New to Vacationing family of 8 and timeshares / Survey [MERGED]

[VacationForever]

When you say $2,000 a week you mean just for one stay or that is the maintenance fees?

$2000 maintenace fees for a week. You maybe able to stretch it out by locking off a 2BR Lockoff and trade in II, but you have to incur membership fees, exchange fees, size upgrade fees etc.

 

[SerKillZ]

Can you explain to me what this means?

 

[vacationtime1]

Can you explain to me what this means?

It's an all-inclusive resort. The food/beverage cost (which is mandatory) could exceed $20K/year for your group.

 

[SerKillZ]

Gotcha. So even though the maintenance fee says less than $3k I would be paying a lot more in other fees? What do the weeks, frequency, type, and check-in checkout mean?

 

[rickandcindy23]

It might be less expensive to book hotels in Mexico and pay the inclusive fee directly.

If I wanted Mexico, I would look at Westin Lagunamar or I would buy Westin Kierland Villas to book Lagunamar and to stay at Kierland. You mentioned Arizona. Kierland is in AZ.

You can always look at 3 bedroom units that you would visit regularly. Trading that 3 bedroom is not going to get you a 3 bedroom everywhere you would want it.

 

[jp10558]

It sounds smart but being new to timeshares I have no idea what you mean by these abbreviations

Ok, so MFs/pt is maintenance fees (yearly fee but not including club dues or booking fees) per point. In a system like HGVC you get points for your owned week. These points can then be used to book anywhere in their system. Points costs to book are fixed when a resort is built or acquired, but vary based on age (each time they bring on a new resort they tend to have more points required for the same thing - so older resorts were fixed when costs were cheaper), size of unit, view category and season. The seasons were also fixed when the resort was added. What this means is that at an early Hawaii resort and many of the existing resorts, a 2BR (2 bedroom) in platinum season (highest demand) is 11,200 points. However, a brand new Hawaii resort could be 28,000pts. A Myrtle Beach resort basic 2BR could be 11,200 pts platinum, but ocean front view would be 15,400 IIRC. On the flip side, that same ocean front view in gold season (so often called shoulder, or like for Myrtle Beach say April) is 9,650pts. Low Season, like Feb in Hilton Head might be 5,600 pts.

Now, you see how when and where you go can affect the points you need, the other side of it is that getting 11,200pts a year in Hawaii directly could be $3,000. In Orlando, it could be $1,800. In Las Vegas it can be $1,200. But the points spend the same. So you see the strategy. Buy where the MF is lowest for the points but adjust based on availability and up front cost. What is ~$4,000 up front in Orlando might be $8,000 up front in Vegas and a struggle to find one for sale because everyone wants the low ongoing fees for the points.

The other wrinkle is MFs are based on unit size, not season. So you'll find someone giving away for free up front an Orlando gold 2BR deed because it only gives you 8,000pts for the same $1,800 a year.

I am not intimately familiar with Marriott, but there are differences there. In resale Marriott doesn't give you points, you just get a week by default. To get points you also need to pay Marriott a junk fee of $3 per point. There is a lot of debate on TUG about whether this conversion is at all worth it - getting points means you can book less than a full week, but also means a different inventory pool than weeks, and often times I see reported the points values you get for a week are less than it costs to book it - which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I might be misunderstanding those posts too. If you don't pay for points, the weeks are traded in Interval International on a one to one basis, a week for a week. There may be a fee. The upshot of Interval trades is you can trade into more than just Marriott - if they're available and Interval thinks it's a like for like trade. What Interval thinks is a like for like trade is a little opaque intentionally. From TUG I gather that there are a couple strategies, one is finding a low MF 2BR lock off, where you can split it into a Studio and a 1BR unit, so now you actually get 2 weeks to trade, though there's less trade power for a Studio and a 1BR vs a 2BR, Marriott gets such large trade power generally that you can often still find things, even 2BRs, and then pay the unit size upgrade fee to get 2 trades for one MF. The other strategy is to take a little foreign exchange risk and try and buy like Phuket Beach Club in Thailand which has worked out to a pretty low $1,200 MFs when converted for a 2BR. But of course the exchange rates change daily.

