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RAW vs JPEG vs TIFF

bigrick

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At the NorCal TUGgers lunch last Saturday the getawayguy (Ty) had a Kodak Easyshare Z712IS camera. Very nice! Quick, easy shots if you want. More complicated shots available too, as your heart desires! Good 10x zoom (which our current camera lacks) and 7 megapixels.

Last month when talking to a fellow ancestry researcher, I was told one important camera factor I needed was the TIFF file format.

So I looked around a bit yesterday to see if the specs for the Z712IS. The only format is JPEG. I found cameras like the Olympus evolt E-510 that could do RAW and JPEG but no mention of TIFF.

But the Olympus may be more complicated for my wife than the Z712IS. She can learn though if it also has the same ease of use.

My primary question here is about the formats. What's the importance of RAW and TIFF? What do I gain by having those? What cameras with these formats do you use and recommend?
 
JPEG is a compressed format. That means that anytime a JPEG is created, even by the camera, there is loss of information. Further anytime a JPEG file is resaved and the file is closed by the image processing program, there is loss of information. That's true even if you specify maximum file size during a JPEG save. RAW and TIFF are both lossless formats.

RAW is essentially the output from the camera light sensor without any processing to create an image. To convert the RAW to an image requires a conversion program; the software to do that will come with the camera. The software to convert a RAW is often proprietary to the manufacturer of the camera. Adobe also makes some products for handling RAW files.

The RAW conversion software does involve some photo manipulation during the conversion process. Essentially, the RAW file is not an image, but the ingredients for creating an image. The user still needs to provide the recipe to be followed to convert those ingredients to an image. A RAW file can be processed repeatedly, with different settings, to create different versions of the same image.

After processing a RAW file to create a photo, you need to select a format in which to save the photo. TIFF is one of the possible formats. TIFF does not support EXIF file information (that's useful data about the picture that is stored with the file, such as exposure settings, date and time photo taken, the type of camera). Also TIFF files do not support layers, which are essential in working with photo processing programs, so TIFF is not often selected as the save format for a photo. Most users will convert the file to .PSD file, i.e., Adobe Photoshop, for final processing.

*****

I also use a Kodak EasyShare which outputs only in JPEG format. (Wish I could do DLSR, but that's not in the budget right now. :bawl:) To minimize image loss when the camera doesn't provide RAW format, do the following:

  1. Save all JPEG files output from the camera in special folders and do not resave them into that folder.
  2. Open the image in a photo processing program, and resave the file in a lossless format. Your best choice is to use the native format for that program, i.e., as a .PSD file if you use Photoshop or if .PSP if you use Corel Paint Shop Pro (as I do).

From that point on, do all of your photo management using the file in lossless format. Also, when I begin working with a Photo in Paint Shop Pro, the first thing I do is duplicate the background layer. Since I haven't done any edits to the image, the background layer is, essentially, the unedited original. I then do all of my manipulations on the copy of the background layer, not the original background, thereby preserving a copy of the unedited original within my .PSP file.

When I have an image I am ready to publish, I do a File->Save As to save the current working image as a JPEG, and I also resave the file as a PSP image. That allows me to go back into the file and do additional processing without causing a loss in image quality. For example, yesterday I was looking at some photos I recently worked on and saw that one of the photos had a bluish color cast I had forgotten to correct. I simply reopened the .PSP file, removed the blue tinge, and resaved to the same JPEG. Now I had the identical image with the cast removed. Had I opened the photo as a JPEG, removed the cast, and resaved the photo I would have had a loss of image quality.

*****

Note that the process I outlined above does produce 2nd generation JPEGs - 1st generation is the camera output, and when I resave as a JPEG there is the inevitable loss. I save with minimum compression, and so far that loss of quality has not been a problem. Were that an issue, though, I can always open my .PSP file and save as a TIFF instead of JPEG without loss of quality.

I use JPEGs instead of TIFFs because of the smaller file size. When you start saving RAW files, and .PSD or .PSP files, the file storage requirements increase dramatically. Using JPEGs for published versions helps keep that under control a bit.

