Ritz Carlton Developer Week

[TouristTrap]

I have a deposit on a 1/12 Fractional Share at the Ritz Carlton Aspen Highlands. I have 60 days to walk so I'm not sure if this deal makes sense. Currently I have a favorable situation where my parents are 25 year owners of developer weeks enrolled in the points program. I have been a student of TUG and have learned to leverage their weeks by vacationing during non prime/midweek stays. But my sister's family and my family is growing and looking to the future, we will only be able to vacation during school holidays . Plus we would like to do a ski week every year together.

So I came across a listing on Redweek for the RC Aspen Highlands. It turns out Ritz Carlton has a limited number of developer weeks that they are selling with the option to convert to Destination Points. The winter preferred weeks are 2 consecutive ski weeks in the winter, 1 summer week, and 1 floating shoulder season week. The weeks rotate through the calendar but the units are fixed. The purchase price for a three bedroom unit is $90,000 with annual HOA of $15,300.

What's interesting, there is no skim on the points. If your week is Jan. 1-7 you get 8,325 points. If your week falls on New Years, you receive 17,275 points for that week. The float week receives 3,850 points every year. The average is around 30,000 points for all 4 weeks.

This is a huge commitment for us. But with a partnership between two families it starts to look attractive. I am looking at this purely as a points play so my concern is the stability of the management contract. It is probably more points than we need but we can rent the excess points or try and rent a prime week on redweek. Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[GregT]

I have a deposit on a 1/12 Fractional Share at the Ritz Carlton Aspen Highlands. I have 60 days to walk so I'm not sure if this deal makes sense. Currently I have a favorable situation where my parents are 25 year owners of developer weeks enrolled in the points program. I have been a student of TUG and have learned to leverage their weeks by vacationing during non prime/midweek stays. But my sister's family and my family is growing and looking to the future, we will only be able to vacation during school holidays . Plus we would like to do a ski week every year together.

So I came across a listing on Redweek for the RC Aspen Highlands. It turns out Ritz Carlton has a limited number of developer weeks that they are selling with the option to convert to Destination Points. The winter preferred weeks are 2 consecutive ski weeks in the winter, 1 summer week, and 1 floating shoulder season week. The weeks rotate through the calendar but the units are fixed. The purchase price for a three bedroom unit is $90,000 with annual HOA of $15,300.

What's interesting, there is no skim on the points. If your week is Jan. 1-7 you get 8,325 points. If your week falls on New Years, you receive 17,275 points for that week. The float week receives 3,850 points every year. The average is around 30,000 points for all 4 weeks.

This is a huge commitment for us. But with a partnership between two families it starts to look attractive. I am looking at this purely as a points play so my concern is the stability of the management contract. It is probably more points than we need but we can rent the excess points or try and rent a prime week on redweek. Please let me know your thoughts.

I am not sure I follow what your goal is with the week and the transaction. I believe you are buying 4 weeks, with MFs of $15,300, for a total of $90K (please confirm this assumption).

Are you buying these so that you can vacation at Aspen Highlands?

Are you buying these as a points generator, looking to acquire ~30,000 points annually (for a MF cost of $15,300 -- or approx $0.50 per point)

This is truly a luxury item, so I hope this is not a financial hardship to you.

I think I am missing something, because buying 30,000 points annually for $90K is a reasonable price for those points, even at the MFs of $15,300. If this is a resale, does Marriott really allow it to be enrolled?

My apologies for the confusion here, please comment and I will try to be more helpful.

Best,

Greg

Edited to add: If you parents have developer weeks that have been enrolled, why not just rent loads of points for $0.50 - $0.55 each and keep the $90K? I would think your parents would let you use their account for reservations?

 

[LisaH]

Edited to add: If you parents have developer weeks that have been enrolled, why not just rent loads of points for $0.50 - $0.55 each and keep the $90K? I would think your parents would let you use their account for reservations?

That's a great suggestion. Greg, what's the going rate for points rental?

 

[bogey21]

Reminds me of when I splurged and bought a Monarch Crown Suite when my family was young and we knew we would use the Week year after year going forward.

I like the deal with a number of "ifs". If you can afford it; If you really like the Resort; If you (or family members) definitely want to ski at the Resort every year; If you can make use of the non-ski Weeks; and if you and your family are at an age where use will use it for say the next 10 years. Answer "yes" to all and I say go for it. IMO locking in 2 consecutive ski weeks is the key.

