Looking for guidance re: reducing/exiting WorldMark timeshare

[TsRegret93]

Hi everyone,

My father-in-law (FIL) passed away last year, and I've been working with my mother-in-law (MIL) on settling the estate and managing to a sustainable moving-forward budget. Suffice it to say, my FIL many poor financial decisions during his final years, requiring my MIL to now make some significant lifestyle changes. Which led me to this website! My big question is, given my MIL's current situation, what is the best way for her to exit? While she's loosely interested in reducing her ownership, I think she's just fed up with Wyndham and ready to walk away.

My in laws have been WorldMark members since 1993. They've upgraded (i.e. re-contracted) multiple times throughout there ownership, most recently in 2019 when they took out a 10-year loan to increase their credits. Here's the status of her account today:

• 75K credits annually
• $528 per month for Maintenance Dues
• $6,100 is past due for Maintenance Dues
• $1,083 per month until 2029 to pay down a $60K+ loan at 12.5% interest that originated in 2019 (current payoff is $49K)

I spent 2 hours on the phone with my MIL and 5 different Wyndham customer service reps this morning. Here's what I heard:

1. Wyndham offers ways to "downgrade" ownership; however, while my MIL has an outstanding loan and/or is past due on maintenance dues, the only option they can provide is that she is eligible to surrender her ownership for no charge, once the loan and maintenance dues are paid in full (i.e. spend $55K and get nothing in return).
2. Wyndham suggested she could sell her ownership via a 3rd party. However, it was unclear whether she could sell part of her ownership. The 3rd parties provided include Fidelity Real Estate, Time Share Broker Associates, and TLS.

Given the $55K she owes Wyndham, my MIL has considered just walking away and hopefully negotiating down the debt once it goes thru collections. However, my understanding is that typical debt relief companies like Freedom Debt Relief down deal with TS.

I appreciate any insight you can share!

 

[bnoble]

Given the $55K she owes Wyndham, my MIL has considered just walking away and hopefully negotiating down the debt once it goes thru collections.

Walk, and pay absolutely nothing. Ignore the collections agency/agencies. She will take a ding on her credit (maybe) but that's probably not that important at this stage in her life.

 

[jasontugaccount]

If you want to sell part of the ownership, you would need to request a split. That split might take 6 months to get done. Then she would have 2 accounts and can sell one.
Look around at what people are paying. Check the marketplace here. Also you might want to look at https://www.wmowners.com/

75k credits is a lot and it will be hard to find the right buyer. Has she been using it? If not, you probably have 150,000 in unused credits sitting there. You should sell those credits. 7.5 cents per credit is a low price, but, it is probably a realistic amount to get rid of a lot of them. Maybe you can get 8 or even 9, but it will be hard to find a buyer.

The only possible way you are getting out of this without a collections fight or losing a lot of money is if the contract is very old and doesn't have housekeeping fees. 1991 or older if I recall correctly. Then MAYBE someone will pay what you owe.

I don't know what Freedom Debt Relief is, but, I wouldn't be working with any company like that for any reason, ever.

I have no idea how aggressive Wyndham collections is, but, $55k is enough for many companies to file a lawsuit and get a judgement.

 

[vacationtime1]

Walk, and pay absolutely nothing. Ignore the collections agency/agencies. She will take a ding on her credit (maybe) but that's probably not that important at this stage in her life.

Unfortunately, this is the best advice. If you are worried about a "sustainable moving-forward budget" for your MIL, a $55K timeshare loan cannot be part of the program.

Cut her losses and let those who put her in that untenable position (i.e. Wyndham sales dept) deal with it.

I don't know who or what Freedom Debt Relief is, but there are many, many scamsters who prey upon people like your MIL. Don't pay them. (Even the name of that company makes my skin crawl.)

 

[goaliedave]

You're in the same situation as a million others. Just walk away. Never answer collection phone calls, emails, or letters. If she's got assets they might seize, transfer them to your name.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Unfortunately I agree with @bnoble - the best option is to simply stop paying. Depending on the state your MIL lives in - and/or the state in which they made their purchase in 2019 - it may be worthwhile to consult with your state's AG (Attorney Generals) office about elder abuse if you feel on any level that Wyndham took unfair advantage of your FIL/MIL at that time. Might be worth at least a few phone calls as this type of predatory behavior aimed at seniors is not to be tolerated.

Lastly, none of the third party resale companies that Wyndham mentioned are likely to even attempt to sell any contract with a loan balance against it. I won't say it's impossible, but it's certainly improbable, hence why I think bnoble's recommendation is likely the best option. Chances are your MIL doesn't really need "good credit" at this point in her life anyways.

