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[2019] MVC Owner Update for Sheraton Owner

LeslieDet

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I attended a Vistana update/sales pitch, and I think that you perhaps misunderstood the pitch that your current Westin/Starwood properties would translate to 25k or 35k in Marriott "points". In the Vistana sales pitch that I attended, they were selling the "new" Vistana FlexOptions program. The pitch to me was that my existing Marriott ownership would qualify for between 25k - 35k each in "FlexOptions" points if I purchased an initial amount of FlexOptions from them. The different owner levels for FlexOptions were quite high, Vistana has what they call their 3-star, 4-star, and 5-star owner levels. The HomeOptions required to be a 3-star is 159,000, 4-star 359,000 and 5-star 649,000. So, my existing StarOptions for owning in Nanea are 95,700, and I'd get "credit" for my Marriott ownership in the range of 25k - 35k for each property, subject to a cap (which I think was something like 75k "FlexOptions", so I'd only need to purchase a nominal amount of FlexOptions (by trading in my current ownership and getting credit for the full price I paid), and I'd be in as a 3 star level owner. I'm pretty sure that they were not saying your existing Westin ownership is going to equal 25k-35k in "Destination Points". Hope that helps.
 

teddyo333

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I attended a Vistana update/sales pitch, and I think that you perhaps misunderstood the pitch that your current Westin/Starwood properties would translate to 25k or 35k in Marriott "points". In the Vistana sales pitch that I attended, they were selling the "new" Vistana FlexOptions program. The pitch to me was that my existing Marriott ownership would qualify for between 25k - 35k each in "FlexOptions" points if I purchased an initial amount of FlexOptions from them. The different owner levels for FlexOptions were quite high, Vistana has what they call their 3-star, 4-star, and 5-star owner levels. The HomeOptions required to be a 3-star is 159,000, 4-star 359,000 and 5-star 649,000. So, my existing StarOptions for owning in Nanea are 95,700, and I'd get "credit" for my Marriott ownership in the range of 25k - 35k for each property, subject to a cap (which I think was something like 75k "FlexOptions", so I'd only need to purchase a nominal amount of FlexOptions (by trading in my current ownership and getting credit for the full price I paid), and I'd be in as a 3 star level owner. I'm pretty sure that they were not saying your existing Westin ownership is going to equal 25k-35k in "Destination Points". Hope that helps.

I appreciate the input but the update that I attended was specific to Marriott Vacation Club and had nothing to do with Sheraton/Westin Flex. The range of points presented to me by the sale rep pertained to the locations where my Vistana properties currently reside (e.g., (1) Hawaii property possible 3K to 4K DP). My wife and I also attended a Vistana presentation where we were offered 5 star elite status to buy into Sheraton Flex and Retro an number of our units (Detail Can be found here) but of course we did not go for it. The elite status associate with Vistana & MVC are two separate entities and presentations by their respective sales reps are not interchangeable, at this time. This may change in the future but we won't know until an official announcement is made
 

JIMinNC

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I attended a Vistana update/sales pitch, and I think that you perhaps misunderstood the pitch that your current Westin/Starwood properties would translate to 25k or 35k in Marriott "points". In the Vistana sales pitch that I attended, they were selling the "new" Vistana FlexOptions program. The pitch to me was that my existing Marriott ownership would qualify for between 25k - 35k each in "FlexOptions" points if I purchased an initial amount of FlexOptions from them. The different owner levels for FlexOptions were quite high, Vistana has what they call their 3-star, 4-star, and 5-star owner levels. The HomeOptions required to be a 3-star is 159,000, 4-star 359,000 and 5-star 649,000. So, my existing StarOptions for owning in Nanea are 95,700, and I'd get "credit" for my Marriott ownership in the range of 25k - 35k for each property, subject to a cap (which I think was something like 75k "FlexOptions", so I'd only need to purchase a nominal amount of FlexOptions (by trading in my current ownership and getting credit for the full price I paid), and I'd be in as a 3 star level owner. I'm pretty sure that they were not saying your existing Westin ownership is going to equal 25k-35k in "Destination Points". Hope that helps.

As the OP said just above, since they were at a Marriott sales office, the rep would not have been trained to sell FlexOptions. Also, since the rep referred to the Marriott owner tiers (Chairman's level), the reference was most certainly to the rep's guess as to what the OP's Vistana portfolio might be worth "someday" in Destination Points. At this point it is probably still mostly sales BS, but since this was at a Marriott resort, they were most certainly talking Marriott points. In fact, if you look at the OP's ownership in their profile under their avatar, you can see that they own at least 9 Vistana properties it looks like, so that could be easily worth 25k-35k Destination Points.

But it is interesting that you were told at a Vistana office that your Marriott ownership might equate to 25k-35k FlexOptions each. What do you own? While it may/most likely be just be more sales BS, could it raise the possibility that they might planning to initially offer a "two-way" enrollment option? i.e. - Vistana owners could enroll their ownership in the Marriott DC by buying DC Points, and MVC owners could participate in the Vistana network by buying FlexOptions?
 

LeslieDet

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I appreciate the input but the update that I attended was specific to Marriott Vacation Club and had nothing to do with Sheraton/Westin Flex. The range of points presented to me by the sale rep pertained to the locations where my Vistana properties currently reside (e.g., (1) Hawaii property possible 3K to 4K DP). My wife and I also attended a Vistana presentation where we were offered 5 star elite status to buy into Sheraton Flex and Retro an number of our units (Detail Can be found here) but of course we did not go for it. The elite status associate with Vistana & MVC are two separate entities and presentations by their respective sales reps are not interchangeable, at this time. This may change in the future but we won't know until an official announcement is made
I understand that you attended a Marriott update - I actually own more MVCI than I do Westin. I attended the Westin/Vistana update because I wanted to understand what Vistana was pitching from their perspective, since they continue to "sell" timeshare ownership interests. I learned about the FlexOptions program and the various "owner" levels. I also was asking about how the properties could be integrated so that joint MVCI and Vistana owners can maximize their ownership. What I was trying to impart is that the pitch that your Vistana/Westin ownership is going to translate into 25-35k DPs is total crap. The values assigned to properties do not go that high unless it is something like a Ritz Carlton fractional ownership in Aspen. I was simply letting you know that value most likely relates to what value your Marriott weeks or points will be considered on the Westin side, not vice versa.
 

Fasttr

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I understand that you attended a Marriott update - I actually own more MVCI than I do Westin. I attended the Westin/Vistana update because I wanted to understand what Vistana was pitching from their perspective, since they continue to "sell" timeshare ownership interests. I learned about the FlexOptions program and the various "owner" levels. I also was asking about how the properties could be integrated so that joint MVCI and Vistana owners can maximize their ownership. What I was trying to impart is that the pitch that your Vistana/Westin ownership is going to translate into 25-35k DPs is total crap. The values assigned to properties do not go that high unless it is something like a Ritz Carlton fractional ownership in Aspen. I was simply letting you know that value most likely relates to what value your Marriott weeks or points will be considered on the Westin side, not vice versa.
The OP said this.... "25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own"

Note the word TOTAL. Near as I can tell from their profile, they own 9 or 10 such properties. Assuming 9 at 2,778 DC's per would get them to 25K total points. I am not sure what you are missing, but appears at least plausible from my perspective.
 

