Mixed use resorts

[Teresa]

We recently stayed in a 2b/2b unit at Brigantine Beach Club in Brigantine, NJ. While there we found that some of the units in the resort are privately owned condos.

When I was checking out I asked the front desk clerk about it and he said that in the building we were in (building 2 of 2 buildings) there were 58 units that are timeshare units and the rest are privately owned. The other building was similar (I think that's what he said). He said the timeshare condos and the residential condos are pretty much the same - except for a few 3 bedroom units near the ocean end of the building and maybe a few one bedroom units. I asked if it was originally built (20 years ago) as condos or timeshares. He said that it was built as a timeshare resort but they had trouble selling so they auctioned off the remaining units for around $60K each. There was one unit in the local paper for sale over this Labor Day for $360K. I mentioned this to the clerk and he said that's come down from what they were going for about a year ago.

This set-up seemed to work well (while we were there at least). My husband said he would never want to actually live in a building with so much transient visitors coming and going. I wouldn't call it the Taj Mahal (that's over in Atlantic City about 7 minute away - grin). It had some design issues for a year-round residence (doors opening into the hallway). It was an acceptable place to hang out for our vacation (we spent most of our time in the casinos 'down the street'). There are two pools and a large beach down a path about 1/4 mile long (it's technically on the beach but there is 'marshland' between the buildings and the beach). There is an exercise room on property and a 'members lounge' which has wi-fi access. Two outdoor pools.

I've heard of mixed-use resort properties before but most of them were 'hotel/timeshare' which consist of a hotel operation (with hotel type rooms) plus additional timeshare units that are more 'condo-ish'.

I wonder if someone could buy 52 weeks of timeshare at this place and then 'convert' to whole ownership? (M/fs would be out-of-sight while you were stockpiling!). It would be a problem if the units are fixed for week and unit though. OR, conversely, I wonder if someone could buy a condo (residential) and then sell off weeks as timeshare. I'm sure that something like this has come up in the past for them. I'm guessing there are 'rules' about such a thing in their by-laws and docs.

I'm just wondering out loud. If anyone has any 'answers' to the above regarding this type of set-up or any thoughts on how this affects 'resales' on either the residential condos or timeshare weeks just chime in.

 

[PerryM]

All the kings men and all the kings horses....

The current week based timeshare is a very flawed model, but it seems to be dominant in the industry.

To get an idea just how flawed, while in Vegas in May we watched the little Jockey Club being walled off from the rest of Vegas by the City Center, the latest and greatest addition to “The Strip”. Land across the street sells for $40 M an acre and increasing. The rumor is that the big honchos who rule Vegas approached The Jockey Club but all the kings men and all the kings horses couldn’t put the Jockey Club back to whole ownership and thus be sold and the proceeds making all the owners extremely happy.

Once a timeshare is sliced and diced into 52 owners per condo it is no longer real estate – it’s a mutt that marches to a different drummer.

The correct model is like WorldMark where a master trust owns the units as fee simple property and could be sold if need be. Disney has the right idea – sell 40/50 year right to use timeshares and then start to sell 25 year additions until an asteroid wipes out central Florida.

 

[Steve]

Oh, the inconsistencies of Perry

The current week based timeshare is a very flawed model, but it seems to be dominant in the industry.

To get an idea just how flawed, while in Vegas in May we watched the little Jockey Club being walled off from the rest of Vegas by the City Center, the latest and greatest addition to “The Strip”. Land across the street sells for $40 M an acre and increasing. The rumor is that the big honchos who rule Vegas approached The Jockey Club but all the kings men and all the kings horses couldn’t put the Jockey Club back to whole ownership and thus be sold and the proceeds making all the owners extremely happy.

Once a timeshare is sliced and diced into 52 owners per condo it is no longer real estate – it’s a mutt that marches to a different drummer.

The correct model is like WorldMark where a master trust owns the units as fee simple property and could be sold if need be. Disney has the right idea – sell 40/50 year right to use timeshares and then start to sell 25 year additions until an asteroid wipes out central Florida.

