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If you had to start today, how would you do it? + Survey

YuzuYou

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If you were a young family in my shoes starting out today, how would you approach TS?

I was an early-ish adopter of airBnB (so maybe 12+ years now) and used them exclusively over many years. However, as my family has grown and the level of inconsistency from places and demands from hosts has increased, I've been booking hotels more and more (yeah hosts having me clean the house/beds are the last straw). Especially having something like a pool or playground is pretty critical for our travel needs at this stage. So if I'm already spending the money I thought maybe a timeshare might make sense if we can rent it out for a net positive when we're not using it.


1) Is there a vacation destination you wish to visit most of the time or on a regular basis? if so where?

In general for vacationing we are somewhat flexible. We are a military family and move around a lot so we need some flexibility for the next 6-10 years. Our timeshare usage would fall into a few categories;
  1. "staycations" a few hours from where we are likely to be stationed. Most likely places are Hawaii, California, and the Southeast
  2. trips to get together with extended family which is likely to be the Southeast (sleeping 8+, or 2 units in the same building) and the North Shore of MA (sleeping 6)
  3. if a place exists very near where we live, getting one for putting up extended family that comes to visit (sleeping 2-4)
2) Do you want to visit your home resort at least half the time, or do you want to trade more than half the time?

Probably trade more than half the time. We need flexibility because of moving frequently.

3) What are your 5 top trade destinations?

Hawaii (current residence), Panama City (to visit family), Atlanta (to visit family) or a compromise to ATL would be a Hilton Head/Outer Banks or somewhere in the TN mountains. We would consider outlaying some cash for something in the North Shore but those seem non-existent.

4) How many people do you usually travel with - total, including yourself?

Our immediate family is 6 but my Dad vacations with us frequently so probably 7.

5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule?

school schedule

6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance?

"yes". Subject to change if my husband has to go TDY. I could still go without him if there wasn't a way to cancel, but it would be inconvenient.

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time?

yes, about once a year and sometimes twice a year, but most of our trips tend to be 4-5 days

8) What level of accommodations do you prefer on a scale of 1 to 5 stars?
3-4. Would prefer a place with a year round or indoor pool to keep kids entertained.

9) How much can you afford to spend upfront, without financing?

Looking strictly to pick up a free (or very low) timeshare someone would rather be rid of. The only one we might purchase is if one existed on the North Shore (up to 15k).

10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year?

Up to $1500. Could increase the amount if it's clear we're saving money this way.

11) Are you a detail oriented planner?

yes

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do?

To be honest, I don't fully grasp why they are notorious to get out of. Can someone point me to a thread or article that talks about exit strategies? For those of you who already own, how do you plan to divest? This is a big reason why I'm only looking to pick up a "free" timeshare right now.

13) Other

I'm very interested in learning things like points arbitrage and how to maximize that. It seems like there are a lot of systems/points to learn and I don't know where to start. Additionally, if anyone has advice or experience on renting their weeks for profit, I'm interested in that as well.
 

geist1223

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Worldmark 97,000 Credits
DRI Cabo Azul 50,500
Royal Solaris San Jose del Cabo
Check out a couple Point/Credit Systems like Wyndham or Worldmark. You can buy on the Secondary/Resell Market at substantial savings.
 

bnoble

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I agree that a mini-system is a good way to start, particularly because you are thinking of less-than-a-week stays. Wyndham and WorldMark are both in your budget, though they may not stretch as far as a very inexpensive airbnb.

You probably want something that is close to but not quite free, instead of free. There's a reason a timeshare is free, and if/when the time comes for you to pass along a free, it may be hard to do. WorldMark consistently has some sort of resale market, because all credits are equal, so it should not be hard to pass along if/when you no longer want it. Wyndham is much more variable, primarily because the ongoing maintenance costs per point can vary widely. A good rule of thumb is to have something at or below the cost of the "blended trust" product called Club Wyndham Access. The lower the annual costs per point, the higher the purchase price. Deeds with annual costs more than trivially above CWA are harder to get rid of, and some are genuine albatrosses.

