[HPC Contract Talk] Request List, Wait List, and Reservations - HRC vs HPC

[alameda94501]

This is part of a series of posts:

Click here for the Introduction Post
Click here for the HRC and HPC Inventory Post
Click here for the Annual Conversion Option Post

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

There are two pools of inventory now - an HRC pool and an HPC pool.

There are thus four cases to cover:

1. HPC Requests/Reservations for HPC Inventory Pool
2. HPC Requests/Reservations for HRC Inventory Pool
   
3. HRC Requests/Reservations for HPC Inventory Pool
   
4. HRC Requests/Reservations for HRC Inventory Pool

By an "HPC Request/Reservation" I mean that of an HPC ownership (HPC Portfolio Points) trying to request/reserve, and by an "HRC Request/Reservation" I mean that of an HRC ownership (HRC CUP) who has not executed what's called an "Annual Conversion Option" to convert their HRPP to the HPC pool temporarily for one year.

One of the trickiest things is that different HPC members get slightly different privileges depending on their Membership Tier (cf: Exhibit B - Membership Tier Level Chart)

(sorry how small print it is, you'll have to click to zoom in)

Case 1: HPC Requests/Reservations for HPC Inventory Pool
(cf: Reservation Rules and Regulations for the HPC Club Vacation Ownership Plan, Exhibit #2 to the Multisite Public Offering Statement)
(cf: Club to Club Exchange Agreement)

A. Request List (between 18mo thru 12mo) “… shall mean the list of HPC Club Owners who wish to make a reservation for use of a Vacation Period in advance of the Owner Reservation Period related to such Vacation Period.

Elite Owners (6,600+ HPC Portfolio Points) can annually request either "18 months before check in day for 1 reservation for a max of 14 nights or 2 reservations for a max 7 nights each"

Premier Owners (4,400 - 6,600 HPP) can annually request "16 months before check in for 1 reservation of maximum of 7 nights"

Executive Owners (2,200 - 4,400 HPP) can annually request "15 months before check in for 1 reservation of maximum of 7 nights

Classic Owners (0 - 2,200 HPP) can annually request "14 months before check in for 1 reservation of maximum of 7 nights"

Non-Authorized RESALE HPC Owners do not have any request list privileges.

After the special Tier-based annual request list bonus, all HPC owners have a 12 month Request List. (This will be important later)
​

B. Owner Reservation Period [ORP]: (12mo to 6mo prior to Check-In Day) - “during which the HPC Club Owner must compete on a first come, first served basis with other HPC Club Owners to reserve the use of any available Vacation Periods in the HPC Club.”

There is an "HPC Fixed option" that members can additionally purchase that gives a special 12mo to 9mo fixed reservation option.

This is the equivalent of the HRPP in HCP land. No one but HPC Club members can compete for this inventory.



C. Exchange Reservation Period (6mo to 2mo) – “During the Exchange Reservation Period, HPC Club Owners and HRC Members have the voluntary right, on a first come, first served basis, to reserve the use of any available Vacation Period within the HPC Club.”

This is what you are seeing in the web site when you see Portfolio Points openings.



D. HPC Club Priority Period (2mo to Check-In Day) – “during which HPC Club Owners have only limited rights to reserve the related Accommodation within the HPC Club.”

Similar to HRC Club Priority Periods, this is how the developer snatches sales weeks and/or does maintenance, but primarily it's open for either HRC or HPC ownership.



Case 2: HPC Requests/Reservations for HRC Inventory Pool
(cf: Reservation Rules and Regulations for the HPC Club Vacation Ownership Plan, Exhibit #2 to the Multisite Public Offering Statement)
(cf: Club to Club Exchange Agreement)

A. Request List (18mo) –”for HPC Club Owners who wish to make reservations for use of Weeks or Split Weeks within the Hyatt Residence Club through the exchange program with Hyatt Residence Club established pursuant to the Club to Club Exchange Agreement in advance of the Week or Split Week being available for reservation by HPC Club Owners.