JIMinNC

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I understand that you attended a Marriott update - I actually own more MVCI than I do Westin. I attended the Westin/Vistana update because I wanted to understand what Vistana was pitching from their perspective, since they continue to "sell" timeshare ownership interests. I learned about the FlexOptions program and the various "owner" levels. I also was asking about how the properties could be integrated so that joint MVCI and Vistana owners can maximize their ownership. What I was trying to impart is that the pitch that your Vistana/Westin ownership is going to translate into 25-35k DPs is total crap. The values assigned to properties do not go that high unless it is something like a Ritz Carlton fractional ownership in Aspen. I was simply letting you know that value most likely relates to what value your Marriott weeks or points will be considered on the Westin side, not vice versa.

I think @teddyo333 meant the sales rep meant ALL of their Vistana week’s combined would equal a total of 25K to 35K DPs, not each. With them appearing to own 8 or 9 weeks, that is hardly crap. That’s only 2800 to 3800 DPs per week. Seems very reasonable to me.

Edit: Fasttr was faster!
 

LeslieDet

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As the OP said just above, since they were at a Marriott sales office, the rep would not have been trained to sell FlexOptions. Also, since the rep referred to the Marriott owner tiers (Chairman's level), the reference was most certainly to the rep's guess as to what the OP's Vistana portfolio might be worth "someday" in Destination Points. At this point it is probably still mostly sales BS, but since this was at a Marriott resort, they were most certainly talking Marriott points. In fact, if you look at the OP's ownership in their profile under their avatar, you can see that they own at least 9 Vistana properties it looks like, so that could be easily worth 25k-35k Destination Points.

But it is interesting that you were told at a Vistana office that your Marriott ownership might equate to 25k-35k FlexOptions each. What do you own? While it may/most likely be just be more sales BS, could it raise the possibility that they might planning to initially offer a "two-way" enrollment option? i.e. - Vistana owners could enroll their ownership in the Marriott DC by buying DC Points, and MVC owners could participate in the Vistana network by buying FlexOptions?
I completely understand that it was a MVCI sales pitch. Of course, the sales staff isn't selling FlexOptions for Vistana. But the pitch that their Vistana properties will be worth 25k-35k points in the MVCI system is most likely purely BS. I was letting the OP know that from the Vistana side, they are saying that MVCI ownership will translate into between 25k-35k FlexOptions (kind of like if there was a program "enrollment" of owned weeks), but what I also was told is that Vistana will only give these courtesy FlexOption "phantom" credits for a limited number of MVCI properties. I think the max was 3, it could have been less. But the Vistana properties are not going to come into the MVCI system at between 25k-35k each in DPs. That just isn't the values that prime MVCI weeks generate, unless it's a Ritz Carlton Aspen fractional ownership, and then that, when enrolled, is something like 25k DPs.

Anyway, I own 4 MVCI weeks plus DPs. I only own one Vistana property. I really was interested in hearing the pitch from the Vistana side, since I'm so familiar from the MVCI side. What the sales manager was saying is that MVW (the parent of MVCI and Vistana) is working to develop an exchange rate so that DPs can be converted or "exchanged" into FlexOptions and vice versa. It will not be a 1:1 exchange, and they did not know the formula, but repeatedly stated that they know that there is a plan to allow direct exchanges between MVCI DPs and Vistana FlexOption owners without needing to go through Interval.

From the Vistana side, only the "new" FlexOptions will be eligible to exchange (via whatever conversion rate is identified) into DPs, not the old "StarOptions". So, the pitch from Vistana sales is to buy FlexOptions now, use your existing Vistana ownership (as represented by a deed recorded in my situation in Hawaii) as a full price credit to purchase the new FlexOptions (which is a point system, simlar to DPs, reflected via a deed recorded in Florida), and then once the "conversion rate" is identified, I'd be able to use those FlexOptions to book MVCI properties, plus a total of 23 Vistana sites. I told them I have enough MVCI ownership, and that is not of interest to me, so I did not explore that any further.

BTW - With FlexOptions, there are 8 'home' resorts, and 15 other Vistana sites that are then available to book starting at month 8. Again, they were pitching sales from Vistana's side, and to get my FlexOptions now, and then I'd be able to get special "phantom" FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownership (capped) that would be counted towards my Vistana "star" level - whether 3, 4 or 5.

I've attended 3 owner updates/sales pitches on the MVCI side so far this year. They always have pitched that 46 new properties are coming into the system based upon the acquisition (Vistana and Hyatt), so buy more points now because the price is going up, plus there will be new owner levels. That's a standard sales pitch. When I question how the interface will happen between MVCI and Vistana, the MVCI sales folks always are vague (obviously, and expected), but the one thing that has been uniform in each update is that in the acquisition of ILG and Hyatt, only "unsold inventory" was acquired by MVCI, and that the ownership that existed prior to the acquisition would be managed by MVCI and those owners would still use and occupy their weeks as before. (Kind of like what is "unenrolled" weeks in the MVCI system). So, no matter what, DPs are not going to have access to anything that was not "unsold" inventory at the time of the acquisition, and the old Vistana owners are not going to have access to MVCI properties (absent a new purchase of FlexOptions). I know it is complicated, and it is difficult to explain everything here, but with Vistana launching the FlexOptions program in January 2018 and selling points currently, it really seems that Vistana and MVCI will continue to co-exist as sister corporations under the MVW umbrella. There will not be a melding of the ownership; but I do believe that there will be some sort of currency exchange rate identified between DPs and FlexOptions that will then allow mutual access. Indeed, the Vistana sales manager continually referred to the term "currency" and that the points on both sides will be "currency".
 

LeslieDet

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The OP said this.... "25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own"

Note the word TOTAL. Near as I can tell from their profile, they own 9 or 10 such properties. Assuming 9 at 2,778 DC's per would get them to 25K total points. I am not sure what you are missing, but appears at least plausible from my perspective.
This is what the OP said: "The sale rep told us that there would be a range of points that would be associated with each of our current Sheraton/Westin properties and that would equate to 25K to 35K total points based on the properties we own".

I don't know about you, but when I read: "there would be a range of points that would be associated with EACH of our current ... that would equate to 25K to 35K total points..." - Note the word EACH! I am not trying to "miss" anything; and I don't participate in these forums and don't look at avatars, etc., but I read that and when I saw the word EACH, it seemed to me that there was a lot of BS floating around (especially because of the pitch from the Vistana side that my Marriott properties would be worth between 25k and 35k FlexOptions). It would not be the first time that a sales person did not have a clue and started spitting out numbers that they may have heard in a sales meeting.
 

LeslieDet

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I think @teddyo333 meant the sales rep meant ALL of their Vistana week’s combined would equal a total of 25K to 35K DPs, not each. With them appearing to own 8 or 9 weeks, that is hardly crap. That’s only 2800 to 3800 DPs per week. Seems very reasonable to me.

