monetize renting out the timeshare/points?

I think the marriott sales team was also convincing them that their deeded week was going to be hard to sell or off-load because of these laws/potential liability.

$130K per owner x 52 owners per condo x 300 condos would be just about $2,000,000,000 ($2 billion) for the resort (and 6.75 million per condo).

You could raze the entire resort and rebuild 300 new gorgeous condos at less than 10% of that cost...

The points are "worthless" on the resale market because if you try to sell then you'd likely get less than $2/pt ($3 at best). Even the going rate to transfer points to other owners for one-time use is less than their maintenance fees. Lots of deeded weeks are "worthless" too, but some still are quire valuable.

 

[Wanderlustgrl]

We heard this pitch in Oceana palms. We said no as we were already in talks with exit services and knew deedback was an option although they said it wasn’t. I feel bad for anyone who fell for this

 

[TolmiePeak]

We heard this pitch in Oceana palms. We said no as we were already in talks with exit services and knew deedback was an option although they said it wasn’t. I feel bad for anyone who fell for this

Even worse are foreign scammers. You almost need to program your parents phone so they can't answer any calls from numbers not in their contacts list.

 

[WBP]

Have been searching the forum for info on this, please let me know if I missed it somewhere, or if I should post in a different forum on these boards?

My parents were recently convinced to go from deeded weeks in Orlando to full points only system. The sales pitch had to do with new laws in Florida (since the apartment building collapse) related to needing more reserve funds, and avoiding the risk/liability of being hit with massive special assessment fees. I think they were tossing out numbers of SA fees upwards of $130,000.00.

Sounds ok in theory, and then I heard what they had to pay for this "upgrade" and I think it was double their original purchase price (which I think happened in the 90s). It makes me angry to think my parents are getting taken advantage of. (And I'm trying to keep track of all the timeshare stuff with a healthy worry about how I'll need to handle these things when they are gone- i.e. a boat load of MF's that I cannot personally afford). Seems to me, their "upgrade" just went ahead and bolstered that reserve fund anyway.

I'm sure the rescission period is over, but I am trying to understand if this was actually a good deal, or classic scam from the sales people?

And I'm curious if other owners have been getting this same pitch?

I've generally seen advice in this forum that the deeded week vs floating or points is usually better. They were sold on the idea of getting away from the FL liability and gaining the flexibility of the points system. (To be somewhat fair, I don't personally have any desire to travel to Orlando so as a potential beneficiary, that seems nice, but the price point still seems way too high, and potentially better to invest that money and use the growth as a travel fund).

Marriott Vacation Club is following in Diamond Resorts footsteps, and preying on vulnerable, senior citizens.

I suggest you help your parents file a complaint with the following regulatory bodies, in Florida: the Attorney General’s Office, the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes, and the Florida office of Adult Protective Services. The charge would need to be that Marriott Vacation Club is preying on vulnerable senior citizens.

 

[pedro47]

Another high pressure sale to scare seniors citizens to purchase something that they do not need. IMHO

$130,000.00 sale for what? No one are building any new timeshare resorts in Orlando.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Another high pressure sale to scare seniors citizens to purchase something that they do not need. IMHO

$130,000.00 sale for what? No one are building any new timeshare resorts in Orlando.

This was about special assessments after a building collapsed on the beach a few years back.

I am sorry to see Marriott sales going in this direction. Wyndham and other resort systems use these scare tactics.

 

[Snazzylass]

@WorldT - this happened within the last month. At this point, they plan to use the points eventually (in theory), but don't need them in the next year. They have also been convinced they can "rent" or sell the points for income to help pay for this "upgrade" (this idea did not come from the Marriott sales people to be fair, however, the Westgate sales people had already convinced them of that idea).

I am not sure of the exact date they signed, but I'm sure it's been more than 10 days. Even if we did have time to get out of it, I don't know how to convince them it was a bad idea. Though I'd love to be armed with this knowledge for the future.

@DanCali - they seemed to believe the $130k could be per owner. I wasn't in the presentation though. And I generally expect them to be inflating things and generally lying.

Do you mind expanding on the points being worthless on the resale market? Does that refer to reselling all of their points to a new owner, or do you mean in trying to monetize renting out the timeshare/points?