This is at the crux of how Hyatt (HVGG) favors the HPC. What the Club to Club Exchange Agreement says is simply: "HVGG shall maintain all request lists or wait lists in accordance with the respective Club’s rules."

But... in HRC we have an 18mo Request List for HRC Inventory and in HPC they have a 12mo Request List for HPC Inventory except for the Membership Tier Bonus.

So - 1) An HRC member has no Membership Tier so we don't get the bonus and so we get a 12mo Request List for HPC Inventory, and 2) An HPC member can put forth an 18mo Request List for HRC Inventory.

B. Club Use Period (6mo to 60 days) – “During the Club Use Period, a Club Member must compete with other Members on a first come, first served basis for a reservation for any available Week or Split Week. Club Members will have only limited rights to reserve Weeks or Split Weeks within the Club during the Club Priority Period described below.”

Here HPC competes with us equally for our own HRC CUP weeks.

C. Club Priority Period (60days to 0) – “If a reservation request for a given Week has not been received by Reservation Services by the beginning of the Club Priority Period (the 60-day period preceding the first day of use of every Week), Reservation Services’ ability to confirm a subsequent reservation request for the Week will be limited.”

Again, HPC competes with us equally for our own HRC CPP weeks.




Case 3. HRC Requests/Reservations for HPC Inventory Pool

A. Request List (12mo)

Again, the Club to Club Agreement states: "HVGG shall maintain all request lists or wait lists in accordance with the respective Club’s rules."

And you can see this on the web site where it says in the Request List portion: "If you are using your Portfolio Points to submit a waitlist request for Portfolio Program Resorts, we are accepting those up to 12 months prior to check-in."

B. Exchange Reservation Period (6mo to 2mo) – “During the Exchange Reservation Period, HPC Club Owners and HRC Members have the voluntary right, on a first come, first served basis, to reserve the use of any available Vacation Period within the HPC Club.”

So we miss out on the first 12mo to 6mo period (the ORP) but can compete with them after six months on the HPC inventory.

C. HPC Club Priority Period (2mo to Check-In Day) – “during which Club Owners have only limited rights to reserve the related Accommodation within the HPC Club.”

Same in the HPC Club Priority Period.


Case 4. HRC Requests/Reservations for HRC Inventory Pool

Well... you've all been doing this for some time, probably so I won't bore you here! Nothing's changed within the HRC.

 

[ivywag]

Alameda, let me be the first to thank you for your excellent analysis and for staying up all night to do it! I have been trying for over a year to understand the relationship between the two Clubs, but the information provided is minimal and since I don't have a copy of the HPC Rules and other legal documents for the HPC, it's been difficult to understand what is really happening. There has been a real lack of transparency. I do have one additional thought in reference to the waitlist:

7b (i) During the HRC Club Use Period, HPC Trust Members have the right to use their HPC Trust Club Points separately or in combination with their existing HRC Club Points, if any, to reserve the use of any Weeks or Split Weeks available during the Club Use Period in exchange for the HPC Trust Member’s reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club. HPC Trust Members are advised that they will be competing with Members of the HRC Club to reserve the use of any available Weeks or Split Weeks.

The above paragraph is from the Club to Club Exchange Agreement. The key words are "DURING THE HRC CLUB USE PERIOD." It seems to say that HPC cannot reserve HRC units until the Club Use Period commences. Therefore, although an HPC member can waitlist 18 months in advance, he cannot be confirmed until 6 months prior (the HRC Club Use Period.) As HRC owners, we have been confirmed many times from the waitlist long before the CUP begins. That, if true, would still give us somewhat of an advantage as long as most of the inventory is in the HRC.

We are very concerned that what we were initially sold as a Club is being diminished. I've really been wondering how they are getting this through the various State Departments of Real Estate. If anyone has the Public Offering Statement for the HPC in CA, I'd appreciate a copy. If not I can probably get it from the DRE. CA is usually very consumer-friendly so it would be interesting reading.