Take a look at the two directories to see what the credit/point costs might be in each system, and an overview for how each system works. Focus only on the in-system resorts in each system, and ignore Club Pass and Affiliate/Associate resorts. You can't book the former as a resale owner, and the latter are generally not available.

WorldMark: Directory and Directory Supplement
Wyndham: Directory and Directory Supplement (For some reason, I can't load the Wyndham ones right now, but those links should work)

There is also BlueGreen, but IMO there isn't much that it offers that is compelling vs. WorldMark and Wyndham. There are fewer resorts, they are either in the same places but not demonstrably nicer, or in places that are probably less desirable in general. There may be an exception if a handful of those resorts are perfect fits for you. For example, we really like the resort in Boyne, Michigan, because it is a very easy drive for us, but there isn't a huge reason for most people to go there. Worth taking a look just to see.

The other major points players are Hilton, Hyatt, and Marriott, but those are likely outside the budget/quality level you are thinking about. Disney is a specialist that doesn't match what you are looking for at all, and is also very expensive.

Finally, if you really want to spend time making this a serious hobby, RCI Points could work for you, but I don't think that's a great "first purchase" because I think it probably has a steeper learning curve.
 

x3 skier

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CO skier

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10) How much can you afford to spend every year for a maintenance fee that will come due right after Christmas, and increase each year?

Up to $1500. Could increase the amount if it's clear we're saving money this way.
$1,500/year maintenance fees would get you 15,000 credits in WorldMark or 200,000-ish points in Wyndham, which is enough for a 2 bedroom in most of their resorts. Fess can be paid monthly, avoiding a big hit to the budget at the beginning of the year. If you travel with 7, you will need to increase the amount to reserve a 3 bedroom, or 2 units at a time.

Here are a couple of completed eBay auctions as examples of what would work for you:



3) What are your 5 top trade destinations?

Hawaii (current residence), Panama City (to visit family), Atlanta (to visit family) or a compromise to ATL would be a Hilton Head/Outer Banks or somewhere in the TN mountains. We would consider outlaying some cash for something in the North Shore but those seem non-existent.
Club Wyndham has resorts in all these locations, and nearby, and has a much stronger presence in the Southeast USA than WorldMark. The nice thing about points systems is that there is no exchange fee to use points at the different resorts in the system.

5) Can you travel any time, or are you locked into the school schedule?

school schedule

6) Can you make firm plans 12 or more mos. in advance?

"yes". Subject to change if my husband has to go TDY. I could still go without him if there wasn't a way to cancel, but it would be inconvenient.

7) Can you vacation for a full week at a time?

yes, about once a year and sometimes twice a year, but most of our trips tend to be 4-5 days
Points systems offer the flexibility you need. A Club Wyndham Access ownership gives you Advance Reservation Priority at 80-something resorts for a popular resort during school breaks. Maintenance fees are slightly higher than average, but probably worth it in your case. When plans change, cancel and book somewhere else; there is still some good availability 6-8 months in advance for school breaks.

There is this chart that compares points-based systems. The maintenance fees are somewhat out of date, so take a look at eBay auctions to get an idea of current maintenance fees.


There is a learning curve to properly using a points-based timeshare, just take it a little at a time. That will require some effort on your part, but much easier than cleaning an Airbnb after vacation.

Both Club Wyndham and WorldMark have exit programs that make it fairly simple to exit their programs when the timeshare no longer works for you.

I have not rented vacation accommodations in over 15 years thanks to my timeshare ownership. Zero regrets.
 
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rickandcindy23

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Wyndham Founder; Disney OKW & SSR; Marriott's Willow Ridge and Shadow Ridge,Grand Chateau; Val Chatelle; Hono Koa OF (3); SBR(LOTS), SDO a few; Grand Palms(selling); WKORV-OF ,Westin Desert Willow.
If starting out fresh, nothing owned at all, I would advise anyone to buy Marriott or Sheraton for using and for trading.