OK, so that's the basic strategic ideas - why would you willingly pay higher MFs per point or unit in a specific location? Well, to get much closer to (or actually) guarantee a booking each year where you want to go. When you're doing the strategy, you're betting that you can get online early enough of the inventory opening up during all access booking to get what you need.

If you own specifically where and when you want to go, you get an earlier crack at it. With HGVC everyone can book at 9 months out. If your actual owned week, called a home week, is what you want to book, you can book that with no booking fee at a year out - before anyone else who doesn't actually own that week, unit type and location CAN book it. It does cost all your points for that week however. This works like a traditional fixed week fixed location timeshare in that case. So if you need IDK July in Hilton Head or Christmas Week somewhere (these are usually event weeks that you have to buy specifically) then you're stuck paying more to lock that in. You might also have to spend a lot more for the week up front depending on who's even selling them.

Marriott I think if you buy a deeded week is fixed week fixed unit unless you pay for the points initially, or you deposit it into Interval to trade somewhere else, so in that case it's simpler, I don't think you have to go in and say I want to use it where and when I own, it does that by default, and you have to go do something if you DON'T want to use it that way.

Now, the other thing is you have to look at occupancy rates, HGVC 2BR are pretty much all 6 people max. So as I said originally, you're probably looking at trying to get 2 2BR in that system and trying to book them together so you have enough space. Here's where you kinda have to research if 3BR are even offered or if the 2BRs allow 8 people - some do, but not in HGVC and IDK about Marriott. If you're going to be doing multiple units, then you almost NEED the owned fixed weeks or to be willing to search around and be flexible with dates to actually get them to line up. And even then, you have to assume the 2 units won't be right next to each other and may be on other sides of the resort, so IDK if that could even work. So you might be looking at an entirely different system for 3BR. And finding and booking those are even harder because they're kinda rare.

For instance, I know Wyndham has Emerald Grande in Destin, FL. Those have a lot of 3BR, but they cost a LOT of points, like 650,000 (note every systems points values are unique and don't translate at all). LOW Wyndham MF/pt (without the program fee) are around $6.20/k so that's AT BEST going to run you $4,030 in MFs before program fees each year. If you get the Club Wyndham Access that are given away on ebay (so almost no acquisition fees), they are I think getting close to $9/k so $5,850 MFs. IDK if Destin, FL would even be worth about 6 thousand a year to you. Of course, that's a very expensive example, but you can look at each resorts points costs online for Wyndham, and probably HGVC and Marriott also.

So, like many say - the best thing to do is consider where and when, check what size unit or how many units you would need to have 8 people, ask on TUG if those dates and units and locations are likely to be easy to strategically book or if you'd need to own there, and then see the yearly costs, and if you're still thinking this is worth further consideration, look into the resale costs to make that happen.

 

[andre10056]

For what it's worth, here's my vote for your not even considering timeshare ownership until your six kids are grown and you'll be an empty nester. Too many things will undoubtedly come up so you'll never be able to travel during "your" week (the week you own as a fixed week in perpetuity or the week you reserve twelve months in advance).

For the time being, if you want to learn about the different systems, and if you've got nothing better to do, learn away. But you'll find that virtually every opportunity you evaluate, even via resale, even via ebay giveaway, is overpriced (even if a dollar bill) with far too high annual maintenance fees. True, there are a tiny percentage of resales that might offer good value at the moment, but with continually eroding exchange value, continually increasing maintenance fees, more and more limitations on one's ability to rent out one's timeshare, even those gems of today may not seem to be gems for too long.

