Is WYN trying to "sour" the resale market?

[GT1]

Heard from a Rep. at Old Town Alexandria that WYN has lawyers looking into resale contracts to make them only usable at the places where they are deeded since the contract for points was made with the original owner and not the resale purchaser. Anyone heard about this?

 

[Rent_Share]

Were his lips moving ?

 

[ronparise]

It's a sales pitch designed to convince you to trade in your deeded property and buy more CWA

If you knew how the points system was constructed you would know its BS. The deed has been pledged to a trust and points issued in exchange. The trust is written to allow all points to be used at all the resorts

 

[massvacationer]

Heard from a Rep. at Old Town Alexandria that WYN has lawyers looking into resale contracts to make them only usable at the places where they are deeded since the contract for points was made with the original owner and not the resale purchaser. Anyone heard about this?

That would break the whole system as it would remove a significant chunk of inventory from availability.....that's an old sales line of BS that had been used for years

 

[lcml11]

Heard from a Rep. at Old Town Alexandria that WYN has lawyers looking into resale contracts to make them only usable at the places where they are deeded since the contract for points was made with the original owner and not the resale purchaser. Anyone heard about this?

Check the orginal contract and deed. The orginal contract should be available from Wyndham and the deed from the court house. Not all contracts may be the same over time.

 

[tug1873]

Think about what he is saying. if my resale week's can not be used then it will nit be available for developer buyers either. The whole system would collapse.

We own deeds at those resorts last time I looked real estate deeds mean ownership just like you house. If they want you week they need your permission to use it.

 

[55plus]

Liars, liars, liars. I'm going to have to give the sales weasels credit for being creative when it comes to the lies they come up with...

Do what I do, go to the presentations, ignore everything they say, call them out on the lies and collect the AMX card afterwards, and have dinner on them with it.

 

[pacodemountainside]

First heard this lie over 12 years ago.

Stay away from sales weasels as they can and will be hazzardous to your financial health!

This is why VIP is essentially worthless, it can be changed or eliminated at will.

 

[timeos2]

Incredibly Wyndham has been doing everything they could to degrade the resale market for their products for over a decade. It's because they know there's no real difference between resales & retail so all they have available is to talk down resales & push the worthless VIP nonsense. And it seems to have worked as points are available for little or nothing eve as they rake new suckers for tens of thousands for the same exact product!

Testament to how gullible the public is that they have continued to fall for the pitch after all this time.

 

[GT1]

It's a sales pitch designed to convince you to trade in your deeded property and buy more CWA

If you knew how the points system was constructed you would know its BS. The deed has been pledged to a trust and points issued in exchange. The trust is written to allow all points to be used at all the resorts

The only thing different in this twist of the old lie (which, yes, I have heard before) is the idea that the contract for exchanging with others was not a part of the actual deed itself. That I had not made the deal with WYN to exchange points. My contract is for deeds at Glade/Kingsgate not Bonnet Creek so he was telling me that I would only be able to exchange there.

I understand the legality of my deed - it is a "piece" of a real estate pie. How does the deed "pledged toa trust" work legally? Is that in any paperwork as a guarantee somehow?

 

[pacodemountainside]

The only thing different in this twist of the old lie (which, yes, I have heard before) is the idea that the contract for exchanging with others was not a part of the actual deed itself. That I had not made the deal with WYN to exchange points. My contract is for deeds at Glade/Kingsgate not Bonnet Creek so he was telling me that I would only be able to exchange there.

I understand the legality of my deed - it is a "piece" of a real estate pie. How does the deed "pledged to a trust" work legally? Is that in any paperwork as a guarantee somehow?

Go to this link and read Trust Agreement!

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=1608&t=10935

Also, as I recall there is a section in purchase contract covering this.

 

[Bourne]

Next time you hear that, let him/her know that you figured out a way of becoming a VIP via resale.

 

[GT1]

Go to this link and read Trust Agreement!

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=1608&t=10935

Also, as I recall there is a section in purchase contract covering this.

Well, that was an interesting read. As a non-lawyer that all seemed like another language so this is just my impression.

It seems that the "use rights" cannot be divided from the "property rights" so in my simple reading I would say that once my transfer fee was accepted then I was issued a membership in the Trust and as such I entered into an agreement guaranteeing my points into the system, not just my HOA/POA. Is that the right way of reading this?
For those interested here is the section in the Trust Document about resales ...