I love my Marriott weeks for trading. We bought resale platinum and never paid more than $4,000 for any week, and I can lock them into two sides for $90.

I love my Sheraton Broadway Resort (Myrtle Beach) float summer weeks for trading as well, and we also stay at the resort, but we also rent some of our weeks (and we own a lot of those 2 beds and 2 bedroom lockoffs.

I also have great trading power with Sheraton Desert Oasis, but only buy the 2 bed lockoffs. They are tough to find. The one bedrooms when put together have much higher maintenance fees than the entire 2 bedroom lockoff. No extra fee to lock those off. You can rent SDO as well, as long as you book winter season weeks at 12 months out.

Those would be all I would buy today because Disney is way too expensive, even resale right now, but I love those points. We enjoy 500 points that we bought for the lowest prices years ago.

WorldMark is an okay system, and I use it for places that are very hard to get for our own vacations like Disneyland (Dolphin's Cove is great), Yellowstone (still far from the entrance) and Estes Park and places in the NW. They are pretty weak in availability in the SE.

Not a big fan of anything that trades strictly with RCI. RCI week-to-week exchange is $289. That is crazy. Marriott-Marriott, Sheraton/Westin-Sheraton/ Westin, Sheraton/ Westin to Marriott (and vice versa) $164 exchange fee and better exchanges. Love II.

I am divesting of most everything else that we own. We do own Wyndham and have great benefits with Wyndham as a developer purchase, but I would not buy resale (or even take it for free).

The best way to own Wyndham and get status is to buy weeks that haven't been yet converted to Wyndham and see if you can do it with a small purchase. That door may actually be closed at this time, but maybe in the future they will need sales and will offer some bargains like they did for us in 2007. The Princeville properties, Bali Hai, Ka'eo'kai and Shearwater are just a few example of weeks that Wyndham wanted in their system and converted cheaply.

I know Wyndham takes over properties and wants to get deeded week owners into the sytem, but I haven't heard of one of the newest ones they acquired being a candidate for a cheap conversion, and that would be Grand Palms in MB. Maybe at some point they will offer a great deal to owners.
 

alwysonvac

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SOLD (DVC, FSRC)
If you were a young family in my shoes starting out today, how would you approach TS?
Consider renting timeshares.
Just like a hotel, you'll want to do a little research to determine which resort(s) will be best for you and your family in terms of quality, amenities, location, etc.

Owning a timeshare doesn't necessarily save you money. You actually might end up spending more than you would on a hotel room but in exchange you're gaining more space (fully furnish apartments instead of a small hotel room).

12) Do you understand that once you buy a timeshare, it may be very difficult to sell or give away, and you are responsible for all fees, until you do?

To be honest, I don't fully grasp why they are notorious to get out of. Can someone point me to a thread or article that talks about exit strategies? For those of you who already own, how do you plan to divest? This is a big reason why I'm only looking to pick up a "free" timeshare right now.
Picking up a free timeshare is easy but getting rid of one can be extremely hard especially if there is little to no demand.
With timeshares, there are a lot more sellers than buyers (more supply than actual demand). Just take a look at ebay or redweek to see all of free giveaways.
Some timeshares are cheaper to rent than to own.


13) Other

I'm very interested in learning things like points arbitrage and how to maximize that. It seems like there are a lot of systems/points to learn and I don't know where to start. Additionally, if anyone has advice or experience on renting their weeks for profit, I'm interested in that as well.
Renting isn't as easy as well especially when you have lots of owners competing against each other to get a renter.
NOTE: Some timeshares prohibit and/or place restrictions on renting.
 

rjwehr

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Mountainside @Granby Ranch,
Landmark Holiday Beach-PCB,
Inverness @ New Braunfels
We were in a similar situation. Almost 20 years ago, we had 3 young kids and picked up a summer-fixed week, 2 bedroom unit that is right on the beach in Panama City Beach. There is always plenty for the kids to do; even now that they are in college. We traded through RCI for a little while but the annual maintenance + RCI membership fee + exchange fee made it cheaper just to rent on the market than to trade if we want to go somewhere different. We later picked up a 2 bedroom ski condo. We go to the beach every year and skiing every other year. When we can't go, we rent them out. (The kids treat our condos like they are a second home since we always get the same units.) Fixed weeks work for us. We like the assurance that we always get a week at the beach in June and skiing in March. I will say the keys to a fixed-week condo is location, unit size, and time of year.