Edit: Fasttr was faster!
Ok - they may have meant to say that, but this is not how I read it. I saw the word "EACH" and I read the post to mean that each property would be worth that range. I agree that if its only 2800 to 3800 per property, that is reasonable. But, I'm skeptical that all properties would count, especially because from my Vistana update, my ownership in MVCI will only count if I buy the new FlexOptions (and there is a cap on what counts); so I sincerely doubt that old Vistana ownership will be "enrolled" and count towards DPs.
 
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JIMinNC

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Ok - they may have meant to say that, but this is not how I read it. I saw the word "EACH" and I read the post to mean that each property would be worth that range. I agree that if its only 2800 to 3800 per property, that is reasonable. But, I'm skeptical that all properties would count, especially because from my Vistana update, my ownership in MVCI will only count if I buy the new FlexOptions; so I sincerely doubt that old Vistana ownership will be "enrolled" and count towards DPs.

The answer is we don’t know what they will do - and the sales reps most probably don’t yet either. They are just saying what they think will convince you to buy something. There have been multiple long threads recently that have beat this to death. The only people that really know what is coming are senior folks at corporate. We are hoping they will divulge more info at their Investor Day at the New York Stock Exchange on Oct 4.

But they allowed legacy Marriott weeks to enroll for DPs 9 years ago, so they could easily do the same for Vistana. It would be the only way to get existing weeks in the system. But we’ll know when we know and always take sales with a huge grain of salt.

And to the other point, the OP did say they were told that EACH of their properties would get a range of point allocations, but then said, as you quoted, “...and that would equate to 25k to 35k total points based on the properties we own.” The use of the word “total” here clearly says to me that is all 9 weeks combined.
 

LeslieDet

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The answer is we don’t know what they will do - and the sales reps most probably don’t yet either. They are just saying what they think will convince you to buy something. There have been multiple long threads recently that have beat this to death. The only people that really know what is coming are senior folks at corporate. We are hoping they will divulge more info at their Investor Day at the New York Stock Exchange on Oct 4.

But they allowed legacy Marriott weeks to enroll for DPs 9 years ago, so they could easily do the same for Vistana. It would be the only way to get existing weeks in the system. But we’ll know when we know and always take sales with a huge grain of salt.

And to the other point, the OP did say they were told that EACH of their properties would get a range of point allocations, but then said, as you quoted, “...and that would equate to 25k to 35k total points based on the properties we own.” The use of the word “total” here clearly says to me that is all 9 weeks combined.
You really want to criticize me because the OP was ambiguous? LOL - you made an inference as to total, and I relied upon "each", but glad to know you can read minds....I've failed to perfect that talent.

As to the enrollment issue, what your comment completely ignores is that old Vistana owners are never going to be "enrolled" into the MVCI system like MVCI week owners were offered when MVCI rolled out the DP program. The companies are different. The old Vistana owners cannot be enrolled because their property is not part of the MVCI system. MVCI and Vistana are SISTER corporations. This was not a merger. MVW is the parent corp. Moreover, what you are ignoring is that Vistana offered to basically "enroll" my Vistana ownership into the FlexOptions program. And then they offered to give me "phantom" FlexOptions for my MVCI ownership, thereby recognizing that I own in both, and those phantom FlexOptions would only count towards my "owner" level - ie the 3-5 star system, which, like the MVCI owner levels, gives a varying range of benefits, like extended banking of options, discounts, etc. Those phantom options would not be able to be used to book any Vistana stay. They were simply for identifying an owner "status". So, on the flip side, it is possible that one's Vistana FlexOption status could potentially translate into phantom DPs, for purposes of identifying an owner level (ie reaching Chairman, or whatever), but standing alone, they will not be able to be used to book a stay with DPs. Thus, the companies are working to identify an "exchange rate" so that there can be some way to use the DPs and FlexOptions as currency to book directly and avoid the Interval platform.
 

teddyo333

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@LeslieDet pardon me if my statement came across as "ambiguous". I try to be as clear as possible when posting because I appreciate the information that all Tuggers have given me over the years. And I would like to pay it forward. In regards to your statements pertaining to what the future program "will or will not be", I am interested in whatever documentation you have to backup your statements. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but I don't believe anything until it is in writing (I'm weird like that). I think it would be beneficial to everyone if we stick to what we know to be factual. It is ok to speculate/hope for a program that suits our individual needs. But in the end Marriott will do whatever is best for the business and until we have an official announcement we should try to have as constructive a conversation as possible.
 

LeslieDet

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@LeslieDet pardon me if my statement came across as "ambiguous". I try to be as clear as possible when posting because I appreciate the information that all Tuggers have given me over the years. And I would like to pay it forward. In regards to your statements pertaining to what the future program "will or will not be", I am interested in whatever documentation you have to backup your statements. I am not saying that you are right or wrong but I don't believe anything until it is in writing (I'm weird like that). I think it would be beneficial to everyone if we stick to what we know to be factual. It is ok to speculate/hope for a program that suits our individual needs. But in the end Marriott will do whatever is best for the business and until we have an official announcement we should try to have as constructive a conversation as possible.

I read your OP and I added a comment, because it seemed to me that there was a lot of misinformation being provided to you by the MVCI sales rep. I was trying to help. You don't have to apologize to me for being ambiguous, but it was very coincidental that the 25k-35k range was what was said to me as to what my MVCI's will be valued at from Vistana's perspective. That is why I was speculating that perhaps the sales person was hearing numbers at a staff meeting and tossing them out to you. That is all.

As to what will happen in the future, I am simply evaluating the information as I receive it; part of my desire to attend the Vistana sales pitch was to ask from that side what was happening vis-a-vis the MVW acquisition of ILG. There is a way to "reverse engineer" what they are attempting to do, when one understands the MVCI program well. As I've said, I own 4 weeks plus DPs. I've been to 3 MVCI updates this year, and always stay informed. I understand the legal background of the DP program. I am aware of the legal differences between a merger and an acquisition. I'm not trying to push my view at all, I am simply commenting that if you pull together the FACTS, then you can start to draw the lines to connect how things work. That is what I did for a living for the past 35 years. That is all. I have identified various facts that I am relying upon. It is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the picture, you can still do it, you just have to figure out what fits together and makes sense.

What "fits" together in this circumstance is that both MVCI and Vistana have acknowledged that in the acquisition, only unsold inventory was acquired. The original Vistana resorts continue to exist, and the ownership in the USA is deeded to specific locations. I do not know how ownership was structured by Vistana for the non-USA locations. I know, as a Vistana owner in Hawaii, that I received a notice from my ownership association last year advising me that while there was a sale, everything was staying the same for my specific ownership and that Vistana was simply now being operated under the MVW umbrella, but I am to contact Vistana to deal with my ownership. I was to continue to book my StarOptions as usual. Then this year (2019), I received a notice from my Vistana ownership association that one single building at Nanea had been sold to the Westin FlexOptions program, and therefore, the units that corresponded to that particular building were no longer owned and subject to booking with the StarOptions that I owned, but the remainder of the property remained as originally sold and available for booking. Basically, they told me that they were now at 100% sale and occupancy for the old deeded ownership. So, that is one piece of the puzzle.