George

 

[TouristTrap]

Sorry for the confusing post. The purchase is for 4 weeks directly from RC. $90,000 for approx. 30,000 annual points with $15,300 MF. You can use your weeks, trade within RC system, or convert to DC points. We tried renting points for the first time. The transaction couldn't have been any smoother but we are wait listed for New Years week at summit watch. If the res. doesn't come through the points will probably go to waste. We rented 2015 points.

I see utilizing the points more than the weeks. I would not consider this without the options and flexibility of points.

 

[SueDonJ]

The overall Ritz-Carlton / Marriott Vacations Worldwide relationship is questionable right now with several lawsuits pending and a couple R-C owners' associations voting recently to sever the relationship. I don't know how the Aspen property in particular is being impacted but I would want to hear from a few owners for their perspective before considering any purchase.

{ETA} You can find some of the history in this thread on the Non-traditional Interval Ownership Tug forum: [ 2012 ] Letter from the Ritz Carlton Destination Club If you post to that thread (or any of the others that are linked in that thread) you may be able to connect with Aspen owners.

 

[55plus]

Ninety Thousand dollars ($90,000.00) invest will give you a lot of ski vacations for a very log time, and it won 't cost you $15,000.00 in maintenance fees.

Bottom-line: They want you to give them $90,000.00 so they can bill you $15,000.00 annually. Do you see what you're considering doing?

 

[frank808]

Sorry for the confusing post. The purchase is for 4 weeks directly from RC. $90,000 for approx. 30,000 annual points with $15,300 MF. You can use your weeks, trade within RC system, or convert to DC points. We tried renting points for the first time. The transaction couldn't have been any smoother but we are wait listed for New Years week at summit watch. If the res. doesn't come through the points will probably go to waste. We rented 2015 points.

I see utilizing the points more than the weeks. I would not consider this without the options and flexibility of points.

Why pay $90k to get points for about 50 cents. Why not save the $90k and just rent the points for 50 or 55 cents? At 55 cents a point it will take over 120 years to break even with the $90k buy in ( if you rent points at 55 cents minus the 50 cents you would be paying in maintenance fees). I would not buy this for a DC points generator. Especially because you say 30000 pts a year is to much and the math doesn't work out.

 

[GregT]

Why pay $90k to get points for about 50 cents. Why not save the $90k and just rent the points for 50 or 55 cents? At 55 cents a point it will take over 120 years to break even with the $90k buy in ( if you rent points at 55 cents minus the 50 cents you would be paying in maintenance fees). I would not buy this for a DC points generator. Especially because you say 30000 pts a year is to much and the math doesn't work out.

This is in line with my thinking. I would just rent lots of points and save the up-front cost. This is an interesting way to acquire lots of points though.

I would also be concerned about MF escalation. There is a different thread discussing how fees have doubled in 8 years. If they double again, then the Ritz points (really, all points - and timeshares in general) will be ridiculously expensive.

What is interesting about this is the clear devaluation of the Ritz properties - formerly sold at a premium, now at a "discount".

Best,

Greg

 

[nakyak]

This is in line with my thinking. I would just rent lots of points and save the up-front cost. This is an interesting way to acquire lots of points though.

I would also be concerned about MF escalation. There is a different thread discussing how fees have doubled in 8 years. If they double again, then the Ritz points (really, all points - and timeshares in general) will be ridiculously expensive.

What is interesting about this is the clear devaluation of the Ritz properties - formerly sold at a premium, now at a "discount".

Best,

Greg

I would be hesitant purchasing just for the points play as the OP mentioned. I'm not confident Marriott will retain this property long term. The owner base is not happy about having affiliated with MVC points and a potential play in the management contact might be forthcoming like we saw at other RCDC locations.

Aspen likely has the owner base to support a vote meeting the required thresholds to change management companies.

 

[TouristTrap]

I was told by the broker that the Management contract comes up for renewal in 2016. It is an automatic renewal with a 5 year term. What I don't understand is why Marriott is selling these shares at resale prices. Why not just fold them into the trust like they did at RC Vail?

 

[SueDonJ]

I was told by the broker that the Management contract comes up for renewal in 2016. It is an automatic renewal with a 5 year term. What I don't understand is why Marriott is selling these shares at resale prices. Why not just fold them into the trust like they did at RC Vail?

It sounds like the R-C Aspen Management Contract is similar to what's found in most of the MVCI Management Contracts, with auto renewals for specified time periods. But the governing documents also allow for the ownership to vote out MVW as manager if the qualifying quorum/majority is met. That's what happened at a couple other R-C properties following MVW's initial integration of them with the Destination Club (which didn't include conveyances but opened up availability to DC Members through the DC Explorer Collection,) and it's why you should be searching out Aspen owners to see which way the wind is blowing there.