This certainly isn't what you said when you purchased at the new Westgate Resort at Planet Hollywood in Vegas. In that case...which was only a few months ago...you positively gushed about the unlimited potential from your traditional weekly timeshare purchase.

Steve

 

[Fern Modena]

When the Jockey Club was walled off a couple (or more) concessions were made to owners. First, the Project City Center folks remodeled the lobby and placed the entrance on the other side of the building. Second, while they took all the parking away (there is mandatory valet right now), parking in a garage will be provided once the Cosmopolitan is completed. I'm not sure, but there was talk that their fitness area may also be available.

As for "whole ownership," there are many resorts which have both timeshares and whole ownership. Imperial Hawaii is one of them that immediately comes to mind. You can't convert a timeshare to whole ownership. Even though the timeshares and whole owners are in the same building, they have different HOA's and different maintenence fees due to differing expenses.

Fern

 

[johnmfaeth]

I know of a single "mixed use" resort - The Wyndham St. Thomas at Elysian Beach Resort. It is also known as the Cowpet Bay Condos, not to be confused wit Cowpet Bay East and Cowpet Bay West Condos.

It was built in 1984 by the same guy who built Bolongo Bay Resort and bought the old Limetree Beach Resort (rebuilt as Bluebeard's Beach Club in the 90's). He also bought Bluebeard's Castle.

In 1984, 93 of 160 hotel room style units had been sold as year round condos, Most in chunks of 2 & 3 to about 35 owners. They went for about $450K for a 3 room unit.

The developer (Kosmos) ran into financial trouble and sold the remaining 67 units to a company called Equivest which made them into the Elysian Beach Resort. In 2002, Wyndham (then called Fairfield - same bunch) bought out Equivest in it's entirity, they then had 17 (or so) properties including the Bluebeard's Castle and bluebeard's Beach Club. He kept Belongo Bay, the rest of it's pedigree is unknown to me.

Today, the Elysian is a timeshare within a condo. Wyndham is another condo association member. What's great is the condo association directly employs all the security and maintenance folks. So rather than a rent-a-cop at the entrance, you have someone dedicated to the resort whose worked there for years. The condo association also has three full time groundskeepers so the place looks like a botanical garden. The pool security guard knows all the timeshare owners (including me) by name. Raphael has been there for 4 years now and gladly watches your stuff while you run back to the room to make a new pitcher of "bug juice". It's like coming home to family.

The year round owners mostly live in the mid-atlantic and northeast and are down for the winter, the rest of the year, the place is mostly empty during the day. At night folks from other resorts and the nearby condos come to dine at the two great restaurants which lease space from the association.

Yes, I'm in love with it and have a bunch of units there. It's nice to know that no Wyndham bean counter can ever mess things up as they are just a minority owner. The year round owners are a bunch of wealthy retired business types and keep the place to high standards.

Its timeshare right to use leases but they expire in 2091, I will use every year, even if they just stand me in the corner of the Piano Bar at the main restaurant with a drink propped up in my hand

 

[johnmfaeth]

To answer the OP, even if your bought 52 weeks, they would be timeshares because they are under the control and covered by the timeshare condominium declaration. Similarly, to "breakup" a year round non-timeshare into weeks, you would have to file or have amended the original timeshare declaration to cover the unit.

The legal expense would probably outweigh the profit from a single unit when dividing. Also, I doubt the management company would ever agree to de-timeshare your 52 week collection and give up its management fees which average about 12% of the MF amount for the average timeshare.

 

[PerryM]

What?

This certainly isn't what you said when you purchased at the new Westgate Resort at Planet Hollywood in Vegas. In that case...which was only a few months ago...you positively gushed about the unlimited potential from your traditional weekly timeshare purchase.

Steve

Good grief, I'm not condemning the week based system, simply pointing out that if the original timeshares had taken the Right To Use approach we would NOT see the horrific disconnect between a whole ownership condo increasing in price with real estate values while traditional timeshares lagging way behind.

