Points systems vs. traditional timeshare owenership

[JLCEA]

I Would like to hear your opinions about the Points Timeshare Systems (Hilton, Farilfield...) vs the traditional Timeshare Ownership.
I am quite new at this. I have been following this forum for a month (really useful) and I trust your opinion (no one better than your expertise).
I find the points systems very flexible to choose your vacation week and destination. What are the cons? High MFs, difficult resale?
Thanks in advance.
Greetings from Spain!!!

 

[Carolinian]

With points you are at the mercy of the developer whenever they want to move the goalposts. One such problem is when they want to move on to something else, such as a new type of points, leaving the old ones devalued, as has happened with several points system around the world. Or they may just quit selling, leaving a system that is gradually decaying with decreased opportunities to trade and rising maintenance fees (Peppertree/Equivest points after they were taken over by Cendant / Fairfield is a good example of this).

 

[timeos2]

Beware oversimplified answers

With weeks you are at the mercy of the developer whenever they want to move the goalposts. One such problem is when they want to move on to something else, such as a new type section of buildings, leaving the old ones devalued, as has happened with several resorts around the world. Or they may just quit selling, leaving a resort that is gradually decaying with decreased opportunities to trade and rising maintenance fees.

No system/resort is perfect so buy carefully. Buy resale which means you know the ease and going rate for selling and buy what you plan to use. That last item isn't limited to a single resort/week when you speak about points systems. Instead you plan to use the many resorts in the system more often than trading outside the system. In almost 20 years the points value under the Wyndham (formerly Fairfield) system hasn't changed except in a few isolated, minor cases. Can the same be said about the trade value of a week purchased 20 years ago? The points systems, if properly operated, do offer flexibility and, at resale pricing, value unmatched by most weeks ownerships. But do be careful for just like there are plenty of bad choices in a weeks resorts there can be traps in points systems as well. Research, know what you want, what they offer and buy at the right price. There are great deals and values out there in multi-resort systems. And there can be great values in traditional timeshares as well. What do you plan to do with your ownership will help define which would work best for you.
__________________

 

[somerville]

I recommend that you avoid a points system that is not tied to a deeded week that you own, because unless the owners have the right to manage the system, the developer can retain control forever and can raise fees at will.

 

[gabenluke]

You are not talking about RCI points are you? I think they are great. I used extra points to purchase one of our airfares to Hawaii this past Sept and was able to stay in Hawaii for 2 weeks. Very happy with them.' JMHO though.

Gabenluke

 

[DanM]

Most people here will tell you to buy something, points or weeks, that represents a week at a resort that you would like to use...repeatedly. That is the best security against developers, point system changes, and the vagaries of weeks' trade value.

That said, I prefer weeks to points because if you are careful and do your homework you can play the system to "trade up." With points, you are simply substituting points for money...similar to airline points...and I can look for a deal with money without learning the ins and outs of a point system. I know there are points lovers who have their own systems, but the bottom line is that every points system has developed a secondary market where everyone knows what a point is worth in cash. For most points owners, using points is no different than using dollars, francs, or euros. What's the fun in that?

 

[short]

I vote for points.

A good points system allows you do reserve several different season of varying size all with the same weeks value.

I own HGVC points and find them much more realistic with trading a plat. 2 bedroom for many different combinations of size and season. In a regular weeks for week system I would I would certainly not get the full value of my plat week.

Short

 

[BocaBum99]

With weeks, you only have a couple of choices to keep yourself happy. Buy a week that you will use or rent most of the time. If you buy something decent for trading, you can occasionally get something good for exchange. The exchange options are getting worse and worse every year. Our friend Carolinian is a good example of this type of weeks owners. He is down to only a couple of timeshares because it just doesn't meet his needs as much anymore. And he is one of the sharpest.

With points, the World is your oyster. You can do almost anything from simply getting great vacations every year, to travelling for free, to retire from your career and timesharing full time. Smart points owners keep aggregating more and more points at the same time smart weeks owners are reducing their portfolios. That should tell you by itself what is better.

I believe what frustrates long time weeks experts is that the knowledge you need to be good in weeks is dramatically different than the knowledge you need to be good at points.

 

[travelguy]

Weeks, Points and the next wave of Travel

I generally agree with Boca.