R-C Vail isn't the only R-C property that has had intervals conveyed to the Trust; St. Thomas, San Francisco and Lake Tahoe have all been recently conveyed. The DC governing documents have also recently been amended to re-define Luxury Property to include R-C intervals and to establish unique Reservation Windows applicable to R-C intervals through the DC. (See these Recorded Trust Documents and Changes to Reservation and Exchange Procedures ... TUG threads.) Not sure why Aspen hasn't been yet, and it may happen anytime, but it's again another reason to flesh out exactly how the ownership is responding to the MVW integration between R-C Clubs and the Destination Club.

 

[EducatedConsumer]

I have a deposit on a 1/12 Fractional Share at the Ritz Carlton Aspen Highlands. I have 60 days to walk so I'm not sure if this deal makes sense. Currently I have a favorable situation where my parents are 25 year owners of developer weeks enrolled in the points program. I have been a student of TUG and have learned to leverage their weeks by vacationing during non prime/midweek stays. But my sister's family and my family is growing and looking to the future, we will only be able to vacation during school holidays . Plus we would like to do a ski week every year together.

So I came across a listing on Redweek for the RC Aspen Highlands. It turns out Ritz Carlton has a limited number of developer weeks that they are selling with the option to convert to Destination Points. The winter preferred weeks are 2 consecutive ski weeks in the winter, 1 summer week, and 1 floating shoulder season week. The weeks rotate through the calendar but the units are fixed. The purchase price for a three bedroom unit is $90,000 with annual HOA of $15,300.

What's interesting, there is no skim on the points. If your week is Jan. 1-7 you get 8,325 points. If your week falls on New Years, you receive 17,275 points for that week. The float week receives 3,850 points every year. The average is around 30,000 points for all 4 weeks.

This is a huge commitment for us. But with a partnership between two families it starts to look attractive. I am looking at this purely as a points play so my concern is the stability of the management contract. It is probably more points than we need but we can rent the excess points or try and rent a prime week on redweek. Please let me know your thoughts.

My suggestion, CANCEL AND RUN!, but that's a decision that you have to make and feel comfortable with.

Take a close look at the history of each and every Ritz-Carlton Club, through public documents, Internet searches, and conversations with members, and you will discover that the entire "stack of matchbooks" that the Ritz-Carlton Club was built on is highly vulnerable. Look no further than Bachelor Gulch.

Then, if you get bored, read about The Ritz-Carlton Club, Kapalua, The Ritz-Carlton Club, Abaco, The Ritz-Carlton Golf Club and Spa, Jupiter, The Ritz-Carlton Club and Residences, South Beach, The Ritz-Carlton Club, Santa Barbara, and the list goes on (and on).

If you are OK with paying a very premium price to own a fractional deeded interest in a place than may very well one day NOT have the Ritz-Carlton name on it, and may VERY WELL NOT have associated Ritz-Carlton Club/MVCI benefits with it, than maybe what you are considering is OK.

I think that most very informed consumers that know enough about the Ritz-Carlton Club past would run as fast as they could from what you are considering.

 

[EducatedConsumer]

Sorry for the confusing post. The purchase is for 4 weeks directly from RC. $90,000 for approx. 30,000 annual points with $15,300 MF. You can use your weeks, trade within RC system, or convert to DC points. We tried renting points for the first time. The transaction couldn't have been any smoother but we are wait listed for New Years week at summit watch. If the res. doesn't come through the points will probably go to waste. We rented 2015 points.

I see utilizing the points more than the weeks. I would not consider this without the options and flexibility of points.

You say, "I would not consider this without the options and flexibility of the points."

What good are the weeks to you, if management of The Ritz-Carlton Club, Aspen Highlands goes to some other management company, and in doing so, you lose all Ritz-Carlton Club and Marriott Vacation Club benefits?

It's a shame that the volumes of information from the Bachelor Gulch Board and their consultants, that previously existed on a website, were taken down, as they told a very telling story, and provided a very balanced look at the inside of The Ritz-Carlton Club.

 

[FractionalTraveler]

I have a deposit on a 1/12 Fractional Share at the Ritz Carlton Aspen Highlands. I have 60 days to walk so I'm not sure if this deal makes sense. Currently I have a favorable situation where my parents are 25 year owners of developer weeks enrolled in the points program. I have been a student of TUG and have learned to leverage their weeks by vacationing during non prime/midweek stays. But my sister's family and my family is growing and looking to the future, we will only be able to vacation during school holidays . Plus we would like to do a ski week every year together.