The next piece of the puzzle is that Vistana is now selling FlexOptions. These were created under the same FL statute as the DP program. The FlexOptions program was formed 1/4/18. That is the ONLY thing that Vistana is selling now (similar to what MVCI did when the DP program was created). If you understand the FL law for these land trusts, in order to be able to legally sell the FlexOptions (ie points), the FlexOption program must have a deeded ownership in real estate. The deeded ownership that exists is what was the "unsold" inventory at the time of the MVW acquisition. The FlexOptions program now has what they refer to as 8 "home" locations where the FlexOptions can book any of those 8 home locations exclusively at months 9-12, just like the old Vistana program allows owners at the deeded location to exclusively book their home resort months 9-12, and then at month 8, the entire system is opened up for booking with the StarOptions. So, the FlexOptions program having 8 "home" resorts, including one single building at Nanea, is yet another fact that is put into the puzzle. This itself confirms that the unsold inventory was transferred into the points based ownership (just like what happened when the DP system was formed in 2010). Those 8 home resorts in the FlexOptions program are all USA based.

Under the FL land trust statutes, ownership is not some mythical creature. There are specific locations owned, that directly relate to the number of points that can be sold. The quantity available for sale cannot be increased absent additional properties being added to the specific land trust. Just like how the DP system works. That is factual. Moreover, the deeds recorded for point ownership are real. It is not something that can simply be changed because MVW decides to change the program. It is real estate ownership. To alter or disband the points program is not something that is practical or realistic. It is not like a stock or mutual fund where the entity can force a redemption and go "private" by a controlling vote of the board.

More importantly, MVW cannot force anyone to sell their real estate ownership. Recall, prior to DPs, all USA based weeks that were sold by MVCI were deeded. The same is true with the Vistana ownership. The timeshare ownership interests in the USA based Vistana/Westin properties is reflected by a deed recorded in the county in which the timeshare is located. Neither MVC or ILG can force the individual owners to sell their week back. That is a legal fact. But what ILG can do is try and induce those deeded owners to sell their ownership back to ILG/Vistana by offering to credit that owner their full purchase price if they agree to purchase into the FlexOptions program (that is factual, that is the offer I received). What does that accomplish? It reduces the individual deeded ownership and transfers that week equivalent into the FlexOptions program.

Then, I factor in my experiences with the 3 MVCI owner updates I attended this year and the one Vistana update. It was pitched that there would be additional properties available, so buy DPs now, but no one could explain how the DPs would work at these new properties. It was pitched that MVW acquired Interval and Westin, so there would be so much more inventory, but when I asked why, on the Interval platform, a MVCI week deposit could not trade into a Westin location "free", like you can into other MVCI locations, it was admitted that they are separate companies and thus Interval will still charge a fee (and this is from my Interval DP based account, where MVCI to MVCI trades are "free").

The acquisition documents clearly establish that MVW is the parent corp of MVCI and ILG. The Vistana sales folks state that they now are employed under the "Marriott" umbrella, since MVW owns ILG. There has been published reports for investors that MVW is exploring a "cross-use" of the various timeshare brands under the MVW umbrella.

If there is going to be a cross-use, it makes sense that MVW is working to develop an "exchange" rate between the various brands. That will add value to all brands, if MVW can expand the accessible locations of the vacation destinations presently being booked by each brand by creating its own "currency". Thus, the sales folks for both brands are pitching that at some point in the near future there will be access between the brands. I do not believe that is just a BS pitch. I do believe that it what the sales managers are being told by corporate. That is why the sales folks are pitching buy now, because: 1) the cost to buy points (whether DPs or FlexOptions) will go up, and 2) buy now and lock in your owner level (MVCI - Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman; or Vistana 3, 4 or 5 Star) because once the cross-brands are accessible to all sides, you'll have to be at a high owner level in order to get that benefit. I do not believe that the sales folks come up with that idea on their own, especiallly because the pitch is consistent among brands. Now, I don't know what that exchange rate will be, but I do believe that the concept has definitely been batted around otherwise the sale staff for both MVCI and Vistana would not be using a virtually identical pitch.

So, when I see folks saying that they are going to wait until the programs are merged, I look at the facts and say, that would be a very difficult, if not impossible process, especially given that the programs are running on parallel tracks. Do I believe that there will be some ability to exchange between them? Yes I do. Do I believe that the old Vistana deeded ownership will be enrolled into the DP system? Nope. Just like I do not believe that the unenrolled MVCI week ownership will be able to access the Vistana/Westin properties (outside of Interval). I believe that it will be quite possible that if enrollment is offered on the Vistana side, old Vistana ownership may be brought into the FlexOptions program, which then may be used as a currency to convert into DPs. Just like I believe DPs will be a currency that can be converted into FlexOptions. But I do not believe that there will be only one "universal" currency.

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. I, also, look forward to the investor statement in October.
 

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I read your OP and I added a comment, because it seemed to me that there was a lot of misinformation being provided to you by the MVCI sales rep. I was trying to help. You don't have to apologize to me for being ambiguous, but it was very coincidental that the 25k-35k range was what was said to me as to what my MVCI's will be valued at from Vistana's perspective. That is why I was speculating that perhaps the sales person was hearing numbers at a staff meeting and tossing them out to you. That is all.

As to what will happen in the future, I am simply evaluating the information as I receive it; part of my desire to attend the Vistana sales pitch was to ask from that side what was happening vis-a-vis the MVW acquisition of ILG. There is a way to "reverse engineer" what they are attempting to do, when one understands the MVCI program well. As I've said, I own 4 weeks plus DPs. I've been to 3 MVCI updates this year, and always stay informed. I understand the legal background of the DP program. I am aware of the legal differences between a merger and an acquisition. I'm not trying to push my view at all, I am simply commenting that if you pull together the FACTS, then you can start to draw the lines to connect how things work. That is what I did for a living for the past 35 years. That is all. I have identified various facts that I am relying upon. It is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the picture, you can still do it, you just have to figure out what fits together and makes sense.

What "fits" together in this circumstance is that both MVCI and Vistana have acknowledged that in the acquisition, only unsold inventory was acquired. The original Vistana resorts continue to exist, and the ownership in the USA is deeded to specific locations. I do not know how ownership was structured by Vistana for the non-USA locations. I know, as a Vistana owner in Hawaii, that I received a notice from my ownership association last year advising me that while there was a sale, everything was staying the same for my specific ownership and that Vistana was simply now being operated under the MVW umbrella, but I am to contact Vistana to deal with my ownership. I was to continue to book my StarOptions as usual. Then this year (2019), I received a notice from my Vistana ownership association that one single building at Nanea had been sold to the Westin FlexOptions program, and therefore, the units that corresponded to that particular building were no longer owned and subject to booking with the StarOptions that I owned, but the remainder of the property remained as originally sold and available for booking. Basically, they told me that they were now at 100% sale and occupancy for the old deeded ownership. So, that is one piece of the puzzle.

