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New scientific paper: offshore wind turbines alter marine eco-system, could shift ocean currents

I posted a video with an expert from Australia who went through all of that for their system.

You post special interest propaganda from the climate industrial complex like Brett does. At least you usually give sources which he usually does not.
I want what is in the US
You keep making statements about Australia, Germany, England
Then you try to equate these statements to the US

I actually spent an hour on South Australia
Somebody is making a ton of money at the expense of the Citizens of South Australia
Rates are artificially high because of marginal Cost Pricing
Costs are low for the producers the majority of days
But rates are set based on the few days of peak power needs
 
Here is another unfair aspect of the "green energy mandates". One state mandates wind and solar which is produced in another state, but the regional power grid raises the rates of consumers in all states their new power lines cross to help pay for them, including states which are not receiving the power. There is now a bill in Congress to put a stop to that scam, so that if a state wants to mandate wind and solar, they are the ones who pay all the costs associated with it. Fair is Fair. Ratepayers in other states should not be ripped off.

These costs of new transmission lines to remote sites where solar and wind energy are produced are part of the increased system costs of wind and solar and should be borne by those who demand wind and solar, not those who are not even receiving it.

So are you saying that system costs are the cost of transmission lines
Or are there more costs you want to add in as well

You are now entering the world of the "Grid"
The energy bills I have seen lately show line items for a variety of things
One is generally Transmission and Distribution

The costs of the lines, transformers, power poles, etc, etc are usually shown in the Transmission and Distribution line item

The US has underspent for years on our electrical grid
It is why when a storm hits, the lines go down
The bigger the storm, the more lines go down

In the Southeast, States have been hit by serious storms that have devastated regions
These costs are added in to the power bills
They do not add to cost of producing electricity
They do add to the cost of receiving electricity by the end user

If you want to compare apples to apples
fine
But you keep jumping around
 
It looks like you missed the smoking gun. "Massive generation expansion" which is a "reliability response to intermittent renewables." In other words it is one of the "system costs" of backup for unreliable intermittent energy sources like wind and solar.

This crapola from our energy monopoly is also a smoking gun for why we need energy competition, but it needs to be done competently like Germany did, not incompetently like California tried. When Germany introduced competition it cut electric rates until Merkel's Energiewende reversed that.

What is galling is that Duke's excuse for raising rates in North Carolina cites developments in "Duke's territory". or "the southeast". When those drivers are not even in North Carolina, they should not be considered. I am not aware of any data centers in North Carolina, for example. We should not be paying for things in other states. In eastern North Carolina, we are being screwed by the Utilities Commission allowing Duke to purchase and merge with out longtime electric monopoly, Carolina Power and Light. And CP&L would not be gouging us for out of state expenses because they did not operate out of state. When Duke blends all of their opertations together like this, why are they raising rates in NC while cutting them in Florida?????
You are not paying attention to what is happening in North Carolina

These are the data centers planned for North Carolina

Some are already under construction

The MW numbers mean the amount of electricity the Data Center plans to have available for "servers"


North Carolina currently has 7 planned data‑center projects totaling 778 MW of new capacity, making it one of the fastest‑growing AI and hyperscale buildout states in the U.S. cleanview.co Blackridge Research & Consulting



Planned Data Centers in North Carolina (2025–2028 Pipeline)​


Below is a structured breakdown of all major planned projects


ProjectDeveloperCapacityStatusRegion
AWS Richmond CountyAmazonNot disclosedUnder constructionSandhills
Digital Realty CharlotteDigital Realty400 MWPlanningCharlotte
ESS TarboroESS300 MWPermittingEdgecombe
Compass StatesvilleCompass~200 MWPlanningIredell
Microsoft CatawbaMicrosoftN/DUnder constructionCatawba
PowerHouse CharlottePowerHouse300–400 MWUnder constructionCharlotte
ESS KingsboroESS300 MW + BESSAnnouncedEdgecombe
ESS FayettevilleESS300 MW + BESSAnnouncedCumberland

Sources: Cleanview cleanview.co, Blackridge Research Blackridge Research & Consulting
 
I want what is in the US
You keep making statements about Australia, Germany, England
Then you try to equate these statements to the US

I actually spent an hour on South Australia
Somebody is making a ton of money at the expense of the Citizens of South Australia
Rates are artificially high because of marginal Cost Pricing
Costs are low for the producers the majority of days
But rates are set based on the few days of peak power needs
That is what happens with intermittent power when you have to make up supply on the spot market. Texas has seen the same thing.
 