ARTICLE XII
OTHER RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF MEMBERS
12.01 Sale or Transfer. A Member may sell or otherwise transfer his Property Interest and Points provided such Member gives notice to the Trustee at the address specified herein and provided further that the Points allocated to a Property Interest (or the Use Rights therein) may not be sold separate from such Property Interest. A Member may not transfer his Property Interest nor permit others to use the Points associated therewith unless such Member is current in the payment of his FairShare Plus Assessment. The transfer of a Property Interest and the Points associated therewith may not result in a Member owning less than the minimum number of Points needed to reserve one week in an Accommodation. A Member desiring to transfer his Property Interest must also obtain the written consent of Wyndham, which consent may be withheld if the Member is delinquent in the payment of any obligations then due Wyndham under his Purchase Agreement, or under a mortgage, deed of trust or other security instrument encumbering his Property Interest, or if the terms and conditions of the Member’s Assignment Agreement prohibit the sale, conveyance or transfer of the Membership to persons other than Wyndham. Wyndham and/or the Plan Manager has the right, in its discretion, to charge the purchaser a reasonable transfer fee for documenting the transfer of a Property Interest and the appurtenant Points.

 

[Joe33426]

Well, that was an interesting read. As a non-lawyer that all seemed like another language so this is just my impression.

It seems that the "use rights" cannot be divided from the "property rights" so in my simple reading I would say that once my transfer fee was accepted then I was issued a membership in the Trust and as such I entered into an agreement guaranteeing my points into the system, not just my HOA/POA. Is that the right way of reading this?

Can't the WYN lawyers just change the trust? Not that I'm saying that's what they are going to do, but just saying.

The whole thing sounds like a scare tactic so that owners will buy directly from the Developer.

I also agree with other posts that say that if WYN did this that the entire system would likely collapse. I've bought a lot of points at resorts that I would unlikely use on a regular basis if I were restricted to using only those resorts. I'd likely create my own Viking Ship and send the interests down the river....

 

[AwayWeGo]

That's About The Size Of It.

The whole thing sounds like a scare tactic so that owners will buy directly from the Developer.

You are correct, sir.

Timeshare sellers' No. 1 paralyzing fear is that people will find out about timeshare resales.

Timeshare sellers' No. 1. preoccupation is coming up with various ways of combating timeshare resales -- club systems & ROFR & VIP & I don't know what-all.

Never mind that by dissing & devaluing resales the timeshare sellers undermine part of their own sales spiel, the part that says a timeshare is deeded real estate that you can rent out or bequeath to your heirs or sell.

That's why some timeshare companies are backing away from selling timeshare intervals outright, moving instead to selling club memberships & trust-based points-style reservation systems -- timeshare variations with key features that do not transfer to new owners upon resale.

After getting the old high-pressure hard-sell 1 time from a timeshare seller with SunTerra (now Diamond Resorts International), I remarked that their non-transferrable club-points system sounded like it was dreamed up as a way of pushing back against timeshare resales.

The timeshare seller said, "That's about the size of it." (Or words to that effect.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[timeos2]

Can't the WYN lawyers just change the trust? Not that I'm saying that's what they are going to do, but just saying.

The whole thing sounds like a scare tactic so that owners will buy directly from the Developer.

I also agree with other posts that say that if WYN did this that the entire system would likely collapse. I've bought a lot of points at resorts that I would unlikely use on a regular basis if I were restricted to using only those resorts. I'd likely create my own Viking Ship and send the interests down the river....

No, they cannot retroactively change the Trust as that was sold as real estate under sales disclosure - that 400+ page book you may have seen at closing. The terms that created that sale and deed cannot be altered. Thats why they have to set up a new Trust - such as CWA - to make any changes even for new sales. Those tens of thousands that were already sold under the original trust are in forever and cannot be altered evn as they are resold. It must be very frustrating for the lawyers as well as the sales weasels to realize they have to create false tales to try to sell product that is easily obtainable resale for a few pennies. They have been far more effective at tainting the resale points than I would have expected but I guess buyers really are that uninformed. Anyone who takes even a cursory look at resale vs retail points has to realize that retail - even with the bogus VIP nonsense - is never ever a good deal. Yet somehow retail sales go on. Never underestimate the gullibility of the public.

