Sapphire Resorts: Any fine print?

[StarSailer]

I wasn't expecting to buy at a timeshare presentation, but Sapphire managed to sell it.

The previous presentations (Westgate, HGVC) made a big song and dance on how much I was already going to spend traveling to try and soften me up before dropping a sticker shock of an offer. Saying no to $19K for 5600 points, even years, was easy. Sapphire's entire presentation was instead about how much cheaper they were compared to Westgate, Hilton, etc.

Sapphire's pitch:
> $7000 buy-in plus $511/year for 24,000 points every 3-years. Points can be rolled over one period, ie: expire for good after 6-years.
> 45-year membership with no equity in any particular property. No legal equity liability if we want to cancel after paying buy-in, no obligation to inherit for our heirs (but a +$3000 lifetime upgrade available if we want our kids to inherit)
> No additional fees if booking at a Sapphire Resort.
> Sapphire Resort bookings are <6,000 points per week, 4,000 points typical, giving us 4-6 weeks every 3-years. [Fact check? This one was a verbal promise]
> $299/week exchange fee if booking an RCI vacation 6,000 points or less. [Availability seems a little spotty, but the sales rep demonstrated that a wide selection of destinations were available], plus RCI Extra Vacation and RCI Quick Getaway opportunities.

10 days to cancel, and everything seems to be on the up and up... except I won't get account login creations for 14 days and I can't help but notice now that there are Sapphire Resort time shares in the TUGBBS give-away section for $0. If this is so much better than HICV/HGVC/etc then why $0 give-aways?

So...

[1] Are there any fees, fine print, availability issues, or misrepresentation that I am missing?

[2] What is $7000 buy-in getting us? The implication was that buying direct got:
> A 'Complimentary' Hawaii vacation for two, airfare included.
> RCI Extra Vacation and RCI Quick Getaway is a member perk not available for resell purchases.
> 2x suite upgrades per year when staying at Sapphire Resort locations.
> True/False/other?

 

[sue1947]

If this is so much better than HICV/HGVC/etc then why $0 give-aways?

Because that's what they are worth.
rescind. Do more research and then buy resale where you want to travel.

1. yes on the misrepresentation i.e. lies. See 2
2. RCI extra vacations and last call are available to ALL who join RCI from any member timeshare system regardless of whether it was resale or developer. if they lied here, assume everything else is also suspect. Bottom line; again, rescind, research and buy resale someplace else.
Also, those extra vacations and last calls sound great, but they are the leftovers. In other words, mud season at ski resorts and winter at the beach. You can find deals sometimes, but I belonged to RCI for many years and never used them. They weren't where I could use them and/or last minute airfare negated any savings. This is not a reason to buy any timeshare.
Those 'complimentary' resort stays tend to be extremely difficult to actually book. Dates are limited to times you aren't likely to be able to use. Again, not a reason to purchase. Buy resale and spend that $7000 you saved on the Hawaii vacation where and when you want. Take the leftover money for another vacation.

 

[TUGBrian]

rescind immediately and look at the resale market, sapphire timeshares are extremely difficult to even GIVE away, absolutely no reason to throw away thousands buying one new!

 

[StarSailer]

I'm willing to give them some slack on the RCI extra vacations and last call. That wasn't part of the prepared presentation and was an impression they left as part of a vague response when I pushed them off-script by asked about exit strategies. Particularly what a 3rd party would loose if I gave away a lifetime membership to a friend instead of passing it down to family member. Alternative motive for the question of course being what do -I- loose if I buy resell instead of from the presenters. They insisted 3rd party sales loose something but were vague/uncertain on exactly what.

Any reason why they are hard to give away? Is it because 3rd party sales loose something so significant that buying retail is actually the best way? Or because there is a hidden flaw in Sapphire itself I haven't seen yet? Or does every program without buy-back have $0 offers?

Posting here as part of the "do more research". Three days ago I had never heard of Sapphire. We originally booked our discounted vacation with presentation through Diamond, so all my research before we showed up was on Diamond / Hilton Vacation Club. Then we show up to discover the Diamond-Affiliated resort is now a Sapphire-affiliate and they've got a too-good-to-be-true offer.

 

[sue1947]

Don't give him any slack on the RCI bit. The reason that timeshares have a bad rep is the sales teams at most timeshares. There are some independent timeshares that are the exception, but most TS sales have to lie. They will take a comment from you and spin it to something that you got to have right away etc. Don't fall for it. They only get paid if they get you to buy.
Most timeshares can be had for much much less than the developer cost. It varies, but I'd say a good guess is an average of 10% or less, including the free ones. There is no difference in the developer vs resale ones, except a lot of flash that doesn't mean much of anything; certainly not thousands of dollars worth. That 'complimentary' Hawaii vacation is paid for partly by that $7K fee. Plus the sales person's commission, plus sales incentives, plus all the sales staff etc. Don't fall for it.