 

[WinniWoman]

Do not acquire a timeshare at this point in your life with such a large family! As the kids get older they will have different schedules with sports and music and clubs and what not. Scheduling a timeshare vacation so far in advance to accommodate everyone will be near impossible. If I were you I’d keep renting places. Homes are probably best.

When you are empty nesters than you can revisit this.

 

[WorldT]

Since you live on the west Coast, you might want to look at Worldmark. Some of their two bedrooms are rated for 8 people. Here is their website for cash rentals. You can search for different locations, and then click on the different room sizes to see the capacity. If the locations make sense for you and you want to compare the rental prices to owning, you can come back here and ask.

https://www.extraholidays.com/marbl...listing_na_allusers&utm_content=wmmarblefalls

 

[geist1223]

The 2 bedroom Worldmarks at which i have stayed are only rated for 6 people. A Baby counts as a whole person. Worldmark tends to be strict on the occupancy number.

 

[jp10558]

For what it's worth, here's my vote for your not even considering timeshare ownership until your six kids are grown and you'll be an empty nester. Too many things will undoubtedly come up so you'll never be able to travel during "your" week (the week you own as a fixed week in perpetuity or the week you reserve twelve months in advance).

I agree with this part - I don't know how you'd wrangle that many schedules. I have a cousin with 2 kids who can barely wrangle 5 days here and there with him, his wife and the kids. And they're like 4 and 6! I imagine it'll get worse before it gets better.

For the time being, if you want to learn about the different systems, and if you've got nothing better to do, learn away. But you'll find that virtually every opportunity you evaluate, even via resale, even via ebay giveaway, is overpriced (even if a dollar bill) with far too high annual maintenance fees.

I don't agree with this - I have found exactly one time a like for like was cheaper, and maybe 2 other times they were equivalent. You pay more for the ease of booking and cancelling from a Hotel or AirB&B / Vacasa... In many of my example searches, a single hotel room was more than a 2BR Timeshare booked via the system.

True, there are a tiny percentage of resales that might offer good value at the moment, but with continually eroding exchange value, continually increasing maintenance fees, more and more limitations on one's ability to rent out one's timeshare, even those gems of today may not seem to be gems for too long.

I suppose it really will depend, but I find that hotels and AirB&B don't exactly have prices that never go up. I am averaging around $1k a week for 2BR, Few hotels beat that with a single room for 7 nights (without points etc), forget about 2 rooms. I've seen someone else on TUG really work RCI points and is averaging more like $500 a week. The value is there, usually in bulk usage IMO. The problem is it probably works best for people like me who can work from anywhere with Internet most of the time or retired people who can set up many weeks a year in a TS.

 

[bizaro86]

$500 per year max maintenance fee budget will eliminate basically everything.

 

[SerKillZ]

1) Is there a vacation destination you wish to visit most of the time or on a regular basis? if so where?



I think either Cancun Mexico, Hawaii, Arizona, or Utah in that order.



2) Do you want to visit your home resort at least half the time, or do you want to trade more than half the time?

More than half



3) What are your 5 top trade destinations?

Cancun Mexico, Hawaii, Arizona, or Utah and Colorado



4) How many people do you usually travel with - total, including yourself?

6-10



5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule?

Anytime



6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance?

Yes

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time?

Yes

8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars?

3.4-5

9) How much can you afford to spend upfront, without financing?

4k-10k per year including everything

10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year?

200-500

11) Are you a detail oriented planner?

Yes

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do?

Yeah that is why I am here to learn

Sorry I meant 200 to $500 per month

 

[SerKillZ]

1) Is there a vacation destination you wish to visit most of the time or on a regular basis? if so where?



I think either Cancun Mexico, Hawaii, Arizona, or Utah in that order.



2) Do you want to visit your home resort at least half the time, or do you want to trade more than half the time?

More than half



3) What are your 5 top trade destinations?

Cancun Mexico, Hawaii, Arizona, or Utah and Colorado



4) How many people do you usually travel with - total, including yourself?

6-10



5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule?