 

[alameda94501]

Alameda, let me be the first to thank you for your excellent analysis and for staying up all night to do it! I have been trying for over a year to understand the relationship between the two Clubs, but the information provided is minimal and since I don't have a copy of the HPC Rules and other legal documents for the HPC, it's been difficult to understand what is really happening. There has been a real lack of transparency. I do have one additional thought in reference to the waitlist:

7b (i) During the HRC Club Use Period, HPC Trust Members have the right to use their HPC Trust Club Points separately or in combination with their existing HRC Club Points, if any, to reserve the use of any Weeks or Split Weeks available during the Club Use Period in exchange for the HPC Trust Member’s reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club. HPC Trust Members are advised that they will be competing with Members of the HRC Club to reserve the use of any available Weeks or Split Weeks.

The above paragraph is from the Club to Club Exchange Agreement. The key words are "DURING THE HRC CLUB USE PERIOD." It seems to say that HPC cannot reserve HRC units until the Club Use Period commences. Therefore, although an HPC member can waitlist 18 months in advance, he cannot be confirmed until 6 months prior (the HRC Club Use Period.) As HRC owners, we have been confirmed many times from the waitlist long before the CUP begins. That, if true, would still give us somewhat of an advantage as long as most of the inventory is in the HRC.

We are very concerned that what we were initially sold as a Club is being diminished. I've really been wondering how they are getting this through the various State Departments of Real Estate. If anyone has the Public Offering Statement for the HPC in CA, I'd appreciate a copy. If not I can probably get it from the DRE. CA is usually very consumer-friendly so it would be interesting reading.

My pleasure, @ivywag it was precisely because I realized that I really couldn't figure out HPC without actually enrolling, that I did so (then rescinded).

I don't think badly on the sales team, because it's so complicated and they end up not knowing themselves.

To answer your question, that provision is there just to make clear that our HRPP is protected, as it must be legally.

Basically my understanding from the contacts is when we voluntarily give up our HRPP week (entering CUP early) or involuntarily give it up (6 months to check in without confirming HRPP) the week enters into CUP.

At that point whoever, HRC or HPC, that put in a top Request List entry (if anyone) will get it, and if not, the HPC or HRC member who reserves it on the website first gets it.

So they truly have equal footing with us on our inventory.

I understand that in some ways it feels unfair but this might help; imagine that the sales team were still selling Developer HRC Weeks. The people buying those weeks would still be in the same position as the new HPC members, and compete equally with us on our inventory.

In my other thread I show that there's really not much more HPC inventory right now that we are missing out on. That might change if they build more stuff, but right now I think there's nothing to motivate buying in.

I will get into this in a future topic, but the key difference between us and HPC is the presence of the deeded week. Ultimately we have that to fall back on in case of Armageddon. HPC has nothing in their contract to prevent the "Reservation Services Operator" (Hyatt) from making their points worth next to nothing.

 

[alameda94501]

PS: PM me for the public report.

 

[alameda94501]

@ivywag here is the specific contract language from the 2017 copy of the HRC Club Rules and Regulations.

Section 4.2 Reservation Request Priorities.

The important parts of this section are:

During the Club Use Period, a Club Member must compete with other Members on a first come, first served basis for a reservation for any available Week or Split Week. [...]

and

[...] The Club Use Period (Fixed) begins on the day after the expiration of the Home Resort Preference Period (Fixed), or upon earlier relinquishment of the Home Resort Preference Period (Fixed) rights, and ends on the day before the first day of use of a given Fixed Week.

----------------------

I will say that the Definition given at the start of that document is confusing, since it says:

Club Use Period (Fixed) shall mean the six- (6-) month (182-day) period beginning on the day after the expiration of the Home Resort Preference Period (Fixed) and ending on the day before the first day of use of a given Fixed Week. During the Club Use Period (Fixed), Club Members must compete on a first come, first served basis to reserve the use of any available Week within the Club.