Diamond, now HVC, has a long history of aggressive sales as well. They aren't as difficult to give away, but personally, I'd avoid them as well. And by all means, don't even think about Westgate.

The real question is who has where and when you want to stay? If you want a school vacation week at a popular spot, then you might want to buy a fixed week at that spot; a guarantee that you have what you want each year. If you are flexible, maybe a point system works for you, as long as you understand that the popular stuff will be difficult to get. You will need to plan well in advance ( a year plus) and thoroughly understand the system you are in to make the most of it. Regardless, buy resale. You get the same thing either way, but you aren't paying for the sales teams and the incentives.

So open you mind to other options. You've covered most of the RCI related systems other than Wyndham. Look at Interval International (the other exchange system) and see who has what you want there. They also have the cash options and last minute deals like RCI. All timeshare systems are in one or the other and a few have access to both.

So where do you want to travel. How many stars and are you limited to school holidays? We can help narrow down the options. There are so many variations in timeshares that it can be overwhelming.

But first, get that rescission in. A simple letter sent with return receipt from the post office is all it takes. Then do your research.

 

[jp10558]

I'm willing to give them some slack on the RCI extra vacations and last call. That wasn't part of the prepared presentation and was an impression they left as part of a vague response when I pushed them off-script by asked about exit strategies. Particularly what a 3rd party would loose if I gave away a lifetime membership to a friend instead of passing it down to family member. Alternative motive for the question of course being what do -I- loose if I buy resell instead of from the presenters. They insisted 3rd party sales loose something but were vague/uncertain on exactly what.

Any reason why they are hard to give away? Is it because 3rd party sales loose something so significant that buying retail is actually the best way? Or because there is a hidden flaw in Sapphire itself I haven't seen yet? Or does every program without buy-back have $0 offers?

Posting here as part of the "do more research". Three days ago I had never heard of Sapphire. We originally booked our discounted vacation with presentation through Diamond, so all my research before we showed up was on Diamond / Hilton Vacation Club. Then we show up to discover the Diamond-Affiliated resort is now a Sapphire-affiliate and they've got a too-good-to-be-true offer.

I'm going to defend RCI some, but not Sapphire - rescind, go to the forum here for new to timeshare and copy over the "questions" post to make a new post with your info. You can get RCI access with any of a number of free resorts right here on TUG, heck one person keeps suggesting Magic Tree 1BR with a similar $500 a year maintenance fee and they just give those away. You can also get just the last calls via clubs like the Armed Forces Vacation Club completely for free and no yearly fee.

All that said, I think @sue1947 has a specific POV for Last Calls, and the usefulness really depends on where you live and where you want to go. I just used a last call at Smugglers Notch over the week of the 4th, and the fireworks setup they had was a BLAST. I've also used Extra Vacations for Massanutten, Vacation Village Weston, Wyndham Smoky Mountains etc. Many are in shoulder season, but it depends on when you want to go, and works best if it's drivable for you. I also find it works well by adding weeks onto a more traditionally booked vacation for cheap. You have to be able to and want to go, but like I said, Smugglers Notch VT, Massanutten in VA, Williamsburg, Myrtle Beach (though not ON the beach), Orlando and Weston, Las Vegas, Smoky Mountains area, Branson MO and others regularly show up. It's not all junk at least IMHO.

But no reason to buy Sapphire for access for that money - $7k will pay about 7 years of MFs at a cheapish resort like Grandview for a 2BR, and it'll pay ~3.5ish years at a mid range HGVC or Wyndham.

 

[StarSailer]

Hmm. Might need to rescind. A letter sent by certified mail you say?

Found a second lie. Despite the verbal suggestion of 4-6K/week the resort credit matrix they cleverly skipped showing me before signing says Sapphire's actual full-rate booking is 15-20K points for a 1-bed or 20-25K points for a 2-bed high-season.

So. Mostly this is $511/year to access the RCI <6000 point bargain-bin, plus my one 2-bed prime season sapphire home resort stay every 3 years.

I think the math works out as $1276 in maintenance fees per week actually spent in a Sapphire Resort 2-bed high-season week, which is about the exact same I've seen quoted for HGVC maintenance fees. Just with a cheaper buy-in and a spread over more time for people who want a low base cost and with added RCI Extra Vacation weeks as opportunities arise.