The next piece of the puzzle is that Vistana is now selling FlexOptions. These were created under the same FL statute as the DP program. The FlexOptions program was formed 1/4/18. That is the ONLY thing that Vistana is selling now (similar to what MVCI did when the DP program was created). If you understand the FL law for these land trusts, in order to be able to legally sell the FlexOptions (ie points), the FlexOption program must have a deeded ownership in real estate. The deeded ownership that exists is what was the "unsold" inventory at the time of the MVW acquisition. The FlexOptions program now has what they refer to as 8 "home" locations where the FlexOptions can book any of those 8 home locations exclusively at months 9-12, just like the old Vistana program allows owners at the deeded location to exclusively book their home resort months 9-12, and then at month 8, the entire system is opened up for booking with the StarOptions. So, the FlexOptions program having 8 "home" resorts, including one single building at Nanea, is yet another fact that is put into the puzzle. This itself confirms that the unsold inventory was transferred into the points based ownership (just like what happened when the DP system was formed in 2010). Those 8 home resorts in the FlexOptions program are all USA based.

Under the FL land trust statutes, ownership is not some mythical creature. There are specific locations owned, that directly relate to the number of points that can be sold. The quantity available for sale cannot be increased absent additional properties being added to the specific land trust. Just like how the DP system works. That is factual. Moreover, the deeds recorded for point ownership are real. It is not something that can simply be changed because MVW decides to change the program. It is real estate ownership. To alter or disband the points program is not something that is practical or realistic. It is not like a stock or mutual fund where the entity can force a redemption and go "private" by a controlling vote of the board.

More importantly, MVW cannot force anyone to sell their real estate ownership. Recall, prior to DPs, all USA based weeks that were sold by MVCI were deeded. The same is true with the Vistana ownership. The timeshare ownership interests in the USA based Vistana/Westin properties is reflected by a deed recorded in the county in which the timeshare is located. Neither MVC or ILG can force the individual owners to sell their week back. That is a legal fact. But what ILG can do is try and induce those deeded owners to sell their ownership back to ILG/Vistana by offering to credit that owner their full purchase price if they agree to purchase into the FlexOptions program (that is factual, that is the offer I received). What does that accomplish? It reduces the individual deeded ownership and transfers that week equivalent into the FlexOptions program.

Then, I factor in my experiences with the 3 MVCI owner updates I attended this year and the one Vistana update. It was pitched that there would be additional properties available, so buy DPs now, but no one could explain how the DPs would work at these new properties. It was pitched that MVW acquired Interval and Westin, so there would be so much more inventory, but when I asked why, on the Interval platform, a MVCI week deposit could not trade into a Westin location "free", like you can into other MVCI locations, it was admitted that they are separate companies and thus Interval will still charge a fee (and this is from my Interval DP based account, where MVCI to MVCI trades are "free").

The acquisition documents clearly establish that MVW is the parent corp of MVCI and ILG. The Vistana sales folks state that they now are employed under the "Marriott" umbrella, since MVW owns ILG. There has been published reports for investors that MVW is exploring a "cross-use" of the various timeshare brands under the MVW umbrella.

If there is going to be a cross-use, it makes sense that MVW is working to develop an "exchange" rate between the various brands. That will add value to all brands, if MVW can expand the accessible locations of the vacation destinations presently being booked by each brand by creating its own "currency". Thus, the sales folks for both brands are pitching that at some point in the near future there will be access between the brands. I do not believe that is just a BS pitch. I do believe that it what the sales managers are being told by corporate. That is why the sales folks are pitching buy now, because: 1) the cost to buy points (whether DPs or FlexOptions) will go up, and 2) buy now and lock in your owner level (MVCI - Select, Executive, Presidential, Chairman; or Vistana 3, 4 or 5 Star) because once the cross-brands are accessible to all sides, you'll have to be at a high owner level in order to get that benefit. I do not believe that the sales folks come up with that idea on their own, especiallly because the pitch is consistent among brands. Now, I don't know what that exchange rate will be, but I do believe that the concept has definitely been batted around otherwise the sale staff for both MVCI and Vistana would not be using a virtually identical pitch.

So, when I see folks saying that they are going to wait until the programs are merged, I look at the facts and say, that would be a very difficult, if not impossible process, especially given that the programs are running on parallel tracks. Do I believe that there will be some ability to exchange between them? Yes I do. Do I believe that the old Vistana deeded ownership will be enrolled into the DP system? Nope. Just like I do not believe that the unenrolled MVCI week ownership will be able to access the Vistana/Westin properties (outside of Interval). I believe that it will be quite possible that if enrollment is offered on the Vistana side, old Vistana ownership may be brought into the FlexOptions program, which then may be used as a currency to convert into DPs. Just like I believe DPs will be a currency that can be converted into FlexOptions. But I do not believe that there will be only one "universal" currency.

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. I, also, look forward to the investor statement in October.

But when all is said and done...we don’t know. No one here who, like you, understands the systems, has suggested the systems will be merged. Most of the speculation has centered on what the cross-program exchange option might look like. Sales has offered hints, but we don’t know where their facts stop and their spin begins. As long as we keep that last point in the forefront we will be fine. Hopefully the Investor Day will offer more info.
 

SueDonJ

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... As to the enrollment issue, what your comment completely ignores is that old Vistana owners are never going to be "enrolled" into the MVCI system like MVCI week owners were offered when MVCI rolled out the DP program. The companies are different. The old Vistana owners cannot be enrolled because their property is not part of the MVCI system. MVCI and Vistana are SISTER corporations. This was not a merger. ...

I don't think anybody here doesn't understand that the Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshare companies are still completely unrelated companies despite all of them coming under the Marriott Vacation Worldwide umbrella.

I do think, though, that you're misunderstanding what "enrollment" meant for Marriott Weeks when the Marriott Destination Club was rolled out. Weeks Owners who chose to enroll their Weeks did not give up any of the existing usage/ownership rights of their Weeks, they didn't permanently exchange them for an allotment of Destination Club Points. Enrollment does not result in a material change to the Weeks. It simply means that in addition to every other usage option, subject to a one-time Enrollment Fee and annual Club Dues fees, eligible Weeks can be exchanged on an annual basis for an allotment of DC Points which can be used for (among other options) exchanging via the Destination Club Exchange Company.

When the DC was introduced the legal documents were immediately made available. Reading the docs particular to the DC Exchange Company, it was immediately apparent that it could in fact act as a stand-alone exchange company should MVW choose to allow others to participate. It doesn't appear that there are any legal impediments in the set-up of the DC Exchange Company that would prevent MVW from allowing Vistana, Hyatt or any other timeshare intervals to become participants. It would entail MVW establishing the DC Points allotment amounts for any and every different Vistana/Hyatt/whatever interval that would be offered enrollment, but with the Marriott Weeks amounts already established it'd be fairly easy for MVW to follow similar patterns for any others newly brought onboard. Marriott Weeks owners who enrolled signed legal Enrollment Agreements, and, paid a one-time Enrollment Fee and recurring annual DC Club Dues fees. Again, those legal docs could be the basic template that MVW begins with, adjusting specifics for other-branded timeshares, and the fees are easily copied.