Anytime



6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance?

Yes

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time?

Yes

8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars?

3.4-5

9) How much can you afford to spend upfront, without financing?

4k-10k per year including everything

10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year?

200-500

11) Are you a detail oriented planner?

Yes

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do?

Yeah that is why I am here to learn

Sorry I meant 200 to 500 per month

$500 per year max maintenance fee budget will eliminate basically everything.

Sorry I meant it per month I really don't know how these timeshares work if maintenance is monthly or yearly or per visit or what

 

[sue1947]

Since you live on the west Coast, you might want to look at Worldmark. Some of their two bedrooms are rated for 8 people. Here is their website for cash rentals. You can search for different locations, and then click on the different room sizes to see the capacity. If the locations make sense for you and you want to compare the rental prices to owning, you can come back here and ask.

https://www.extraholidays.com/marbl...listing_na_allusers&utm_content=wmmarblefalls

First of all, the website listed isn't Worldmark's. It's Wyndham's site for renting to the public. Availability will be limited and a 3 BR during school holidays will be difficult to get. Worldmark's actual website is here: WM. Worldmark has locations in N CA, but for your needs, you will need to book at 13 months out for a week, and even then, you may not get what you want. Once booking opens for shorter stays, most of what you want will be gone; in particular weekends. You can get some, but you will need to learn the details of how things work and hope for the best. If you want Marriott; they don't have anything in N CA except the Pulse in SF. There are plenty of options in S CA or Arizona.

Don't buy in expecting to be able to use a 2 BR. You need 3 BR.
A 3 BR usually has: K, Q, 2 twins (or Q) and a sofa sleeper or Murphy in the living room. Many of the Marriotts tend to have 2 sofa sleepers. Your kids will have to share, but at least everybody is in a bed.
A 2 BR typically has: a king or queen in the master, 2 twins or a queen in the 2nd and a sofa sleeper or Murphy (queen) in the living room. Some, not most, have a second sofa sleeper someplace (master or a loft landing) and even fewer might have 2 doubles in the second bedroom. Depending on the age of your kids, at most that provides beds for 4 of them. Where are the other 2 sleeping? Timeshares are great for families with their kitchens and laundry facilities, but you also want a good sleep and on the floor doesn't cut it.

This can work for you if you are a detailed planner and can plan a year out. Check the cancellation policy; with 6 kids, something will change and you will likely need to cancel at some point. Use it for a longer vacation as a base and then hope you can pick up some weekends or shorter stays here or there; most of the time these will be cancellations. Use the waitlist.
OR continue to rent which will give you more flexibility.

 

[WorldT]

First of all, the website listed isn't Worldmark's. It's Wyndham's site for renting to the public. Availability will be limited and a 3 BR during school holidays will be difficult to get. Worldmark's actual website is here: WM.

I am pretty sure I said the website is for cash rentals which means to the public. The website has Worldmark rentals too. Actually, the landing page I linked is to a Worldmark at Marble Falls in Texas. I asked the OP to compare what they can get cash for the size of the room that will fit the family (capacity for 8).
Once the OP has seen what the cash rentals prices look like and would like to compare it to owning one, the OP can ask for more details. Suggestions!
The reason is simple, renting cash may make sense to the OP and thus no need to worry about owning a timeshare.

The Worldmark website you linked is for owners.

 

[bizaro86]

In that case I'd suggest you research in the Vistana forum, probably focusing on a mandatory property like Westin Kierland Villas (Scottsdale).

You'd be able to trade in to Westin's in Cancun, Hawaii, Scottsdale, and Palm Desert. There are also some ski locations although the Westin is a tough trade during ski season.

 

[SerKillZ]

In that case I'd suggest you research in the Vistana forum, probably focusing on a mandatory property like Westin Kierland Villas (Scottsdale).

You'd be able to trade in to Westin's in Cancun, Hawaii, Scottsdale, and Palm Desert. There are also some ski locations although the Westin is a tough trade during ski season.