IMHO, Here are my thoughts:

Weeks -
1. Harder to use as time goes by
2. Are providing less great trades than they used to.
3. Are good for the old notion of "use what you own"
4. May be financial time bombs as maintenance and renovations are needed.

Points -
1. Were developed as a more flexible (and therefore more salable) version of weeks ownership.
2. Are still easy to manipulate IF you know what you're doing.
3. Are VERY different depending on which points system (I use HGVC)
4. Are slowly becoming less attractive than they once were.
5. May eventually go the way that weeks are going.

The next wave of Travel - Destination Clubs (like High Country Club)
1. Are affordable with better quality residences (million dollar+ homes)
2. Have multiple locations worldwide that continually INCREASE as membership increases for no additional cost
3. Have easy availability with no extended searches or trading strategy.
4. DO NOT INVOLVE DEVELOPERS AND EXCHANGE COMPANIES!

There are also other alternatives like Fractionals & Residence Clubs (IMHO, expensive and mostly restrict locations) and Condotels (very expensive and the headaches of resort real estate investment).

Keep in mind that I own all three and have been trading timeshares for over 20 years. I have been moving out of traditional weeks ownership, keeping my HGVC points but buying no more and have just become a High Country Club member.

 

[dougp26364]

With weeks you are at the mercy of the developer whenever they want to move the goalposts. One such problem is when they want to move on to something else, such as a new type section of buildings, leaving the old ones devalued, as has happened with several resorts around the world. Or they may just quit selling, leaving a resort that is gradually decaying with decreased opportunities to trade and rising maintenance fees. No system/resort is perfect so buy carefully.

While I might tend to agree to avoid over simplified answers, points are considerably easier to change the goal posts on than are weeks ownership. We have both and, one such resort, Polo Towers, is a good example of the developer "moving on" leaving the BOD/HOA to maintain the resort and keep it's value up.

But, as I mentioned, while the developer has bailed out of the timeshare business, it is now on the owners to maintain the property and maintain it's value. With our points based HGVC unit, we will always be at the mercy of the HGVC system. They can change the points required for any new resorts they develope, forcing us to purchase more points to stay in the newer properties within their system. Likewise RCI can change the HGVC points required for exchange within the RCI system.

At least with PT's I'm still exchanging a week for a week. A one bedroom for a one bedroom or a two bedroom for a two bedroom. Depending on the time of year or the area I'm exchanging into, I have often been able to upgrade from a studio to a one or two bedroom unit. I have always been able to exchange a one bedroom for a two bedroom in certain area's like Branson, Williamsburg or Orlando.

With HGVC's points based exchange system and RCI's declared value of those points, I don't have has much opportunity or flexibility to do as much. In fact, if I LO my HGVC unit, use the one bedroom side and deposit the remaining points, I'm relegated to a studio unit exchange at best with RCI's value for those points.

While the answer you're refering to was, in fact, over simplified, it has much more basis in fact, at least IMO, than does yours looking the same at weeks based ownership.

IMO, much depends on which exchange company you're dealing with. I have very little use for RCI's convoluted system anymore. I tend to agree that with RCI, weeks owners seem to be having a tougher time in the exchange market. However, Interval is still a primarily weeks based exchange system and I still continue to enjoy better selection and ease of use with them.

I have 5 weeks that exchange with Interval and 2 that exchange with RCI. When I've looked for exchanges into Branson, MO, a location we visit 1 to 3 times per year, I have mult. choices using any weeks based exchange unit I have. When I've attempted to exchange into Branson using our HGVC points based week, I've always had a selection of one or two resorts and not always for the week I want to go. RCI has lost me as a customer when I couldn't pull a good variety of weeks in Branson during what many would consider shoulder season (early spring/late fall).

The other week that I own that is with RCI is the French Quarter in Branson. I bought it strictly to use and not exchange. Otherwise, I never would have purchased it as they are associated with RCI and not Interval.

Both points and weeks units have their advantages and disadvantages. I also believe that those advantages/disadvantages change depending on the exchange company you're using.

I still hold to the theory of buy where you would like to travel/stay if all else fails or changes come along that make it difficult to exchange. I have done this with every unit we've ever purchased although two have since become exchange bait.