I think the marriott sales team was also convincing them that their deeded week was going to be hard to sell or off-load because of these laws/potential liability.

I wish your folks already understood there's nothing to sell! Their T/S is simply something to enjoy! However, I completely understand. My mother bought T/Ss in Mexico years ago after my sister had been employed with RCI and we enjoyed staying at one. And, it all worked out for many years.

At some point, scammers got ahold of my dad and he wasted a bunch of $$. Meh. He's since passed away and my mother will have my brother do what he wants.

Yes, it was a mistake for your folks to give back their deed for a points system simply due to the cost and their lack of understanding. It was Seaside condos that fell into the Atlantic Ocean and people were killed in addition to everyone losing their homes. The State of Florida is smart to demand these HOAs fully fund their reserves. The lack of reserves for condos is a problem everywhere! And sometimes the owners can't afford the Special Assessments.

However, the books are complete moogy foogy at many T/S. Meaning, you can't even begin to worry about their Reserves. If any owner gets a Special Assessment, one needs to decide if it's worth it to pay or walk away. It's a transaction, not an investment.

 

[Panzerman45]

I remember clearly our first Marriott presentation in October of 1990. Desert Springs Villas 1. It was so low key and highly professional.
So low key, they said to go home and think about it as they didn't want to use up any more of our vacation time. We bought a few days later.
Just the actual facts were presented and it was an impressive presentation and very professional office. One on one, no groups.
That is why we bought our First Marriott. $10,250 with yearly maintenace of $450
Our purchase gift were two airline tickets to any Marriott in the World (We went to Vienna Austria), the week at the fancy Marriott and a BMW car
rental for the week. Good days that will always be remembered.
Marriott was top notch back then.

 

[NboroGirl]

I remember clearly our first Marriott presentation in October of 1990. Desert Springs Villas 1. It was so low key and highly professional.
So low key, they said to go home and think about it as they didn't want to use up any more of our vacation time. We bought a few days later.
Just the actual facts were presented and it was an impressive presentation and very professional office. One on one, no groups.
That is why we bought our First Marriott. $10,250 with yearly maintenace of $450
Our purchase gift were two airline tickets to any Marriott in the World (We went to Vienna Austria), the week at the fancy Marriott and a BMW car
rental for the week. Good days that will always be remembered.
Marriott was top notch back then.

Same here. In 2003 we signed up for our 1st presentation in Orlando simply to get the 4 nights free lodging plus 2 park tickets, and our salesman, Vic Martinez, did not pressure us at all. We told him our neighbors owned at a different Marriott so he suggested we go home and talk to them. He also offered to give them the 40k (?) Marriott rewards points for suggesting us to Marriott, even though they didn't. We ended buying an EOY (even) at Grande Vista even though we were there for Horizons, which was being built (now Harbour Lake?) which we didn't think was suitable for our teenagers. We then toured Cypress Harbour and eventually picked Grande Vista because of the lockoff ability. He said if we decided to buy the EOY odd weeks, to let him know. If it was within a year, he wouldn't charge us the EOY price but instead, the difference between a full week and what we paid. And we ended up doing that.

A couple of years later Vic was gone (went to Grand Chateau) when we decided we also wanted a 3BR and our experience was the complete opposite. The salesman, Michael A., pressured us, lied to us, etc. For weeks afterwards he hounded me to write a letter to his boss saying how great he was because he could get a monetary award for each positive letter. I refused. Blech.

 

[heitmullerj02]

Ok, so when I owned Vistana, they sent a copy of the inspection report to comply with the FL law. It also included a timeline to complete as well as financial info regarding reserves. Your parents should have asked or looked into that first. They are owned by Marriott so that info should have been available before purchasing anything.

 

[rickandcindy23]

In May of 2003, we attended a presentation at Marriott's Willow Ridge Lodge (it was another name at the time), Branson, MO. It was 100% honest and low-pressure. I went away from that thinking Marriott was the classiest timeshare system ever.

Of course, I still feel that way about the products but not the salespeople.