That's what this thread is about and not bashing Westgate again.

Good grief, do you see Westgate everywhere?

I own many week based timeshares - why did you pass up Marriott and focus on Westgate?

Is this thread going to be hijacked into yet another "I hate Westgate" like "I hate RCI"?


In Hawaii, many condo complexes are taken over one condo at a time and converted into timeshares. Destination Clubs are doing the same thing but they remain whole ownership and can be resold as normal real estate.

 

[Harry]

Once a timeshare is sliced and diced into 52 owners per condo it is no longer real estate – it’s a mutt that marches to a different drummer.
...

Good Perry, I like that. Unfortunately the law does not see it that way. That's not to say that as a practical matter you are not correct.

 

[PerryM]

... Once a timeshare is sliced and diced into 52 owners per condo it is no longer real estate – it’s a mutt that marches to a different drummer.
...

Good Perry, I like that. Unfortunately the law does not see it that way. That's not to say that as a practical matter you are not correct.

Well, lawyers do not rule the world yet - free markets do.

It's really easy to see the difference. Find a condo complex with two identical condos, take one and make it a timeshare and keep the other as a whole ownership condo. Buy 52 weeks in the one condo and buy the whole ownership. Check back in 20 years and see which has the greatest resale value - its the whole ownership one of course.

If the condo isn't sliced and diced 52 ways but a RTU with the last owners splitting the sale of the resort over a 1-2 year liquidation period the resale value of the timeshare will hold up much better than a traditional week based one.

Technically the condo is timeshare real estate but it does NOT act like the real estate we are used to - whole ownership.

Disney was smart and did this.

 

[Steve Barr]

We recently stayed in a 2b/2b unit at Brigantine Beach Club in Brigantine, NJ. While there we found that some of the units in the resort are privately owned condos.

I'm just wondering out loud. If anyone has any 'answers' to the above regarding this type of set-up or any thoughts on how this affects 'resales' on either the residential condos or timeshare weeks just chime in.

Hi Teresa,

One place we have owned for awhile with this model is A Place at the Beach in Atlantic Beach, NC. They have 1, 2 and 3 br. We own a fixed week 2 br ts. The whole ownership/condo units have risen greatly in price the past 5 years. We bought the ts at a good price 5-6 years ago and I'm sure that we would get all of our purchase price back, given the limited resales available. There does not seem to be much problem between the condo group and the ts group. The model seems to work fine there.

Been to the Sunglow in Daytona lately?

 

[Teresa]

Hi Steve,

Was at the Sunglow in May. To let others know, we own a 2/2 at the Sunglow - a year-round ownership; not a timeshare.

And, funny, now that you mention Sunglow, there is an owner who 'sorta timeshares out' his units there. He deposits weeks into an exchange club as if they were timeshares. He cannot break up the units and sell them as timeshares, but he is not breaking any rules of our condo association by doing what he does. I'm going to guess he only does this with 'dog' weeks as he wouldn't be getting any 'real' rent for them. It could be that the club gives him some money for them instead of giving him an exchange for them as I can't see how he can make any real money by doing this often.

Actually, DAE is set up to take whole-ownership condo deposits into their system. You just have to have certain 'amenities' available at your whole-ownership place (like a cleaning service, local contacts, etc.). So if you own a whole-ownership condo with the right 'amenities' then you can get a few exchanges through DAE for your 'dog' weeks if you plan right. Check with DAE for more details on how to do that. There may be other independents that do that too.

Hi Teresa,

One place we have owned for awhile with this model is A Place at the Beach in Atlantic Beach, NC. They have 1, 2 and 3 br. We own a fixed week 2 br ts. The whole ownership/condo units have risen greatly in price the past 5 years. We bought the ts at a good price 5-6 years ago and I'm sure that we would get all of our purchase price back, given the limited resales available. There does not seem to be much problem between the condo group and the ts group. The model seems to work fine there.

Been to the Sunglow in Daytona lately?