 

[CO skier]

Given the $55K she owes Wyndham, my MIL has considered just walking away and hopefully negotiating down the debt once it goes thru collections.

If you walk away paying nothing more, and the loan company cancels the $55k debt, your MIL will receive a 1099-C for the $55k that she must report as income. So, be prepared for that tax hit. There is no walking away from the IRS.

 

[jasontugaccount]

Even if you walk away. I would sell the credits in your account if you have access to them. Strip that thing empty and recoup some cost. I am not sure if you are locked out now though for non-payment.

 

[Patri]

Your MIL is smart.

 

[sue1947]

Go to WMowner Classified. WMowners is a forum like this one but just for Worldmark owners. The Classified section provides the best place to 'rent' your credits.
Selling credits = selling your account; i.e transferring it to another owner who will then pay the maintenance fees etc. Nobody will buy it with a $49K loan balance. Look at the Memberships for sale section and you will see what has been selling at what price.
Renting Credits, on the other hand, is transferring unused credits from one account to another. So in the Classified section, you want to look at the Credits to Rent out section. You can get 8-9 cents per credit depending on the expiration dates.
Jason's suggestion to rent out the credits before defaulting is a good one, except:
You have to be current in the dues before you can transfer anything. A 75K account has dues of $6343/year. Given the purchase/loan, I bet the account is Travelshare (a mostly worthless developer add on to try to convince people their highly inflated per credit cost is worth it over buying resale). If her maintenance fees are more than $6343, the excess is Travelshare dues. Those are optional and you can cancel out of those. The benefits are worthless in her situation. If you decide to bring the account current, fight to have them eliminate the travel share dues.
So the question is whether there are enough credits that can be rented out to make it worthwhile to bring the account current. She owes about a year's worth of dues and would need more than a year's worth of credits to make it, and the payment of another month's dues worth it. So call in and find out how many credits are available to use and how many are available to borrow. Each year, you get another 75000 credits on the anniversary date. Those credits are good for 2 years to the end of the month of that anniversary date. In addition, you can borrow from next years allotment. You can rent out the credits available, but not the ones available to borrow. Plus, you can only rent out 2 times your yearly allotment, so 150K in your case. So if the account hasn't been used, you could easily have 2 years worth of credits. On the website, you can check the status by going to My account (upper right hand corner), then credit summary. However, they 'upgraded' the website on June 12 and totally screwed things up. My credit summary hasn't been correct since and I know there are others who have the same issue; that's why I suggest calling in to get the info. Also find out the expiration dates of each batch of credits.

 

[TsRegret93]

Thank you all for the insight and advice - clear consensus for walking away. If she pays off her outstanding maintenance dues and rents out her points, does she need to keep her account in good standing through the time the renters use the credits?

 

[HudsHut]

No.
If she can get the credits transferred to another Owner's account, she is not dependent on whether or not they use them.

 

[Mongoose]

Hi everyone,

My father-in-law (FIL) passed away last year, and I've been working with my mother-in-law (MIL) on settling the estate and managing to a sustainable moving-forward budget. Suffice it to say, my FIL many poor financial decisions during his final years, requiring my MIL to now make some significant lifestyle changes. Which led me to this website! My big question is, given my MIL's current situation, what is the best way for her to exit? While she's loosely interested in reducing her ownership, I think she's just fed up with Wyndham and ready to walk away.

My in laws have been WorldMark members since 1993. They've upgraded (i.e. re-contracted) multiple times throughout there ownership, most recently in 2019 when they took out a 10-year loan to increase their credits. Here's the status of her account today:

• 75K credits annually
• $528 per month for Maintenance Dues
• $6,100 is past due for Maintenance Dues
• $1,083 per month until 2029 to pay down a $60K+ loan at 12.5% interest that originated in 2019 (current payoff is $49K)

I spent 2 hours on the phone with my MIL and 5 different Wyndham customer service reps this morning. Here's what I heard:

1. Wyndham offers ways to "downgrade" ownership; however, while my MIL has an outstanding loan and/or is past due on maintenance dues, the only option they can provide is that she is eligible to surrender her ownership for no charge, once the loan and maintenance dues are paid in full (i.e. spend $55K and get nothing in return).
2. Wyndham suggested she could sell her ownership via a 3rd party. However, it was unclear whether she could sell part of her ownership. The 3rd parties provided include Fidelity Real Estate, Time Share Broker Associates, and TLS.