 

[rapmarks]

Leave it to sales to turn someone else’s tragedy into a money making opportunity

 

[traumaguy]

Have been searching the forum for info on this, please let me know if I missed it somewhere, or if I should post in a different forum on these boards?

My parents were recently convinced to go from deeded weeks in Orlando to full points only system. The sales pitch had to do with new laws in Florida (since the apartment building collapse) related to needing more reserve funds, and avoiding the risk/liability of being hit with massive special assessment fees. I think they were tossing out numbers of SA fees upwards of $130,000.00.

Sounds ok in theory, and then I heard what they had to pay for this "upgrade" and I think it was double their original purchase price (which I think happened in the 90s). It makes me angry to think my parents are getting taken advantage of. (And I'm trying to keep track of all the timeshare stuff with a healthy worry about how I'll need to handle these things when they are gone- i.e. a boat load of MF's that I cannot personally afford). Seems to me, their "upgrade" just went ahead and bolstered that reserve fund anyway.

I'm sure the rescission period is over, but I am trying to understand if this was actually a good deal, or classic scam from the sales people?

And I'm curious if other owners have been getting this same pitch?

I've generally seen advice in this forum that the deeded week vs floating or points is usually better. They were sold on the idea of getting away from the FL liability and gaining the flexibility of the points system. (To be somewhat fair, I don't personally have any desire to travel to Orlando so as a potential beneficiary, that seems nice, but the price point still seems way too high, and potentially better to invest that money and use the growth as a travel fund).

I dont know how many weeks or points your parents own but $130,000 seems way out of line unless they own enough weeks or points for several months. i've owned timeshares since the 80"s and the most special assessment i've seen has been $6,000-$14,500 per week. personally i dont like points because they have no actual value. a week could be 1000 pts this year and 1200 next year.i would suggest they contact corporate to find out the facts, writing a letter has always worked best for me and i always require a signature so i can trace it if they claim it got lost. and i believe most special assessments are to fund reserves not for routine maintenance or plant upgrades.

 

[dougp26364]

Ok, so when I owned Vistana, they sent a copy of the inspection report to comply with the FL law. It also included a timeline to complete as well as financial info regarding reserves. Your parents should have asked or looked into that first. They are owned by Marriott so that info should have been available before purchasing anything.

Timeshare salesman make a living because the average consumer buys based on emotion, not facts. Fear is one of the strongest motivating emotions and timeshare sales people using it with crushing efficiency. If you want proof sit outside and watch the sales team arrive for work. Ib]ve never seen one of the senior sales team show up to work in an old beater of a car. It’s always a newer sports car or luxury sedan. The average timeshare consumer has no clue there are records they can request to,prove the salesman wrong. There’s reasons for laws giving consumers a rescind period to back out of a timeshare contract when those laws don’t apply to other major purchases.

 

[lakside]

Just returned from Vistana Villages and while I do not attend the owner updates since I know you cannot believe anything said by the staff, I was concerned about what they convinced an acquaintance to do. The last time I attended, they wanted us to convert weeks to points because it would secure a ten year stability for maintenance fees which would probably increase about 25% per year (and then a new 10 year plan for mf would be set) and it would be the only way for me to do a buy back or deed back, all for the low, low price of just $30,000. (I own 4 weeks of 2br OF Deluxe at KORV Maui). When I told them I would not choose to spend my money that way, he told me I could always take out a loan. At age 75, told him a loan did not fit into my plans. They convinced an acquaintance to make the change to points and he is convinced that after he pays his mf for 10 years he will never have to pay another mf for as long as he lives. I tried to explain that this was probably not true, but to no avail... I just wished him well and hoped he would investigate a little more.

 

[daviator]

There is no ten year, or even two year, stability for maintenance fees, as I think you know, and definitely no free MFs after ten years. What a deal that would be!

 

[sponger76]

They convinced an acquaintance to make the change to points and he is convinced that after he pays his mf for 10 years he will never have to pay another mf for as long as he lives. I tried to explain that this was probably not true, but to no avail... I just wished him well and hoped he would investigate a little more.

Just ask him to show where in his new points contract/deed (or anywhere else in writing from MVC, for that matter) it shows this no MFs after 10 years benefit.