So I came across a listing on Redweek for the RC Aspen Highlands. It turns out Ritz Carlton has a limited number of developer weeks that they are selling with the option to convert to Destination Points. The winter preferred weeks are 2 consecutive ski weeks in the winter, 1 summer week, and 1 floating shoulder season week. The weeks rotate through the calendar but the units are fixed. The purchase price for a three bedroom unit is $90,000 with annual HOA of $15,300.

What's interesting, there is no skim on the points. If your week is Jan. 1-7 you get 8,325 points. If your week falls on New Years, you receive 17,275 points for that week. The float week receives 3,850 points every year. The average is around 30,000 points for all 4 weeks.

This is a huge commitment for us. But with a partnership between two families it starts to look attractive. I am looking at this purely as a points play so my concern is the stability of the management contract. It is probably more points than we need but we can rent the excess points or try and rent a prime week on redweek. Please let me know your thoughts.

I would offer $50K max or walk. That's a nice property and pocket change for 4 weeks a year. You can rent what you don't intend to use. It will rent for decent income.

FT

 

[jeepie]

I'm sure I am missing something, but would the OP actually lose what they bought if there is an ownership change? Wouldn't the weeks and points still have to be honored? Thanks.

 

[SueDonJ]

I'm sure I am missing something, but would the OP actually lose what they bought if there is an ownership change? Wouldn't the weeks and points still have to be honored? Thanks.

The OP would retain his Weeks/fractional ownership but it wouldn't be under Marriott management anymore, and MVW would have the right to terminate the affiliate agreements between those owners and the Marriott Rewards, Ritz-Carlton Rewards, and Destination Club programs. That's what has happened with the former Ritz-Carlton properties at Bachelor Gulch, Jupiter and Kapalua Bay, which are now managed by the Timbers Resorts company.

 

[SueDonJ]

... It's a shame that the volumes of information from the Bachelor Gulch Board and their consultants, that previously existed on a website, were taken down, as they told a very telling story, and provided a very balanced look at the inside of The Ritz-Carlton Club.

You're right. I've spent quite a bit of time searching the web for R-C Aspen info and/or ownership groups and haven't found anything. While searching I came across the same thing you did, that info formerly available regarding the now-separated R-C properties has all but disappeared. Makes sense I guess, that Timbers would want to clean it all up so that their prospects wouldn't come across it, but it also makes research difficult for those who are considering R-C.

 

[SMHarman]

So if the residual value is 25% over 10 years that is 150 in Mr and 70 in capital.
220k.
That gets 440k points or other vacations.
And in time you can potentiality inherent the parental Voi.
Why commit to this?

 

[bogey21]

Why commit to this?

To get the two guaranteed ski weeks every year.

George

 

[SMHarman]

To get the two guaranteed ski weeks every year.

George

At $22k a year you can rent those weeks cash there or even other Ski resorts.

Timeandplace.com has some sweet rentals at $2k a night.

 

[TouristTrap]

The MF of $15,300 is for 4 weeks. 3 bedroom ski weeks can rent for $6,000+. Susan, I appreciate your help. I have not been able to find anything either. I am encouraged there are no weeks available for rent on redweek and the wait list was full for a 2016 week I called marriott for. It seems the owners are using their weeks. I was able to find a list of recent sales published by the local newspaper. They were selling shares for much less than what is currently being offered. You can see the list here.

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/165141

 

[amanda14]

Given past history and the financials aside, I would be inclined to stay away from anything tied in with RC and the word points in conjunction with Marriott.

 

[WBP]

You're right. I've spent quite a bit of time searching the web for R-C Aspen info and/or ownership groups and haven't found anything. While searching I came across the same thing you did, that info formerly available regarding the now-separated R-C properties has all but disappeared. Makes sense I guess, that Timbers would want to clean it all up so that their prospects wouldn't come across it, but it also makes research difficult for those who are considering R-C.

I tried to upload an excellent report that was prepared for the then Ritz-Carlton Club, Bachelor Gulch HOA by very respectable consultants, but the TUG website produced repeated errors in my attempts to upload the PDF.

 

[SueDonJ]

I tried to upload an excellent report that was prepared for the then Ritz-Carlton Club, Bachelor Gulch HOA by very respectable consultants, but the TUG website produced repeated errors in my attempts to upload the PDF.

In the past Brian has uploaded a couple PDF's for me when asked. He should be able to help if you send him an email at tug~AT~tug2~DOT~net with the attachment. Please be sure to reference this thread, and let me know if you have any problems. Thank you!