***

The EasyShare camera will be fine for your wife and for most picture taking purposes. Take pictures using the most detailed (highest photo quality) settings. As long as you don't crop or use digital zoom, you should be able to print up to 8x10 size without a problem. (In fact, never use digital zoom. Go into your camera settings and disable digital zoom. If you want to get closer than what the optical zoom will provide you are better off doing so by cropping in a photo program than by trying to work with the digital zoom. DZ is a worthless feature. The true zoom of your camera is the optical zoom, not the combined digital and optical zoom.)

If you start getting into more serious image manipulation and processing, you will quickly note the optical limitations of your camera. A fixed lens camera simply cannot produce a photo free of chromatic aberrations and other optic defects. Most times those are not observable unless you blow up the photo, but if you start working with contrast and color levels, the optical defects start becoming noticeable. To produce quality, optical defect free images you need to spend money on glass, which means DLSR cameras with higher quality lenses. Look at KristinB's photos of animals on the Picture of the Day thread. Note how sharp and detailed the images are and how crisp the edges are. That's because she uses quality lenses, and she really, really, really knows how to use that glass to advantage.
 
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Good explanation Steve.

However, compression does not necessarily mean lossy. There are lossless and lossy compression formats. For example, zip is a lossless compression format.

JPG is a lossy format. Lossy means you don't necessarily get the same bits back when you uncompress the format. Common video and music compression formats like mpg and mp3 and aac are also lossy, but most of us can't tell the difference. Most cameras allow you to chose the compression level, which loosely translates to the amount of loss of information you might get in a photo image. It turns out that for most of us, it doesn't matter that these formats are lossy, but you wouldn't use a lossy compression format with important computer data.

For any amateur photographer, JPG is fine. You won't be able to distinguish the difference. If you want to blow up 8x10 portraits, then you may want a camera that offers a lossless format, but it takes a lot of space to store it on the flash card.

-David (still a geek)
 
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Good explanation Steve.

However, compression does not necessarily mean lossy. There are lossless and lossy compression formats. For example, zip is a lossless compression format.

True. And if we want to further process nits, it's not totally accurate to say the RAW is the output from the light sensor. The camera does some processing before creating the RAW, the most important of which is probably noise reduction.
 
For any amateur photographer, JPG is fine. You won't be able to distinguish the difference. If you want to blow up 8x10 portraits, then you may want a camera that offers a lossless format, but it takes a lot of space to store it on the flash card.

-David (still a geek)

Generally true with most newer cameras and working with the cameras set to produce the highest quality (usually the "Fine JPEG" setting). If people are still using an older 2 megapixel camera image degradation is often starts to become noticeable after the file is opened and saved the third or fourth time. Also, if the user doesn't specify maximum file size for the JPEG file (e.g., they might accept a default setting that is about mid-range) image degradation will occur more quickly. If the do cropping and enlargement, degradation will also show up more quickly. And even if they are using a newer camera, if they don't have the camera set for maximum detail, image degradation can occur quickly.

I have some photos from my early digital days that can't be printed any larger than 3x5, and even at that size pixellation can be seen.
 
You're not going to find any cameras that output to TIFF anymore -- Adobe owns the copyright to the spec. Besides, the files are huge, and you really don't gain anything over RAW...

With one exception. The authors of Roadside Geology of Hawai'i want to use one of my photos of Kilauea in the next edition of that book - should it go through another edition. If that happens, I will likely need to provide a version of the photo in TIFF for publishing.
 
Not many people use TIFF for photos (for the reasons mentioned above). I shoot in the least compressed JPG usually to save space unless I am doing portraits, in which case I use RAW because I find that the skin tones and lighting are very important to get right. Even with the least compressed JPG, I find that the colors start to look unnatural unless it's in RAW.

RAW creates very large files so if you are planning on setting up some serious storage, you might not find it useful for everyday work.

Katherine
 
RAW creates very large files so if you are planning on setting up some serious storage, you might not find it useful for everyday work.

Katherine

That's nothing compared with file sizes that build as you start adding adjustment Photoshop adjustment layers!!
 
Thank you all for your replies. You are much easier to understand than my own research.

Steve, I'll save your details on minimizing image loss. I've seen some of your shots and now have your "secrets" to success. Thanks for that.

Knowing this can be done, I got the Kodak EasyShare. The biggest change we needed from our current camera was more pixels which is now done.

I'll get back to a (D)SLR in the future. For now we'll be simpler and I don't have to drool over lenses just yet.
 
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