With that said, a points system may work better for you if you are unsure about where you will be stationed... but I don't know if I would rule out a good fixed-week condo. :)

Good luck on your search.
 
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dannybaker

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My advice is to read every tug thread you can read. This group has saved our family thousands of dollars and given us all some amazing vacations. Along the way we have made lifelong friends who are willing to help you.
 

CalGalTraveler

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You are already ahead of the game by considering resale vs. developer and by researching your purchase. Consider timeshares that have both a week and points. Vistana mandatory deeds, Hilton grand vacation Vegas all are attached to points systems for shorter stays. Worldmark might work as well but you will have to check that forum because we don't own there. You can borrow points from future years when you travel. It depends where you want to travel and the quality of resort.

Read TUG and try renting first to see what systems you like.

The free timeshares are worth just that. You get what you pay for and you may have difficulty exiting. This makes free timeshares more risky than a timeshare that has resale value because there is demand for the timeshares that can be sold. Many things in timeshare systems are the opposite logic. Cheapest, smallest is not always best.

If you want to rent it out when you don't use and have fantastic trades, typically you need a timeshare that has resale value. Those cost money of course. But they don't cost much. Many deeds can be purchased for under $10k resale so the risk is low.

Week deeds are better value than trust points and the annual maintenance fees are less.

My only regret in timeshares is that we purchased our first deed developer and paid too much. However we have maximized that deed. It is an excellent system and we augmented the value with buying resales and now love our timeshares. We are saving thousands on travel.
 
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5finny

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Consider a Marriott trader
Cheapest is usually Willow Ridge but I would give top consideration to an ownership you might actually use
If you start looking at ebay just check out the seller to make sure he/it is not a scammer
Some tug searches will help with that
Traditionally best time to buy is towards end of year when maintenance fees are due


I thank the member of your family who is in service for their service
I thank the rest of the family for the sacrifices made
 

TheHolleys87

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We would never buy Shell and would try to take over my parents' Marriotts when my dad divested himself of them (Marriott made him an offer when they were creating their trust).
 

YuzuYou

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I agree that on paper it looks like Wyndham is a good fit, but I'm concerned about the inability to rent out my week should we be unable to use it. Is there a list of timeshare systems I can look at which permit owners to rent out their weeks hassle-free? Thank you everyone for your responses. I've looked and them all and have had to spend an equal amount of time trying to learn the TS vocabulary and dig around the forums a little more, haha.

Disney is a specialist that doesn't match what you are looking for at all, and is also very expensive.

Finally, if you really want to spend time making this a serious hobby, RCI Points could work for you, but I don't think that's a great "first purchase" because I think it probably has a steeper learning curve.
Ironically, I got started on this path because I was interested in purchasing Aulani! But the sticker shock got to me :p. As for RCI I can see myself getting into this as a serious hobby because I enjoy getting a good deal, but I will keep the learning curve in mind. Also, it seems like many on the board prefer II so I'll look into that as well.

With that said, a points system may work better for you if you are unsure about where you will be stationed... but I don't know if I would rule out a good fixed-week condo. :)
Thank you! Yes exactly. Not ruling out a fixed-week but we need the flexibility of converting a deposited week or renting because about every 3 years there will be a period where we aren't sure where we will be 12 months from then.