Would they have more information on how to trade in that form? I was also looking at the rental section on this site and some of them seem very cheap. Is that right or worth it?

 

[bizaro86]

Would they have more information on how to trade in that form? I was also looking at the rental section on this site and some of them seem very cheap. Is that right or worth it?

Yes, the staroptions system you'd use to trade is quite straightforward, but of course you'd want to be careful to book right when availability opens, etc. Read some posts on the Vistana forum for more information.

Renting can be a great way to see whether timesharing works for you, because it has no lo g term committment.

 

[sponger76]

Sorry I meant 200 to 500 per month

Sorry I meant it per month I really don't know how these timeshares work if maintenance is monthly or yearly or per visit or what

You usually own a week or points, depending on the system. And in some systems you own a week but then they have a points overlay where you have the option to relinquish your week for a given year and instead receive a number of points to use, in which case your week usage for that year becomes available for others to book using points. There are variations with both weeks and points where instead of receiving a week or points allotment every year (EY), you get it every other year (EOY), or even every third year. For non-annual ownerships, Maintenance Fees either only get charged for your annual use year, or else pro-rated (ie. each year you pay half the normal annual amount if you own EOY). Regardless of whether it is weeks or points-based, there are of course differences for specific timeshare systems, but in general this is how it works:

If you own a week, it's usually for a specific unit type at a specific resort. Unit types are sometimes only differentiated by the number of bedrooms, but at many resorts it also varies by view/building/phase, and there may be multiple different unit types with the same number of bedrooms. You will own either a fixed (same week every year, for example week 51 which is usually the week of Christmas) or a floating week. With fixed weeks it is sometimes even a fixed, specific unit. Floating weeks mean each year you have a range of weeks to choose from for your annual reservation. At most resorts, floating weeks fall within a specific season, so you might only be able to book summer weeks or only winter weeks. Outside of the hybrid weeks/points systems mentioned in the first paragraph, usually the only way to book outside of your fixed week or designated season is to exchange, usually via third-party systems like II or RCI.

If you own points, usually there is some sort of land trust set up that owns a bunch of weeks at different resorts. Each of those weeks has a corresponding point value, and the total of the points values of all the trust-controlled weeks is the maximum number of points that system can theoretically sell. You buy a certain number of points, and can use them to book any available inventory owned by the trust. One really big difference with points is that stays don't necessarily have to be exactly seven nights like traditional weeks. Though some systems or specific resorts may have minimum- or maximum-stay requirements, you might be able to book as little as a single night, or as much as multiple weeks in a single reservation (assuming you have enough points). The number of points needed for a given night depends on a combination of the specific night of the week, the specific week or season, the unit type and the particular resort.

Maintenance Fees are typically billed annually (with some exceptions for EOY or triennial ownerships as mentioned previously), though there are a some systems that do take the yearly amount and split it into monthly payments.

At each individual resort, management usually determines what they think the expenses for the next year will be and present the proposed budget to the Board of Directors of that resort's HOA for approval. Once approved, the cost is split amongst all the weeks. Usually the pro-rated amount is different depending on unit type. Though there are some rare exceptions, as long as the unit type is the same the amount is the same regardless of season or specific week owned. Hybrid systems where you can relinquish your week for points will bill your Maintenance Fees based on the week you own, regardless of whether or not you converted to points for that particular year.

If you own points in a trust, its administrators take the maintenance fees for all the weeks the trust owns and add in administrative costs. They divide that total trust expense amount by the number of points the trust represents to get the Maintenance Fee per point. You then pay that amount, multiplied by the number of points you own. There is often an additional annual dues to go along with the Maintenance Fees.

 

[easyrider]

A two bed lock off at the Grandview at Las Vegas sleeps 8. It's basically two one bed units with a maintenance fee of about $950 per year. I've heard these are able to exchange as two one bed units. Some are already converted to RCI points.

Bill