 

[Keitht]

The only Points system I have any knowledge of is that operated by RCI. I investigated the possibility of moving from Weeks to Points and decided it wasn't for me. That doesn't mean it's not suitable for anybody. A major reason for not switching was the fact that for exchanges outside your own resort or resort group you can only place the request 11 months in advance. For my wife and me to be sure of getting the holiday dates we want from work we need to get our dates in at least 12 months in advance. With Weeks we are able to deposit 2 years in advance and finalise exchange soon thereafter.
If we could be more flexible with the lead time Points might be more attractive to us. A major plus for Points is that we own a 2 bed unit but would often be happy to 'trade down' to a 1 bed. That would save us points which could potentially be used for off peak breaks.

 

[timeos2]

There is never one answer

I still hold to the theory of buy where you would like to travel/stay if all else fails or changes come along that make it difficult to exchange. I have done this with every unit we've ever purchased although two have since become exchange bait.

At the simplest and most succinct form this is the key. If you buy where you like and want to visit the most there is little chance you will make a mistake. That can be a week at a resort or a week or more of value in your selected multi-resort system. In either case I agree that a deeded ownership is another layer of protection.

The ongoing claim that points systems can change is a true red herring. The fact that new resorts in the systems may require more points is no different than the new buildings at a resort having more features or a lock off unit that the older units don't. You most likely would find your old week doesn't trade into the new one because the value is less. At least with points you can work the process to easily obtain those extra points by borrowing, renting or purchasing more if you feel you'll always want them. Much harder to sell your old week and buy the newer style week.

Second most important is how you buy. Resale is almost always best. Especially in multi-resort systems the ability to buy and sell on the open market may be artificially constrained by the developer. Better to know that going in than finding out after you paid full price to buy that you can't sell or that it's only worth pennies on your dollar. If you are able to buy resale at the start you'll not only save over retail but you'll be familiar with the process should you ever decide to sell.

The bottom line is there is no perfect system or answer for everyone. There are so many choices that most people should be able to find the right fit for them. As Boca points out the world seems to be moving away from weeks for trading but they will always be very viable for those that want to use what they own.

 

[Jya-Ning]

I Would like to hear your opinions about the Points Timeshare Systems (Hilton, Farilfield...) vs the traditional Timeshare Ownership.

Try to look at the TS from these factors
1) How you plan to exit when you done with TS? Is there any chance you may need to exit earlier? I plan to leave it to my kids, which means there is a great chance they may not want it, or I may went into a finacial difficulty and have to get rid of them before my time come.
2) What will you plan to use that timeshare for? If for some reason, you can not use the timeshare as you planned, what is the alternative way? Personal use, Exchange only, Rent it out, flip it. Most people start the TS for personal use, and it is the least risk thing. However, due to nature cause, something will always happen to prevent them do one thing or the other. The more alternative ways you can use without lossing, or the more sure way you can guarantee to use it (like you exchange it, it guarantee to get whatever you want), the more likely you will enjoy the TS.
3) What does flexible means. A lot of people says they are very flexible. Does that means if they are willing to go to FL at hurriancan season? Does that mean they are willing to go to beach at 20F, does that mean they are willing to stay in a 3 star resort? Does that mean they are happy to goto a beach resort and stay at a room facing the parking lot?
4) What could go wrong in the TS you purchase, how much can you prevent it? What will be the resolution when that happen?

There are fix, floating and point system. There are hugh resort mini system, hugh resort or small resort or snall resort chain, or RCI point system.

IMHO
Fix week you will always get the unit at that week. It is great if you know the resort well, you know the room well, you know the local resell market value for that area, that resort, that specific week well, you know the local rent market for that area, that resort, that specific week well, you know the exchange system for that area, that resort, that specific week well or can at least make a sound guess before you buy the week. The only possible problem is the HOA is bad or the management company is bad. If you have sold out resort, HOA will be owner controlled. It usually has very small sample for you to observe it, so it is very hard to say you can form a good estimation. If you want to waste that week, none can use that week.

Floating week you will need to reserve a week, you may or may not know the unit. It is great if you know the resort well, you know the underline number of units that gives to the floating pool well, you know the local resell market value well (area/resort), you know the local rent market well (area/resort), you know the exchange system well (area/resort). The only possible problem is the HOA is bad or the management company is bad. If you belong to a hugh system or mini-system, you need to trust the company that control the reservation will not abuse its power. Usually, when you say flexible, it means you can make reservation 1 year ago. Or you live really close to the resort can can just go there if weather is good.