None of us knows what sort of integration will eventually happen but the most difficult would be a total integration of all Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshares into a single product that's sold at every site and works the same for everyone, which is a highly doubtful outcome that I don't think anyone is expecting. The easiest, IMO, short of absolutely no integration at all, would be each system maintaining its brands and deeded usage options separately while at the same time, allowing owners from each system to enroll eligible intervals in the Destination Club Exchange Company for access to "internal" exchanges across all brands that come under the MVW umbrella. That's still my guess as to what will happen, but I've certainly been wrong before. :)
 

LeslieDet

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I don't think anybody here doesn't understand that the Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshare companies are still completely unrelated companies despite all of them coming under the Marriott Vacation Worldwide umbrella.

I do think, though, that you're misunderstanding what "enrollment" meant for Marriott Weeks when the Marriott Destination Club was rolled out. Weeks Owners who chose to enroll their Weeks did not give up any of the existing usage/ownership rights of their Weeks, they didn't permanently exchange them for an allotment of Destination Club Points. Enrollment does not result in a material change to the Weeks. It simply means that in addition to every other usage option, subject to a one-time Enrollment Fee and annual Club Dues fees, eligible Weeks can be exchanged on an annual basis for an allotment of DC Points which can be used for (among other options) exchanging via the Destination Club Exchange Company.

When the DC was introduced the legal documents were immediately made available. Reading the docs particular to the DC Exchange Company, it was immediately apparent that it could in fact act as a stand-alone exchange company should MVW choose to allow others to participate. It doesn't appear that there are any legal impediments in the set-up of the DC Exchange Company that would prevent MVW from allowing Vistana, Hyatt or any other timeshare intervals to become participants. It would entail MVW establishing the DC Points allotment amounts for any and every different Vistana/Hyatt/whatever interval that would be offered enrollment, but with the Marriott Weeks amounts already established it'd be fairly easy for MVW to follow similar patterns for any others newly brought onboard. Marriott Weeks owners who enrolled signed legal Enrollment Agreements, and, paid a one-time Enrollment Fee and recurring annual DC Club Dues fees. Again, those legal docs could be the basic template that MVW begins with, adjusting specifics for other-branded timeshares, and the fees are easily copied.

None of us knows what sort of integration will eventually happen but the most difficult would be a total integration of all Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt timeshares into a single product that's sold at every site and works the same for everyone, which is a highly doubtful outcome that I don't think anyone is expecting. The easiest, IMO, short of absolutely no integration at all, would be each system maintaining its brands and deeded usage options separately while at the same time, allowing owners from each system to enroll eligible intervals in the Destination Club Exchange Company for access to "internal" exchanges across all brands that come under the MVW umbrella. That's still my guess as to what will happen, but I've certainly been wrong before. :)

I understand exactly what the term "enrollment" means - indeed, I own a MVCI week that is enrolled in the DP program (at no cost); and I also own weeks that are not enrolled. One of the reasons I believe that MVCI is not going to offer "enrollment" into DPs to original Vistana/Westin owners is because that is the pitch that Vistana is currently making to the owners via the FlexOptions program. It is not logical to have Vistana pitching to the pre-acquisition Vistana owners to join the FlexOptions program, if the long term plan is to offer "enrollment" via the MVCI DP system. While I'm not privy to the agreements between MVCI and ILG, there is still name brand separation that is of interest to MVW. And, recall, the DP system and the value of owned weeks when enrolled, was determined within the DP system. The bookings in the DP system are all designated points, those do not change. The value assigned to an enrolled week doesn't change. It is closed. Any point changes made to particular inventory of a DP resort is a zero sum game absent additional (new) inventory acquired. The Vistana properties do not have equivalent DP points, they have StarOptions. That is why, IMO, MVW is working on an exchange rate or a conversion rate that will allow DPs to be converted into FlexOptions and vice versa. An old Vistana property isn't going to be valued based upon DPs, it will be valued based upon FlexOptions.
 

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My personal bias is that I would hope it would be a "buy-in" by trading a deed for a credit toward FlexOptions as LeslieDet suggests, but I don't see what would prevent MVW (sorry if I get the acronyms wrong) from offering "enrollment" to Starwood/Vistana owners to get an initial number of units in as a selling point for new DP and FlexOptions sales (just like they did initially with DP) by igniting interest for people wanting to try the "new" resorts. Since enrolled weeks aren't permanently transferred into the trust, the week is just transferred in yearly as an election in exchange for points , nothing in the legal ownership of the week has changed. It seems pretty clear that there will need to be a conversion ratio, since the point values in each system are vastly different. The fact that a salesperson is trying to get someone to exchange a deed for points is pretty much what the salespeople have been doing since the industry moved from weeks to points, but I don't think it indicates whether or not an offer of enrollment is forthcoming or not. As I said before, I wouldn't trust a salesperson to say, don't buy now because a change is imminent. I'm still going to keep my fingers crossed that enrollment is for a limited number of weeks and with the purchase of points just like Marriott is offering to current Marriott owners with unenrolled weeks. I'm not opposed to change, I'd just prefer it be gradual, for my own selfish reasons,plus I hate purchasing something and finding out the very next day that it's 50% off.:mad:
 

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I completely understand that it was a MVCI sales pitch. Of course, the sales staff isn't selling FlexOptions for Vistana. But the pitch that their Vistana properties will be worth 25k-35k points in the MVCI system is most likely purely BS. I was letting the OP know that from the Vistana side, they are saying that MVCI ownership will translate into between 25k-35k FlexOptions (kind of like if there was a program "enrollment" of owned weeks), but what I also was told is that Vistana will only give these courtesy FlexOption "phantom" credits for a limited number of MVCI properties. I think the max was 3, it could have been less. But the Vistana properties are not going to come into the MVCI system at between 25k-35k each in DPs. That just isn't the values that prime MVCI weeks generate, unless it's a Ritz Carlton Aspen fractional ownership, and then that, when enrolled, is something like 25k DPs.
...
BTW - With FlexOptions, there are 8 'home' resorts, and 15 other Vistana sites that are then available to book starting at month 8. Again, they were pitching sales from Vistana's side, and to get my FlexOptions now, and then I'd be able to get special "phantom" FlexOptions based upon my MVCI ownership (capped) that would be counted towards my Vistana "star" level - whether 3, 4 or 5.

Your posting made me think of the classic Guide to 5* thread by SDKath over in the Vistana forum. Post #102 is the most relevant I think and would correspond to your "max 3"

[2008] SDKath's guide to 5* platinum [merged]

I think you might be misunderstanding the phantom options - these are not based upon the point/market value of your current Marriott weeks - they are simply an amount that Vistana would gift to you to get you to the next star level if you are slightly short. As you point out they could not be used for booking in the system or anything else. Vistana would give these to you regardless of whether your other timeshare was Marriott, DVC, HGVC or Four Seasons. It is not related to the value of your timeshare in any way.

Now if the question is "How many StarOptions would my 2 BR MOC unit theoretically be worth" you probably would have received a different answer (my guess would be 148,100). This would be the mirror question to what the OP was stating (at least how I interpreted it) of how many DP would the Vistana weeks be worth if they were in MVCI.
 