Owning a timeshare doesn't necessarily save you money. You actually might end up spending more than you would on a hotel room but in exchange you're gaining more space (fully furnish apartments instead of a small hotel room).
I see what you're saying, but we have already sized out of hotel rooms and need to book something with a kitchen/washer dryer anyway when vacationing so I figured a TS would be at least some cost savings if we picked it up resale.

If you want to rent it out when you don't use and have fantastic trades, typically you need a timeshare that has resale value. Those cost money of course. But they don't cost much. Many deeds can be purchased for under $10k resale so the risk is low.
So what you're saying is free or low cost timeshares almost never trade/rent well? How do I determine the trading power of a property I'm considering?

Consider a Marriott trader
Cheapest is usually Willow Ridge but I would give top consideration to an ownership you might actually use
If you start looking at ebay just check out the seller to make sure he/it is not a scammer
Some tug searches will help with that
Traditionally best time to buy is towards end of year when maintenance fees are due
Marriott was not on my radar but I think I will take your advice and look into it more because I have concerns about Wyndham after what I've read on the forums. Thanks for the tip on when to buy!
 

bnoble

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I'm concerned about the inability to rent out my week should we be unable to use it.
The reason to buy a timeshare* is to force you to take vacations. You make time to use it. If you find yourself renting more than once in a very blue moon, it's time to slim down your portfolio.
--------
*: Assuming you don't want to do this as a business. That's a different thing.
 

CalGalTraveler

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Yes, but it not linear. This is real-estate with many pockets of value and no value. Generally if there was rental value with profit, entrepreneurs would buy them and rent them out. This would drive up the value. The reason many HGVC Vegas and Vistana Scottsdale units are sold for $$ is that there is arbitrage value in those systems to trade into Hawaii for less than the maint fees to own there.

Alternatively there is value in some Vistana and Marriott units in which you can lock-off one side to rent for MF and use the other side for free - so you get free week. Does not work in all systems.
 

4TimeAway

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Yes, but it not linear. This is real-estate with many pockets of value and no value. Generally if there was rental value with profit, entrepreneurs would buy them and rent them out. This would drive up the value. The reason many HGVC Vegas and Vistana Scottsdale units are sold for $$ is that there is arbitrage value in those systems to trade into Hawaii for less than the maint fees to own there.

Alternatively there is value in some Vistana and Marriott units in which you can lock-off one side to rent for MF and use the other side for free - so you get free week. Does not work in all systems.
The risk I see is that these are arbitrary valuation equivalents and are not based on market forces.

Locations of weeks/deeds cannot be changed. Relative values can easily drift.

Based on my recent purchase and others, there are many Japan-based owners and I suspect they are getting older. At some point they sell or stop paying the fees and at this point the rental pool decreases as the new "owner of the TS" decide to stay there.

On the lock-off we see the impact of a small change on who gets to benefit. With HGVC, it seems like they WIN with a policy like this. We shouldn't put up with this, but we expect it.
 

ScoopKona

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Seven guests is the main problem.

Most timeshares are interchangeable -- a one-size-fits-most approach with two bedrooms and a sleeper couch which nobody likes. There are larger units out there. But they aren't nearly as common. And since many units have lock offs, you're going to see an awful lot of 1bd and studios.

And, despite what most people say, there are a few timeshares which are outstanding traders. You can buy one, and be reasonably confident you will trade for something you like. But when you go to the trading website and browse, it's going to be frustrating seeing all the studios and one bedrooms which you'd love to visit -- but they aren't big enough. The only way timeshare could be more expensive is if you said "and we ski and are only interested in Colorado ski weeks."

I think you're better off sticking with AirBnB/VRBO/etc.
 

easyrider

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If I had a do over knowing what I know now I would have bought Worldmark only off the get go. There are many WM resorts within driving distance from us and I like the WM system are the main reasons. WM exchanges pretty good.

I definitely wouldn't have bought any of the deeded weeks I had as they were a real pita to exit. They were fun but it was the same place every year.

It took a while to get where we are at regarding our timeshare portfolio. It's memberships with multiple destinations that work best for us.

Bill
 
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