Fix or floating you usually don't have too much choice when try to exchange once you buy it.

There are so many point system, each will have its own way of doing things. The good things is there are enough people in each system, so most of them has its own resell market established. Most people will be able to tell you what is good/bad on certain point system although you may have difficulty about certain resort. All except RCI will allow you to rent weeks out from your system. Some point system will allow you rent out point instead of reserve a week and rent it out, which will reduce your need to know the rental market if you are in that system. Most of the system will allow you to add points or move points from one year to another, which will allow you increase the room size or reduce the room size based on your vacation need. You will need either commit early, or can take whatever is left, or can spend time to check inventories frequently. Fairfiled will allow you to pick room by given different points for different view or create a VIP Gold+ level to allow you to pick the room (no guarantee though). Each system will provide you a few places to choose, so you don't need to worry about to know the area market. Each system will allow to to exchange different size. Most will give you a generic index type of psedu week to deposit to RCI/II Which reduce the need of knowledge to exchange prior purchase min. However, it also means you will not have too much control on that side.

However, the developer usually can control the system with easy. If the point are not deeded, it is hard to trace if it is oversold or not. If it is deeded, it still very hard to trace if it is overused or not. The developer can and may use the point to gain control in HOA. If it is not deed, the developer may sold all inventory to other company and the owner can not do too much except go through court.

Point system will also has some more add fees if you really flexible and split one week's point to many stay. If you want to waste the point, people can enjoy the week.

As to MF, each system is different. Fix / float week, the MF is based on unit size. So the bigger your unit, the high season your unit is, the more likely you can find alernative way to use the week. A low demand season week is very low value to exchange or rent out compare to its MF.

Some point system use ladder, the more point you have, the less you need to pay. Some point system use total MF/total point in the resort the deed is grant. You have to think which one is better for you. But no, theMF is not high because it is point system. In fact, if you own enough points, some point system MF is much lower than the fix week system per week.

Most point system will ask a program fee, which basic is used for their reservation system. Some is imbedded into MF. But most of the systems I know, the more points you own, the less you pay per point.

Tradition system, you need to be expert before you buy. Point system allow you to learn after you buy. To me, that is the majpr difference.
Jya-Ning

 

[PerryM]

You need both!

A well balanced timeshare portfolio will have BOTH weeks and point based timeshares. Weeks allow for the security of a deed, in most cases, and the ability to go back year after year to the home resort with the best chance of getting the week you want.

Weeks can be deeded to a specific unit and week which insure usage in hard to get weeks and units. Marriott’s towers at Maui allow for this – and you pay for it too.

Point timeshares, like WorldMark, allow for extreme flexibility within the club and with the exchange companies. I’ll put up a 3BR WM in II against any Marriott or Westin – we pay a fraction of the resale price with a MF that will have Marriott and Westin owners crying. I can place 100+ ongoing II and RCI searches all at the same time with NO points (WM credits) needed to place the exchange – I need the credits when an exchange happens and if I don’t have enough credits II and RCI will bill me 7¢ a credit. Takes 10,000 WM credits to exchange into any 2BR in Red season. I can pay just $700 a week for as many exchanges as I want – no purchase of more credits is needed.

To recap: We own traditional timeshare weeks to lock in holiday weeks that are very hard to get and Points for extreme flexibility – we need both, I’m guessing you do too. Just like a stock portfolio needs a basket of stocks so should your timeshare portfolio own both types of timeshares to maximize your ownership.

 

[BocaBum99]

Destination Clubs like High Country are like Country Club memberships. You are guaranteed to lose money. You have to sell back to the country club at a pre-determined discount to the current sales price.

Timeshares are more like hotels with fewer of the daily services such as housekeeping and restaurants. And, they are built for week long vacations.

A rental model for timesharing will be the best system long term and there will always be a good niche for it. Ownership structure and real estate transfer fees and procedures are real problems today that will need reform for it to grow 10 fold.