That... might not actually have been too bad if they had been upfront, but I suddenly don't feel any need to let the presenter have their commission.

 

[TUGBrian]

you are paying 7000 dollars for something that has zero actual monetary value...

there is no upside to this deal.

 

[tschwa2]

Sapphire traditionally has cheaper buy in's and try to sell you on those last minute 6000-9000 points weeks but those are the same kind of weeks available as last calls. They have a slightly different rci points contract so that if you want more points for a reservation it is $0.04 per point and you can't combine the contract with another more traditional rci points account. or even a resale Sapphire account. The only way to get a usable # of points once in is to buy another retail contract from Sapphire. Systemwide if you want a prime 2 BR week through RCI expect it to cost 34,000-150,000 points. The 34,000 are usually older resorts. I think the average has got to be 50,000-65,000.

 

[jp10558]

Hmm. Might need to rescind. A letter sent by certified mail you say?

Found a second lie. Despite the verbal suggestion of 4-6K/week the resort credit matrix they cleverly skipped showing me before signing says Sapphire's actual full-rate booking is 15-20K points for a 1-bed or 20-25K points for a 2-bed high-season.

So. Mostly this is $511/year to access the RCI <6000 point bargain-bin, plus my one 2-bed prime season sapphire home resort stay every 3 years.

I think the math works out as $1276 in maintenance fees per week actually spent in a Sapphire Resort 2-bed high-season week, which is about the exact same I've seen quoted for HGVC maintenance fees. Just with a cheaper buy-in and a spread over more time for people who want a low base cost and with added RCI Extra Vacation weeks as opportunities arise.

HGVC though if you went EOY you can probably get for near to free resale also. And it also has RCI access. I'm not 100% sure if the club dues are yearly if you only have 1 EOY deed in HGVC though, I tend to think annual makes sense and just borrow from the future if you want to use EOY in more expensive places. I.e get a 1BR for 5600 annual points for a potentially lower MF, or go for Scotland (probably about the same buy in resale as Sapphire) at ~$1,200 MF for a 2BR / 11,200pts annual...

Though TBH if you just want RCI access and don't care about a specific system / location to do it then you probably could do what I'm currently doing and look for a Grandview being given away with MFs that you like, and maybe $800 in transfer fees, OR again actually this would be a reason to consider Magic Tree in Orlando (assuming it works like claimed here on TUG) and just get a free 1BR direct from them and enroll in RCI and pay the normal ~$110 RCI annual membership fee and the $500 MFs... You'd get every year a stay in Orlando, or for the ~$400 additional exchange fee plus likely resort fees (i.e. $900ish) pull mid 1BR anywhere RCI had an available exchange. And you get all the RCI extra vacations and last calls you want to buy whenever.

 

[StarSailer]

Sapphire traditionally has cheaper buy in's and try to sell you on those last minute 6000-9000 points weeks but those are the same kind of weeks available as last calls. They have a slightly different rci points contract so that if you want more points for a reservation it is $0.04 per point and you can't combine the contract with another more traditional rci points account. or even a resale Sapphire account. The only way to get a usable # of points once in is to buy another retail contract from Sapphire. Systemwide if you want a prime 2 BR week through RCI expect it to cost 34,000-150,000 points. The 34,000 are usually older resorts. I think the average has got to be 50,000-65,000.

I suspected it would be something like that when the sales rep showed me the RCI website with 4000 point destinations listed as promotional rates over a 30,000-45,000 number that had been crossed out. They insisted that Sapphire had a special lower rate with RCI, sort of like the difference between HGVC points and Hilton hotel points .

Still it was interesting to see how easy it was to travel on 1-3 month notice to a last call. Or at least how easy it was to find an August-October last-call. Not sure how representative that is compared to the May-July last-call picks we would need to find to travel with family in the school year so after we rescind this offer it wounds like we will need to budget for more points to guarantee an every-other-year 2-bed prime season summer trip.

Do we need the return receipt certified mail option?

 

[heitmullerj02]

HGVC, look on eBay and make a bid. Maintenance fees are typical $1500 (2 bed, lock off) but the resorts are so nice and they don't treat you any different. free RCI access to extra vacations and last call.

 

[moonstone]

Do we need the return receipt certified mail option?

You need to mail the letter exactly how they say in your paperwork, to the address that is given, so as not to give them an excuse not to honour your request. Get a proof of mailing receipt, it is that date that counts, not when they get it. Congrats on finding TUG and saving yourself thousands!