But I think really given how the system and web site operates - HPC members compete equally in all aspects to our HRC inventory but without an HRPP.

 

[peas]

Thanks for the request list rules. What was interesting to me is that unless Hyatt starts building new resorts locking legacy owners out, these points are worth very little due to such harsh restrictions. I don't see much motivation for someone to buy these points as long as there are legacy weeks available for sale.

 

[Eduardo Salido]

If I buy a HRC TS, and have week 4 but want to change the dates or only do a weekend instead of the whole week in the SAME property. Is this permitted by the TS? Will I still have points left for another location?

Thanks

 

[grevas1]

If I buy a HRC TS, and have week 4 but want to change the dates or only do a weekend instead of the whole week in the SAME property. Is this permitted by the TS? Will I still have points left for another location?

Thanks

Yes, one can book the entire deeded week (no points leftover), or use a split week and have the remaining points available.

 

[bradj]

Alameda, let me be the first to thank you for your excellent analysis and for staying up all night to do it! I have been trying for over a year to understand the relationship between the two Clubs, but the information provided is minimal and since I don't have a copy of the HPC Rules and other legal documents for the HPC, it's been difficult to understand what is really happening. There has been a real lack of transparency. I do have one additional thought in reference to the waitlist:

7b (i) During the HRC Club Use Period, HPC Trust Members have the right to use their HPC Trust Club Points separately or in combination with their existing HRC Club Points, if any, to reserve the use of any Weeks or Split Weeks available during the Club Use Period in exchange for the HPC Trust Member’s reservation rights in the HPC Trust Club. HPC Trust Members are advised that they will be competing with Members of the HRC Club to reserve the use of any available Weeks or Split Weeks.

The above paragraph is from the Club to Club Exchange Agreement. The key words are "DURING THE HRC CLUB USE PERIOD." It seems to say that HPC cannot reserve HRC units until the Club Use Period commences. Therefore, although an HPC member can waitlist 18 months in advance, he cannot be confirmed until 6 months prior (the HRC Club Use Period.) As HRC owners, we have been confirmed many times from the waitlist long before the CUP begins. That, if true, would still give us somewhat of an advantage as long as most of the inventory is in the HRC.

We are very concerned that what we were initially sold as a Club is being diminished. I've really been wondering how they are getting this through the various State Departments of Real Estate. If anyone has the Public Offering Statement for the HPC in CA, I'd appreciate a copy. If not I can probably get it from the DRE. CA is usually very consumer-friendly so it would be interesting reading.

Make sure that you understand the difference between "wait list" and "request list." Even Hyatt representatives,whether knowingly or not, use the terms as the same. They're not.

 

[jonfff74]

I am interested in better understanding how to obtain high demand weeks at e.g. HRC resorts like Hyatt Kaanapali and High Sierra Northstar Lodge (summer weeks) by exchanging into them.

Is it possible to exchange into either of those properties during high demand times by using the wait list or request list?

Speaking of such, what is the difference between the wait list and request list?

Do you have any public documents that show the inventory available (number of weeks and when) at Kaanapali, High Sierra, Northstar Lodge, Pinon Pointe, Park Hyatt Beaver Creek, and Hyatt Mountain Lodge? I saw you had posted an inventory list as of 2019. Do you have a more updated inventory list and why was Kaanapli and e.g. Park Hyatt Beaver Creek not on the chart?

 

[alameda94501]

I am interested in better understanding how to obtain high demand weeks at e.g. HRC resorts like Hyatt Kaanapali and High Sierra Northstar Lodge (summer weeks) by exchanging into them.

Is it possible to exchange into either of those properties during high demand times by using the wait list or request list?

Speaking of such, what is the difference between the wait list and request list?