 

[djp]

One of the reasons that I like starwood is that it is a nice mix between points and weeks. I own specific deeded weeks, but then they are assigned a "Staroption" value which allows me to go to all of the starwood properties. It seems to be the best of both worlds.

 

[timeos2]

I would never give up a deed for points

One of the reasons that I like starwood is that it is a nice mix between points and weeks. I own specific deeded weeks, but then they are assigned a "Staroption" value which allows me to go to all of the starwood properties. It seems to be the best of both worlds.

All of my points systems - Wyndham (the group formerly known as Fairfield), Sunterra and RCI work the same way. It is the only way I'll participate in a points system.

 

[Lee B]

I just read all of the above posts and I ended up not having a one certain idea what would be best. This may trouble the original poster, who did want some certainty.

The real conclusion to draw is that different people like different things. The very first TS resorts had fixed apartments and fixed weeks. You bought apartment 12 for week 27. Every year, you would find the same people all around, and make friends with them and look forward to catching up with them each year.

Many resort areas with seasonal popularity had trouble selling the unattractive intervals, so they came up with the "flexibility" of floating weeks. Each year you request a week's stay, which you probably would get if you requested it on the first day that you were permitted to request. Slow-pokes would be stuck with the leftovers, so they might deposit those into an exchange system and request another time and maybe even another place.

The next logical step is to put a points value to each week and each apartment, so that owners could trade these points for different times, different number of days, different size apartments and different locations. The more resorts in that system, the more choices to visit without needing to trust and pay an exchange company. The first system to do this in the U.S. was Vacation Internationale, or VI. They bought timeshares in many locations and let members spend their points any way thay could. They never built, just bought in the open market.

Maybe you have seen TV commercials for Jeld-Wen Windows and Doors. That company noticed TS resorts used lots of doors and windows and decided to enter that market. They hired a consultant to tell them the best way to go. That consultant told them to build new places and sell credits toward staying in them, because the trend was going; to shorter than 7-day vactions, and driving instead of flying. They named this subsidiary company Trendwest, and named the single owner of all of the buildings, WorldMark the Club (WM). Because Jeld-Wen's home is in Oregon, they developed the first resorts in Oregon, Washington and California. Now Trendwest is part of Wyndham Worldwide, and probably the Trendwest name will go away.

They keep on building resorts and selling memberships in WorldMark. As long as the new resorts are in attractive places, members will be happy. They built (at least) one undesirable one, and this angered many members, who saw their credits being devalued by perhaps being crowded out of the nice places and getting stuck with the unpopular ones, having no choice in where Trendwest builds new resorts. Despite this, WorldMark is an attractive points system for many TUGgers, and you will find out why by reading current and archived postings about them.

If you want to return most years to the same place, say Hawaii, buy a week in a nice place there. If you like the idea of swapping around and visiting places all over, you would want to own an interval where the exchange demand is greater than the supply, thus upping your trade value. Exchanging costs money, so you may want to own in a points system with resorts in many places that you would like to visit. This may cost more, even resale, but pay off in the long run by not requiring you to pay for an exchange every time.

The last thing to consider is what you want in a vacation. If it's a location you want to spend time in, buy a resale interval or points in a system that owns there. If you want to be surrounded by classy grounds and pools and amenities, buy into a hotel-based resort or system, such as Starwood, Marriott or Hilton. You will pay high maintenance fees, and you will have what you want. Notice, though, that Parry has a way to own a less-expensive option and still exchange into the classy places.

VI and WM let you stay in good locations, and the apartments will be clean and comfortable but not particularly remarkable in themselves. They are where you will want to be to see people and places, not to be coddled and pampered.

Use these notions to decide what ownership is best for you, your family and possibly your friends.

 

[PerryM]

It's all about you

Timeshare ownership really boils down to vacation usage.
Some folks take a “mega” vacation once a year, some take 3-4 day “mini” vacations, some, like us, take 4 – 5 weeks of vacation a year and 5 “mega” vacations is just too much to handle. We have 2 “mega” vacations each year; 1 snowboarding at Christmas time and 1 in Maui. The rest of the time we take the “cheap” vacation where we really don’t care where we go but we want the accommodations to cost us peanuts and spend the money on activities and restaurants.