 

[PassionForTravel]

I think it's more than gullibility it's a combo of things. Most people who go into a TS presentation don't go there with the expectation of buying, then the salesmen spins a dream scenario when they are already in a vacation stupor. Added to that most people don't know about the resale market. Even the ones who have heard something about the resale market don't think it applies to whatever TS they are talking about.

How it's easy to get trapped into that mindset I remember a couple of Worldmark "Owner Updates" my GF and I attended. Sh has owned WM for about 8 years and bought from the developer. At one update the sales guy blatantly asked us if we had checked out the resale market, we said no, and he proceeded to spin a tale of how our credits were worth even more on the resale market that what he was offering. We didn't buy and even then I didn't research the resale market and I thought promptly forgot about the conversation until much later.

Then last summer we were in another update and she was spinning her tale and had us convinced that we should buy more, I knew that we had until checkout to buy so we turned it down. Over the next 24 hours we were mulling over and I almost went back in to buy. I happened to google Worldmark resale and the blinders were removed from my eyes and I saw clearly. Now I know the first guy was lying through his teeth. But I also realize how close I came to falling for it twice and I'm someone who doesn't make rash purchasing decisions and know alot about the travel industry. It's easy for me to understand how people fall for it.

Ian

 

[55plus]

We pretty much own where we want/need APR. The resort where we own are usually our travel destination. If Wyndham were to try to screw the owners we wouldn't be impacted that much except when we snowbird. If something like what is being discussed did happen I expect there would be many lawsuits - maybe even a class action.

 

[PearlCity]

This is a rumor created to instill fear. It comes up a lot with DVC and HGVC as well but doing so would ruin their system.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jnboy9111]

After reviewing the trust agreement I noticed something that hasn't been mentioned about the trust in Article V which I pasted below. The trust and trust agreement has a set termination date of 12/31/2025. There is the ability to be extended but who knows if that will happen and if not it looks like all the converted weeks go back to fixed weeks the way I read it. I'm not a lawyer but that's what it looks like to me.

ARTICLE V
TERMINATION OF THE TRUST, WITHDRAWALS,
ADDITIONS, SUBSTITUTIONS, AND TERMINATION OF POINTS
5.01 Termination. Unless terminated in accordance with the terms hereof or not extended as provided for in Section 14.09 below, the Trust and this Trust Agreement shall terminate on December 31, 2025. Upon any termination of the Trust, the Association shall be dissolved and the following shall occur::
(a) The Trustee shall cause all Use Rights to be reconveyed to the assigning Member or his successors or assigns, if such Use Rights were assigned to the Trust after the Member acquired the corresponding Property Interest;
(b) The Trustee shall take all steps necessary to release from the encumbrance of this Trust Agreement all Property Interests whose Use Rights were subjected to this Trust Agreement by Wyndham prior to being sold by Wyndham;

John Turner

 

[Rent_Share]

"or not extended as provided for in Section 14.09 below"

Could not find Section 14.09 9 in the link,

but I am sure it's an auto renewal clause baring a supermajority in objection

 

[Vacationfuntips]

Trust Information and Amendments posted on Wyndham Vacation Resorts website ...

More information can be obtained directly from the Wyndham Vacation Resorts website. Once logged in - go to the Online Learning Center. Then look for information regarding Club Wyndham Plus. There is information posted online for all to view regarding the vacation plan trust and amendments.

Use this link to review:

https://www.wyndhamvacationresorts.com/ffr/member/help/learningCenter/details.do?id=LIB-0002076


Topics covered:

1.) FairShare Vacation Plan Trust
2.) Financial Statements and Independent Auditors' Report
3.) Second Amended and Restated FairShare Vacation Plan Use Management Trust Agreement.
4.) First Amendment to the Second Amended and Restated FairShare Vacation Plan Use Management Trust Agreement.
5.) Second Amendment to the Second Amended and Restated FairShare Vacation Plan Use Management Trust Agreement.
6.) Second Amended and Restated By-Laws of FairShare Vacation Owners Association.

- Happy Reading to All -

Cynthia T.

 

[richjester]

I got the same line at Alexandria over Thanksgiving. Because I had seen this thread, I immediately recognized the sales "technique." I've been lied to at other presentations, so I was not surprised at all. I have met with a few Wyndham sales folks who were educational and truthful.