We can stay at the same resort, in the same or larger size unit, on the same week, with our free timeshare as any poor guy who paid thousands or tens of thousands for theirs.


~Diane

 

[StarSailer]

THE SAPPHIRE RESORT FINE PRINT

Sapphire's pitch:
> $7000 buy-in plus $511/year for 24,000 points every 3-years. Points can be rolled over one period, ie: expire for good after 6-years.

True, True, Misleading. The "Use Term" is the allocated use year, not the triennial period as I was lead to believe. Points/Credits for a use year may either be borrowed for use in the previous year or carried over one period (year). With a single triennial membership you will have some years with zero points.

If you want to travel in a zero-point year your only option is to book a last-call cash option or pay for an RCI Extra Vacations cash trip. RCI membership is currently included in membership dues and will probably continue to be for years to come but is not a perpetual guarantee.

> 45-year membership with no equity in any particular property. No legal equity liability if we want to cancel after paying buy-in, no obligation to inherit for our heirs (but a +$3000 lifetime upgrade available if we want our kids to inherit)
> No additional fees if booking at a Sapphire Resort.

True and True. However there is a $99 cancellation fee if you change your mind about a booking. The salesman forgot to mention that fee when suggestion one could always make an advanced reservation if they were concerned about last-call availability which could be cancelled later if/when a better rate/location opened up. He also forgot to mention when claiming reservations could be cancelled at any time that one starts to forfeit a percentage of the credits for cancellations within 180 days of check-in. (Last call is 45 days before check-in).

> Sapphire Resort bookings are <6,000 points per week, 4,000 points typical, giving us 4-6 weeks every 3-years. [Fact check? This one was a verbal promise]
> $299/week exchange fee if booking an RCI vacation 6,000 points or less. [Availability seems a little spotty, but the sales rep demonstrated that a wide selection of destinations were available], plus RCI Extra Vacation and RCI Quick Getaway opportunities.

FALSE! Those are last call clearance rates. Actually early booking rates run from 12,500cr for the median Studio up to 25,000 for the median 2BR.
The RCI exchange fee bit was true, but in practice you might as well just pay the full cash rate if booking last-call.

With advanced reservations those 24,000 points are good for only 1 week in a deluxe 1BR. Maybe 2 weeks off-season with 1 week in a studio and the second in a standard 1BR. Every retail purchase does qualify for the VIP program which offer an accommodation upgrades up to twice a year. That might let the 24K credits stretch to fit a 2BR week once a year (subject to VIP fine print and availability).

I suspected it would be something like that when the sales rep showed me the RCI website with 4000 point destinations listed as promotional rates over a 30,000-45,000 number that had been crossed out. They insisted that Sapphire had a special lower rate with RCI, sort of like the difference between HGVC points and Hilton hotel points .

TRUE! Technically. It isn't a discounted rate, but all RCI partner portals display rates converted to your home club's point/credit currency. 1 Sapphire credit is more than 1 RCI point, so the Sapphire-RCI portal will show lower rates than RCI-Points which will show lower rates than Wyndham-RCI. (The crossed-out rates I had seen were the point equivalents for Last Call or Extra Vacation sale promotions).

A final claim not mentioned earlier:
"Weeks can be split into 3-night weekends / 4-night weekdays for travelers if you want to book a shorter stay".
Misleading. There was only a passing mention in the fine print for weekends vs weekdays and a customer service rep we managed to get on the phone stated early booking was for full weeks only with split weeks only an option closer to check in subject to availability.

Bottom line
Sapphire 1BR High Season: $1025, maybe just $925 depending on VIP upgrade availability.
Sapphire 2BR High Season: $1710, maybe just $1440 depending on VIP upgrade availability.
Guesstimating an extra +10% plus exchange fees if trading into a better Silver Crown resort on RCI.
RCI: Last Call and Extra Vacation can be great, but availability is usual low/mid season. Great deals for Orlando in the Fall right now but basically nothing if you hoped to see the leaves change colors in the Smoky Mountains.

Sapphire seems like it might be a good fit for:
a) People who want to shop RCI last call clearance for off-season travel and consider the home system credits a free bonus. (The only group where the Triennial package is actually a good fit. )
b) People who want to stay full weeks at Sapphire locations and also care more about the destination city than the resort.
c) People who have travel plans that require frequent trading and exchange fees anyway.
d) People who want to be card-carrying VIPs for some reason but can't afford retail from one of the big names.

None of the above describe me so my rescind has been mailed. Certified, with return receipt, posted within 10-days of purchase per rescind clause.
I'll let y'all know when it clears so you can add my little tiny $8K to the money saved talley.