Do you have any public documents that show the inventory available (number of weeks and when) at Kaanapali, High Sierra, Northstar Lodge, Pinon Pointe, Park Hyatt Beaver Creek, and Hyatt Mountain Lodge? I saw you had posted an inventory list as of 2019. Do you have a more updated inventory list and why was Kaanapli and e.g. Park Hyatt Beaver Creek not on the chart?

First - in all the years of ownership of (legacy) HRC I haven't really used the wait list / request list, so I'm no expert on the difference. We're pretty sloppy timeshare owners, and don't plan very far ahead. @bradj made reference above to the difference, and they might weigh in.


Second - for some of the resorts you mention like Kaanapali, Northstar, Beaver Creek, and Mountain Lodge - these are HRC resorts outside the HPC. If you have a unit-week in legacy HRC, you can currently see almost all the best availability on the Hyatt website today. Legacy HRC only has two priority levels to their own inventory: either you have the HRPP deeded unit-week for a resort like Kaanapali, or you're with everyone else in CUP/LCUP. No one gets home-resort advantage, home-week advantage, or any other advantage.

Now, there are some hybrid owners who own at these four resorts who would Annually Convert their unit-week into Portfolio if they don't use their HRPP deeded week, giving HPC members ORP access at 12mo-6mo that legacy HRC owners wouldn't have. But there's no way to track this unless you have Portfolio and view their portal.


Third - for the two Portfolio resorts you mention - High Sierra and Pinon Pointe, yes, having Portfolio points may improve your prospects for specific inventory there, especially with Pinon Pointe. Here are the HPC numbers as of December 2021:

and

Fourth - the inventory posted right above here may be enhanced for Portfolio members in a given year, because the number of "hybrid" owners in Portfolio grows over time, and each year they do not use their unit-week, they may Annually Convert their legacy HRC unit-week into Portfolio for free. There's no way to track this hybridized Portfolio inventory.


So - if you want to maximize your inventory without regard to cost, become an Elite Portfolio member by purchasing resale legacy HRC weeks of ~6000 CUP points, and then pay Hyatt directly $20k with Portfolio points that will not have any resale value and expensive maintenance fees. That will open up an 18mo request list, all ORP 12mo-6mo Portfolio inventory, and all 6mo-0mo legacy HRC inventory.

 

[Tucsonadventurer]

That won't help with Ka'anapali though as there is very minimal portfolio in Ka'anapali

 

[Kal]

Portfolio always puts a big emphasis on getting early bookings. Nonsense. With HRC you can get on the request list 18 months in advance of the day of occupancy. You can add as MANY requests as you like. If you have the points in your account, the request will be booked. If not, just wait until the new points are added for the year.

 

[alameda94501]

Portfolio always puts a big emphasis on getting early bookings. Nonsense. With HRC you can get on the request list 18 months in advance of the day of occupancy. You can add as MANY requests as you like. If you have the points in your account, the request will be booked. If not, just wait until the new points are added for the year.

Yes thanks, I hadn't realized the HRC 18mo advance list when I wrote the first post in this thread years ago. So there ended up being no 'secret backdoor advantage' to HPC.

 

[Kal]

The actual "secret" is HRC owners holding that fact very close to their chests. "Don't let it out or others will get ahead of you on the request list." All the while GO-HYATT was telling everyone who called to do it that way. It always fun to listed to someone say they got on the request list 12 months before their target date. Yep, okay, they're 6 months late

 

[Mongoose]

So if I have a EOY account, how does that impact the 18 month request line.

 

[GTLINZ]

So if I have a EOY account, how does that impact the 18 month request line

There is no rule making EOY points different than EY points. But the reality is that you will get passed on the list if you do not have available non-restricted points in your account. If you have multiple ownerships, this is less likely to be a problem but you may get points pulled from a different contract.

If you only own an EOY, the most likely scenario is you need those points available 6-12 months before the request since that is likely when it will match (and especially at 6 months out).