We enjoy the “cheap” vacations just as much as the “mega” vacation – part of the thrill of the “cheap” vacation is getting to someone else’s definition of “mega” on our “cheap” budget. I can’t tell you how much I smile as I check into a Marriott for the cost of a mediocre TV set from Wal-Mart. Snowboarding at Christmas time at a ski in/out Marriott which other’s spent $60,000 to buy just makes timeshare ownership worth it.

I call this “leveraging” timeshare usage. It requires knowledge of timeshares and the adventure of being flexible is a definite requirement. I know many in TUG live for this kind of timeshare usage.

Timeshare ownership is the typical “chicken/egg” debate – you can’t even begin to understand the horrendous vacation power you command unless you own a timeshare. Sadly 95+% of timeshare owners only experience the distorted image of timeshare ownership that their salesrep spun for them.

So begin your timeshare adventure using the traditional timeshare norms and the more time and money you spend learning how to leverage timeshares the better and more frequent your vacations can become.

 

[e.bram]

Simple: If you own a prime bright red oceanfront week in weeks, you own a bright red oceanfront week. with points you never know no matter how many points you have. You might end up with a pink dumpster view week.

 

[StuckinChicago]

I agree 100% with PerryM - "you need both" and "it's all about you"!!!

I was in a similar situation with the OP about 12 months ago. We knew we wanted to buy a TS, and I started reading TUG with the hopes I would find the be-all-and-end-all that would accomodate all of our needs. After researching so many different options, I found that every single type of ownership program had something that was missing for us. Ultimately, we came to the conclusion that we needed both points and weeks to begin building a well-rounded portfolio of TS. We recently bought an EOY summer week in Cocoa Beach, since for us, we love the area, the beaches and the proximity to Orlando. But the key is that it was perfect for US (yet maybe not for someone else) at a price that allowed us to set some extra money aside for another purchase! We will never trade it and plan to use it EOY. Our kids are little and it fit the bill in terms of wanting that "picture perfect 1 week beach vacation with the kids".

Now, we are looking for something in the opposite years. Maybe HGVC, maybe Bluegreen, maybe Hyatt, maybe an independent RCI points resort, who knows? We are still looking. But we know for sure that to properly round out our portfolio, we want something points-based to allow for mini-vacations and for seeing new places. I also agree with other people that it is best to have the points ownership tied to an underlying deeded week at a resort you actually like. You never know what may happen, and at the end of the day, if something goes haywire with the point systems, you know that you still can use your underlying deeded week and still be happy.

So for us, it will ultimately be a combination of points and weeks. And I think it could be an option for you to consider owning both. Most importantly, make sure you TAKE YOUR TIME! Research, buy resale, and buy what you like and what works for your family. I sat here for roughly 12 months, just reading everything I could get my hands on. And we are JUST NOW finally starting to make some purchases. It really is important to take the time to learn before purchasing.

P.S. HGVC has 3 affiliated resorts in Scotland, so that could be a good option for you since you are from Spain.

Hope that helps and welcome to TUG!

 

[bnoble]

I recently completed my first purchase. It was a resale points deed in the Wyn/FF mini-system, which happens to be backed by a pink south florida oceanfront week in a 2BR LO unit at a distinctly average resort. We went with this purchase for a few reasons.

First, while we have an idea of where we want to go for the next 5 years or so, our preferred destination may well change as our grade-school kids grow up and their interests change. What's more, our preferred destinations and times will probably change again when they go off to college and we are no longer beholden to the school calendar. So, I couldn't really say that there was one specific place I wanted to return to at the same time of year for much more than 10 years, let alone "forever".

Second, we needed a floating week, as our school vacations tend to flex a little bit. When we compared the purchase prices (via completed ebay sales) and MFs of the prime floating weeks in acceptable resorts to a points contract sufficient to book a "comparable" property, the points contract cost at most a few hundred dollars more, with MFs almost equal.

Third, the system we bought into has a good history of stable point values. There were many locations in the system that I could imagine wanting to visit with my kids as they grow, or without my kids, and where we have enough points to book a 2BR in prime time. So, we can get by for a long time staying only within the system without worrying about the uncertainty of exchange. Some of the newer resorts would be out of reach in terms of point costs, but a 1BR in prime time in those resorts would be possible---and without the kids, more than adequate.