Given the $55K she owes Wyndham, my MIL has considered just walking away and hopefully negotiating down the debt once it goes thru collections. However, my understanding is that typical debt relief companies like Freedom Debt Relief down deal with TS.

I appreciate any insight you can share!

Any chance she has a NHK account from the early 90’s?

 

[sue1947]

Any chance she has a NHK account from the early 90’s?

Very unlikely. The last ones were sold in '91. This one is '93.

 

[TsRegret93]

No.
If she can get the credits transferred to another Owner's account, she is not dependent on whether or not they use them.

Just to clarify, let's assume my MIL brings her account to good standing by end of month, and she rents all available credits by end of September. The renter books a stay for December, and my MIL stops paying all bills beginning October. I hear you saying the renter will be able to go forward with their December stay, even though my MIL's account is 3 months past due at the time of their stay. Is that correct?

 

[VacationForever]

You didn't say how many credits are available in the account. If it is only 75K, the money that you can get by renting out the points may barely cover what is owed. Not worth the hassle. Just walk away from it. Points rent at about 8 cents a point. If it is 150K plus 75K available to borrow, then it is worthwhile to bring maintenance up to date and then rent the points out before walking away. You have the numbers, just check it. If it is too much of a hassle to rent out, then just walk away from the whole thing.

 

[TsRegret93]

You didn't say how many credits are available in the account. If it is only 75K, the money that you can get by renting out the points may barely cover what is owed. Not worth the hassle. Just walk away from it. Points rent about 8 cents a point. If it is 150K plus 75K available to borrow, then it is worthwhile to bring maintenance up to date and then rent the points out before walking away. You have the numbers, just check it. If it is too much of a hassle to rent out, then just walk away from the whole thing.

122K in the account now, 48K available to borrow

 

[VacationForever]

122K in the account now, 48K available to borrow

What is the anniversary month?

 

[HudsHut]

Just to clarify, let's assume my MIL brings her account to good standing by end of month, and she rents all available credits by end of September. The renter books a stay for December, and my MIL stops paying all bills beginning October. I hear you saying the renter will be able to go forward with their December stay, even though my MIL's account is 3 months past due at the time of their stay. Is that correct?

If she is allowed to rent out the credits, (account has to be in good standing) once they are in another Owner's account, there is no tie back to her. The new Owner can use them up to 13 months past their expiration date, as long as new Owner's account is up to date on Maintenance fees.

No effect on your Mother In Law.

 

[TsRegret93]

What is the anniversary month?

September

 

[Mongoose]

122K in the account now, 48K available to borrow

With that many credits and so little time you would want to discount to $0.065-0.07 to get rid of them. How many expire this September?

 

[Mongoose]

With that many credits and so little time you would want to discount to $0.065-0.07 to get rid of them. How many expire this September?

You can post for free on WMOwners.com. I have rented my credits there 3 times.

 

[HudsHut]

September means that the credits received on Sept 1, 2021 will be expiring on Sept 30, 2023!! You need to get a move on if you're planning to rent those out. Then there should be the 2022 allotment which expired 9/30/2024. And the brand new ones which arrive on 9/1/2023 will expire 9/30/2025.
---
Something doesn't make sense above. If it is a 75K account, there should be 75K to borrow. Are there any reservations?

Be sure to call WorldMark to see whether the credits which are showing on her account are accurate.

 

[sue1947]

Be sure to call WorldMark to see whether the credits which are showing on her account are accurate.

This. As I said earlier, the new computer system is listing the credits incorrectly on some accounts. Call in and find out exactly how much is where. In addition, ask about the definition of year when renting. I haven't tested the limits but I believe the year (as in you can only rent out 2 x your account per year) is based on your anniversary date. If you rent out some in August before the end of the month, can you then rent out 150000 credits starting Sept 1 when your new credits come in?

Assuming you have a 75K account, you probably have 47000 credits that expire Sept 30 2023. These would need to be rented ASAP and at a discount.
The rest currently in the account is likely 75000 expiring Sept 20 2024. These can be rented at 8 or so per credit.
On Sept 1, you will get another 75000 expiring Sept 30, 2025 and can rent them at a little higher.
If the year resets at Sept 1, rent them all. If not, ignore the ones expiring this year and rent out the 2024 and 2025 credits.
You will have to be current and pay the Sept dues and then default.

 

[HudsHut]

Very good point, @sue1947
The year is the anniversary year for renting credits. So as soon as Sept 1 arrives, the account will be able to rent out as much as 150,000 credits (2 x 75K).

Ideally, transfer out the ones about to expire at fire sale prices so they're gone by 8/31.