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Your posting made me think of the classic Guide to 5* thread by SDKath over in the Vistana forum. Post #102 is the most relevant I think and would correspond to your "max 3"

[2008] SDKath's guide to 5* platinum [merged]

I think you might be misunderstanding the phantom options - these are not based upon the point/market value of your current Marriott weeks - they are simply an amount that Vistana would gift to you to get you to the next star level if you are slightly short. As you point out they could not be used for booking in the system or anything else. Vistana would give these to you regardless of whether your other timeshare was Marriott, DVC, HGVC or Four Seasons. It is not related to the value of your timeshare in any way.

Now if the question is "How many StarOptions would my 2 BR MOC unit theoretically be worth" you probably would have received a different answer (my guess would be 148,100). This would be the mirror question to what the OP was stating (at least how I interpreted it) of how many DP would the Vistana weeks be worth if they were in MVCI.

I'm not familiar with that feed, and I have only recently started looking at the Marriott forum here because it was referenced in another group I belong to. I'm not saying that the phantom options are supposed to reflect the "value" of my MVCI ownership, indeed, they did not care whether I owned a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom and did not care where, that is simply to give me a boost to reach the Vistana "star" levels that they are pitching. Which is why there is a cap on the number of properties that will receive the "courtesy" or "phantom" options for purposes of improving my owner level status. Of course there is a recognition of a sister brand, just as there is a big sales pitch that my existing StarOptions can be exchanged into BonVoy points, that is just cross selling. It's a courtesy. I disagree though that there would be the same courtesy credit if I owned a competitor like Disney.

I really don't envision a manner in which an MVCI owned week is going to be assigned a given amount of FlexOptions, just as I do not see that my Vistana week is ever going to be assigned DPs. Rather, there will be an exchange rate. I do believe (and have referred to DPs like this for years) that they DPs and now the FlexOptions are basically "Marriott" money. MVW is trying to identify the exchange rate, just like there is an exchange rate between USD and euros. It is just that the exchange rate between DPs and FlexOptions will be fixed, and not subject to change, absent a major asset increase (adding additional properties) by one of the brands. There will still be a path required to go from MVCI to Vistana and steps taken, it will just be without needing to also go to Interval like is the current process, rather, there will be a formula, like (hypothetically) 1 DP = 50 FlexOptions, and there may very well be some other transaction cost to exchange DPs into FlexOptions and vice versa. I also believe that the old Vistana ownership will not automatically qualify for the FlexOptions, and that folks on the Vistana side are going to have to buy FlexOptions in order to "enroll" their original Vistana ownership and then be able to use their FlexOptions to exchange into DPs. And on the MVCI side, we already have the established DP program and enrollment rules, and we know that unenrolled weeks cannot elect DPs and cannot be counted towards the owner level that is the DP program.
 

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One of the reasons I believe that MVCI is not going to offer "enrollment" into DPs to original Vistana/Westin owners is because that is the pitch that Vistana is currently making to the owners via the FlexOptions program. It is not logical to have Vistana pitching to the pre-acquisition Vistana owners to join the FlexOptions program, if the long term plan is to offer "enrollment" via the MVCI DP system.

That is sound logic, just looking at Vistana in isolation. But we have had several TUGgers report that Marriott sales reps are telling Vistana owners that enrollment options WILL be offered to legacy Vistana weeks. So, I'm not sure why the Vistana reps should be trusted any more than the MVC reps. In my opinion, they both are probably just spinning the uncertainty as best they can to try to sell what they can. They still have to make a living, so they need to sell.

And, recall, the DP system and the value of owned weeks when enrolled, was determined within the DP system. The bookings in the DP system are all designated points, those do not change. The value assigned to an enrolled week doesn't change. It is closed. Any point changes made to particular inventory of a DP resort is a zero sum game absent additional (new) inventory acquired. The Vistana properties do not have equivalent DP points, they have StarOptions. That is why, IMO, MVW is working on an exchange rate or a conversion rate that will allow DPs to be converted into FlexOptions and vice versa. An old Vistana property isn't going to be valued based upon DPs, it will be valued based upon FlexOptions.

Correct that the DP system is a zero-sum game, but adding Vistana weeks to the DP would have no effect on the existing MVC resorts or DP allocations. If MVC decided to offer Vistana weeks DC enrollment so they could play in any cross-brand exchange, all they would have to do is assign each Vistana resort/unit size/view etc. a DP point value, just like they did for the legacy MVC weeks many years ago. They do the same thing when they add new resorts like the recently-added San Francisco Pulse - they assign each interval a DP value.

If they decide not to let legacy Vistana weeks play in any cross-brand exchange, then I agree with you that a FlexOptions to DP (and vice versa) exchange ratio would be a possibility, but then to be fair, they would have to also exclude legacy/enrolled MVC weeks and limit the cross-brand exchange to only DP Trust Points, not Enrolled/Elected points. So that scenario would mean DC Trust points could be converted to FlexOptions and FlexOptions to DC Trust points, but the weeks-based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange. Maybe if they were convinced that benefit would help them sell a lot more DC Trust points and FlexOptions, that could be the option they pursue, but it would mean a very limited exchange program since I'm pretty sure the bulk of both MVC and VSE are the legacy weeks-based Enrolled DPs and StarOptions. I suspect DC Trust points and FlexOptions represent relatively small portions of the total inventory.

I'm not discounting your theory, but just pointing out that all of the rumors floating around are being based on statements from sales reps in sales presentations - so just consider the source.
 

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That is sound logic, just looking at Vistana in isolation. But we have had several TUGgers report that Marriott sales reps are telling Vistana owners that enrollment options WILL be offered to legacy Vistana weeks. So, I'm not sure why the Vistana reps should be trusted any more than the MVC reps. In my opinion, they both are probably just spinning the uncertainty as best they can to try to sell what they can. They still have to make a living, so they need to sell.



Correct that the DP system is a zero-sum game, but adding Vistana weeks to the DP would have no effect on the existing MVC resorts or DP allocations. If MVC decided to offer Vistana weeks DC enrollment so they could play in any cross-brand exchange, all they would have to do is assign each Vistana resort/unit size/view etc. a DP point value, just like they did for the legacy MVC weeks many years ago. They do the same thing when they add new resorts like the recently-added San Francisco Pulse - they assign each interval a DP value.

If they decide not to let legacy Vistana weeks play in any cross-brand exchange, then I agree with you that a FlexOptions to DP (and vice versa) exchange ratio would be a possibility, but then to be fair, they would have to also exclude legacy/enrolled MVC weeks and limit the cross-brand exchange to only DP Trust Points, not Enrolled/Elected points. So that scenario would mean DC Trust points could be converted to FlexOptions and FlexOptions to DC Trust points, but the weeks-based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange. Maybe if they were convinced that benefit would help them sell a lot more DC Trust points and FlexOptions, that could be the option they pursue, but it would mean a very limited exchange program since I'm pretty sure the bulk of both MVC and VSE are the legacy weeks-based Enrolled DPs and StarOptions. I suspect DC Trust points and FlexOptions represent relatively small portions of the total inventory.