So are you saying that system costs are the cost of transmission lines
Or are there more costs you want to add in as well

You are now entering the world of the "Grid"
The energy bills I have seen lately show line items for a variety of things
One is generally Transmission and Distribution

The costs of the lines, transformers, power poles, etc, etc are usually shown in the Transmission and Distribution line item

The US has underspent for years on our electrical grid
It is why when a storm hits, the lines go down
The bigger the storm, the more lines go down

In the Southeast, States have been hit by serious storms that have devastated regions
These costs are added in to the power bills
They do not add to cost of producing electricity
They do add to the cost of receiving electricity by the end user

If you want to compare apples to apples
fine
But you keep jumping around

Extra transmission lines, needed ONLY because of use of intermittent energy sources would indeed be part of the system costs, along with a lot of other things like battery backup, production backup with peaker plants, etc.

The legislation in Congress I mentioned only applies to transmission lines that are only built because one state demands "green energy" and sources it from another state. State A buys wind / solar produced in state D and transmission lines cross states B and C. State A could buy power closer to themselves but doesn't because of a "portfolio standard" or something similar. None of the actual power is sent to states B or C or even D. This bill would say that state A pays the total cost of that transmission line, not states B, C, and D which are not receiving power from it. Right now, ratepayers in all four are footing the bill.
 
That is what happens with intermittent power when you have to make up supply on the spot market. Texas has seen the same thing.
The question is
How often does it happen

How much is the total cost over a period

Annually would seem to be a good measure

Is the cost savings less than the cost of purchases on the spot market on an annual basis

Then you can tell me if there is a cost or savings using intermittent power
 
Extra transmission lines, needed ONLY because of use of intermittent energy sources would indeed be part of the system costs, along with a lot of other things like battery backup, production backup with peaker plants, etc.

The legislation in Congress I mentioned only applies to transmission lines that are only built because one state demands "green energy" and sources it from another state. State A buys wind / solar produced in state D and transmission lines cross states B and C. State A could buy power closer to themselves but doesn't because of a "portfolio standard" or something similar. None of the actual power is sent to states B or C or even D. This bill would say that state A pays the total cost of that transmission line, not states B, C, and D which are not receiving power from it. Right now, ratepayers in all four are footing the bill.

Who owns the transmission line
The end user pays the costs of moving energy down the line from source to end user

Example:

The Chokecherry and Sierra Wind Farms in Wyoming is a large wind farm project
It will send its' power somewhere else
The cost of the project including Transmission line is being paid by the
The Anschutz Corporation (through its subsidiary TransWest Express LLC)
It is not funded by Wyoming ratepayers.
Utilities in the Southwest (California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah) will eventually pay
capacity‑purchase fees when they contract to use the power from the wind farms

Can you provide an example of where ratepayers are footing the bill for this power line
The line would be part of the Transmission and Distribution rate on a ratepayer's bill
 
Last edited:
The question is
How often does it happen

How much is the total cost over a period

Annually would seem to be a good measure

Is the cost savings less than the cost of purchases on the spot market on an annual basis

Then you can tell me if there is a cost or savings using intermittent power
That varies from place to place with light winds or wind draughts reducing the amount of production. I have posted several graphs on this thread illustrating that.
 
That varies from place to place with light winds or wind draughts reducing the amount of production. I have posted several graphs on this thread illustrating that.
I was researching North Carolina utilities for about 10 minutes last night
The research I found says the average rate for electricity to the retail consumer is 13 to 16 cents a KWH
What was interesting is it said that retail rates do not break out grid costs in your state
 
Who owns the transmission line
The end user pays the costs of moving energy down the line from source to end user

Example:

The Chokecherry and Sierra Wind Farms in Wyoming is a large wind farm project
It will send its' power somewhere else
The cost of the project including Transmission line is being paid by the
The Anschutz Corporation (through its subsidiary TransWest Express LLC)
It is not funded by Wyoming ratepayers.
Utilities in the Southwest (California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah) will eventually pay
capacity‑purchase fees when they contract to use the power from the wind farms

Can you provide an example of where ratepayers are footing the bill for this power line
The line would be part of the Transmission and Distribution rate on a ratepayer's bill

The article above gives some general information, but you may want to contact the member of Congress who introduced the legislation to prohibit this practice, who is identified in the article, and I am sure would have more detailed information.

Another area where these wind / solar operations rip off local people will again vary by state, but is definitely in effect in North Carolina thanks to some sleazy lobbyists. The wind and solar freeloaders by state statute are exempt from paying county ad valorem property taxes on solar panel projects and wind turbines. Many county commissioners are really steamed about this and they should be. They have to provide services to these deadbeats but cannot tax them. If a utility built a conventional power plant, they would be taxed on it, but not the wind and solar freeloaders. Elderly people on fixed incomes are among those who have to pay higher taxes to make up for the solar deadbeats.

Fortunately only one of these big solar farms sneaked in before our commissioners got their solar ordinance in place to discourage them. That one is owned by a company from up north, which according to research from some of the outraged residents of the area who protested it, is owned by Russians. So they get a free ride on taxes and local people have to pay more.
 
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