So, for us, points represented increased flexibility (in vacation destination) with little or no increased risk (inability to exchange) or cost (purchase or maintenance) compared to the floating weeks we also considered purchasing.

My general sense is that if you have places that you'd like to return to annually, then a fixed week in one of those places at a "good" time would be a great idea, and probably the least expensive route. If you don't have such a place, a mini-system might well work out better for you, but as noted you'll have to do your homework before buying into one. I'm not sure that anyone new to timesharing could make a wise first purchase with the intention of using it as a trader. At least, I was pretty sure *I* wasn't going to be able to.

 

[PerryM]

The deed indeed

One of the underlying principles of traditional timeshare ownership is the deed. In WM, we have no deed, the deeds to the resorts/condos are in a Master Deed Trust which may or may not have sufficient protection to protect the members.

I’m just wondering if the idea of a deed isn’t another one of those timeshare developer ideas that has been spun to make a sale go thru and then has become an urban legend.

Do we have any concrete examples where having that deed has meant ANY difference? I’d like to know. I don’t remember hearing a single case where a deed made any difference.

If all goes well, a deed means nothing but extra profit for the state that charges a fee to change the name on that deed; and those title companies that make big bucks to push paper around. That deed can be attached by court decisions or be clouded by past ownership changes. Title insurance is needed to insure that the title is clear and that the name on the deed is correct. There is NO 100% foolproof way to guarantee that the deed is registered correctly - even in the 21st century.

Beyond that, just what does a deed do for an owner? Let’s say that the developer pockets the money and flees to Russia to live out the rest of their life. The resort goes into bankruptcy court and creditors want to get at the carcass before the owners can do something.

But just what is it that the owners can do; beyond paying outrageous fees to lawyers to fight in court for years?

Do we have any concrete examples of actual protection that the deed affords an owner?

 

[ladycody]

Do we have any concrete examples where having that deed has meant ANY difference? I’d like to know. I don’t remember hearing a single case where a deed made any difference.

Not really...although there is a TS I was reading about whose HOA wasnt paying taxes and none of the owners knew about it. The property was sold at auction because, originally, the courts said that notifying the HOA of the past due taxes was enough. Now, however, because of the fact that the resort has individually deeded owners, they have stated that a mistake was likely made and the tax sale may need to be reversed.

On the other side of the coin...if you own a deeded week with 5000 other owners and the resort needs 5 million in renovations that arent covered by reserves...it will cost each owner $1000 in special assesments. With something like WM...even if 5 resorts needed similar renovations all in the same time frame...(totaling 25 million) there are enough owners who share the costs to reduce the assesment to $100 per owner. Course there are enough properties in the system that I could get hit with something like that every year...but it would still be far more do-able for me that way. (note: I dont think there have ever been any special assesments to WM owners as of yet...just talking what-if's here.)

Large Special assesments were one of the items that scared me most about standard ownership...and WM made me feel at least a bit better about my odds at avoiding the kind of assesment that would otherwise make me faint.

Just some thoughts.

As for the devaluing of credits through increased credit values...that's something that absolutely needs to be carefully watched.

 

[timeos2]

The deed is a legal document and carries rights

Do we have any concrete examples of actual protection that the deed affords an owner?

Perry - Two examples. The first is the recent tax sale of the resort in FL. It appears that those people who got screwed by their Board of Directors and Management may get their property back thanks to the deeds that were recorded. An actual example of protection from a deed.

Number two is theoretical as I don't believe it has happened yet but certainly could. In many of the newer trsut based systems, in many ways similar to your WM but without the long track record of reliability - in fact many of the new trusts are run by systems that have been rather unstable over the years, ask that you buy in without a deed or give up the deed you have as part of the deal. The promise of a WM type cost sharing and ease of use is the carrot. The stick is miss one payment one year and rather than needing to go through the costly procedure of foreclosure and a court ordered change in the deed they can simply put your account into default and terminate your membership. Bye bye ownership and any money paid to that point. The other downside is should the trust implode the holdings go to the creditors not the buyers. Not so if you hold the deed. You would be out the cost of the points system membership but you'd still own your week(s).

The non-deeded clubs/trusts are too much like the long discredited "vacation clubs". You may be buying air. I know WM has worked out OK and I'm sure there are others as well but I really prefer a deeded property even if all I plan to do is use it annually in a points system.