I'm not discounting your theory, but just pointing out that all of the rumors floating around are being based on statements from sales reps in sales presentations - so just consider the source.

Just FYI - with the 3 MVCI updates I've attended this year, not one made any pitch whatsoever that my Vistana week would be subject to enrollment in the DP program. And, the Vistana update only offered to address my existing Vistana ownership and then the phantom options credit from my MVCI ownership to get me to a higher FlexOptions Star level. So, I've not experienced the same pitch that other owners have reported. I am not discounting that it happened, I've just not experienced it.

I'm not following your train of thought regarding enrolled MVCI weeks, when DPs are elected, from being excluded in any cross-brand exchange. I do not understand what you mean when you say "to be fair" that the weeks based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange.

No matter what, our discussion reflects that it is a complicated process.
 

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I'm not following your train of thought regarding enrolled MVCI weeks, when DPs are elected, from being excluded in any cross-brand exchange. I do not understand what you mean when you say "to be fair" that the weeks based inventory from both sides couldn't play in any cross-brand exchange.

It seemed you were saying that you didn’t believe that Vistana weeks would be able to be enrolled in the DC exchange and that only FlexOptions from the Vistana trust products would be allowed to exchange for DPs. So my feeling was if that happened they should exclude MVC weeks as well and just allow Trust points. Why let one side’s weeks play and not the other?
 
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I understand exactly what the term "enrollment" means - indeed, I own a MVCI week that is enrolled in the DP program (at no cost); and I also own weeks that are not enrolled. One of the reasons I believe that MVCI is not going to offer "enrollment" into DPs to original Vistana/Westin owners is because that is the pitch that Vistana is currently making to the owners via the FlexOptions program. It is not logical to have Vistana pitching to the pre-acquisition Vistana owners to join the FlexOptions program, if the long term plan is to offer "enrollment" via the MVCI DP system. While I'm not privy to the agreements between MVCI and ILG, there is still name brand separation that is of interest to MVW. And, recall, the DP system and the value of owned weeks when enrolled, was determined within the DP system. The bookings in the DP system are all designated points, those do not change. The value assigned to an enrolled week doesn't change. It is closed. Any point changes made to particular inventory of a DP resort is a zero sum game absent additional (new) inventory acquired. The Vistana properties do not have equivalent DP points, they have StarOptions. That is why, IMO, MVW is working on an exchange rate or a conversion rate that will allow DPs to be converted into FlexOptions and vice versa. An old Vistana property isn't going to be valued based upon DPs, it will be valued based upon FlexOptions.

Consider:

Pre Eligibility for Marriott's Destination Club:

- Marriott sold Weeks with home usage preference differentiated by resort/unit size/view type/seasonal calendars. Starwood-now-Vistana, the same.

- Eligible Marriott Weeks could be exchanged for Marriott-Rewards-now-Bonvoy Points. Eligible Vistana Weeks can be exchanged for SPG-StarPoints-now-Bonvoy Points.

- Marriott Weeks could be exchanged externally via II by virtue of an affiliation agreement between the two companies. Vistana Weeks, the same.

- Eligible Marriott Weeks in the Florida Club could be exchanged internally among the limited resorts participating in that program. Eligible Vistana Weeks in the Sheraton Flex club can be exchanged internally among the limited resorts participating in that program.

- Vistana has an internal exchange program with StarOptions as the currency with eligibility based on whether the purchase was direct or an external resale as well as whether "Mandatory" or "Voluntary" participation is dictated in the governing docs. Marriott did not offer a system-wide internal exchange program.

Post Marriott's Destination Club:

Owners of Marriott Weeks can choose to enroll their existing Weeks into the DC subject to eligibility rules, one-time Enrollment Fees and ongoing annual Club Dues fees. Enrollment does not mean a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points and it does not remove/erase any of the other usage options. Enrolled Weeks can be used exactly the same as previous and in addition can be elected on an annual basis for DC Exchange Points, the value based on the specific resort/unit size/view type/season designations of each interval. DC Points can be used in the DC Exchange Company for internal exchanges to any other inventory that's allowed by Marriott Vacations Worldwide to play in the DC sandbox, and for whatever other options are offered in the Destination Club, subject to availability and eligibility rules.

I'm just not seeing why Marriott can't offer DC eligibility to any non-Marriott branded timeshares, especially the ones that now come under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella, similar to how it is offered to owners of Marriott Weeks. "Keep everything you have and here, we'll give you something more. Wouldn't you like to expand your internal exchange options to everything else that comes under our umbrella?!"

Sure, it's unwieldy, it comes with a cost and for MVW it's a logistical nightmare that must take into consideration the ownership/usage that's legally granted in the original deeds. But they've managed to do it with Marriott Weeks such that thousands of people are happily seeing the value of using the DC to enhance their ownerships, and the DC Exchange Company appeared from the start to have been deliberately set up in a manner that would facilitate exchanges among non-Marriott-branded timeshares almost as easily. So, what are the legal barriers that I'm just not seeing that might prohibit allowing Vistana/Hyatt to play in the DC sandbox?

I'll say again, I'm not talking about a total integration of Marriott, Vistana and/or Hyatt companies that will end up with one product sold under one brand across the spectrum resulting in massive changes to what's already been sold and what will be sold in the future. I couldn't even begin to try to figure out something on that scale, which I doubt could legally happen anyway! No, all I'm talking about is opening up participation in the Destination Club to every existing ownership that now comes under the MVW umbrella, based on eligibility rules and subject to fees, on a basis similar to how it's been made available to existing Marriott Weeks owners. As simply as possible, it'd be an invitation to participate in an MVW-only internal exchange company, or, gain access to whatever other options are available to DC Members. Why not?
 
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I assume much of the unsold inventory is lower demand seasons , so I am not that intrigued by the cross usage. If any of the other systems like Westin or Hyatt added something new, then you have more of my attention , because there is a chance that 100% of those could be added to a land trust . I am also not incentivized to buy soon to avoid the price increases. For 25 years they have gone up on the Marriott side at a moderate pace that I can deal with . Remember , when you add the points , you start adding to your maintenance fees sooner , rather than later .
 

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I assume much of the unsold inventory is lower demand seasons , so I am not that intrigued by the cross usage. If any of the other systems like Westin or Hyatt added something new, then you have more of my attention , because there is a chance that 100% of those could be added to a land trust . I am also not incentivized to buy soon to avoid the price increases. For 25 years they have gone up on the Marriott side at a moderate pace that I can deal with . Remember , when you add the points , you start adding to your maintenance fees sooner , rather than later .

That's why Marriott developed the enrollment concept for legacy weeks and developed the DC Exchange company - to provide a vehicle for the previously-sold high demand weeks to play in the DC Points program. Without that, the DC would have just been the unsold inventory in June 2010, plus any new resorts, plus any ROFR/foreclosure reacquisitions. Adding the option for legacy weeks owners to play in the DC serves to increase the number of attractive bookings in the DC Points system. That's why I think if they want to offer quality options in any cross-usage program, they will have to find a way to get legacy Vistana weeks to play. If they just want to offer some sizzle for sales to sell, without any steak to back it up, then they could do something that is Trust only.
 
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