How to compare Wyndham points with Worldmark Credits?

[Cathyb]

Where are the mathematical geniuses here on TUG :whoopie: ?

Is there some way a Worldmark owner with say 10,000 credits can evaluate what that amount equates to in Wyndham points? TIA

 

[Jya-Ning]

Is there a way to say what you can get using 10,000 WM credit for sure? No. It depends on how you use it. Same as Wyndham. So you can not compare.

However, assume you looking at the old resorts, WM 10,000 is about 2 BD in prime time. It is about 154k Wyndham in older resort in Prime time.

Nobody will deposit 10,000 to exchange company. Probably deposit 4,000 to exchange company. Wyndham is 28k in that sense (Blue Stdio). But WM has much better trading power.

For new internal resort WM 10,000 is about to get 1 BD in prime.
Wyndham will need 200k

Based on MF 10,000 WM probably cost similar to 120k Wyndham.

But one gives you West coast resort, one gives you resorts around the country.

By the way, you can also look at Wyndham's point chart and WM's point chart for WM (and Wyndham's) affliate resort, and get a feel what the internal reservation system think of their ratio.

Jya-Ning

 

[Rent_Share]

The difficult task is going to be that there is a fixed amount for maintenance fees on 10,000 WN credits where as the MF on WVO vary by the underlying property of the WVO contract



I know I did it years ago using Southshore since their inventory is split between WN and WVO (plus a few fractionals) and the end result was

WVO lower buy in, higher annual maintenance fees​

WM slighyly higher buy in, lower maintenance fees​

Let me dig and I will see if I can re-construct what I did before

 

[Cathyb]

Jya-Ning: Thank you -- I have somewhat of a basis now

 

[Cathyb]

RentShare: Aha, I have found the mathematical genius -- will await your next note

 

[Rent_Share]

Here we go - for SouthShore Nevada

WM Red 10,000 2BD Annual Maintenance $ 570.54

WVO High 238,000 2BD Annual Maintenance $ 867.00
Prime 324,000 2BD Annual Maintenance $1,141.00
High 300,000 2BD-Presidential Annual Maintenance $1,065.00
Prime 400,000 2BD-Presidential Annual Maintenance $1,384.00


Prime = Week 52 and 4th of July




Using this isolated example

1 WM Point = 238 WVO Points​

Maintenance fees are 52% higher for WVO 867/571​

My calculation could be off by the difference of Points Plus memberships $ 24.10/Year for WVO​

With WVO you could be "responsible" for an assesment at the resort with WM that would be spread across all 60 resorts, there is a cap of 5 % on maintenance fee increases, not aware of any cap with WVO

At 13 months I have been able to book with 10,000 WM points prime week (still 10,000 points) for 2008, 2009 and 2010 which has 1/2 maintenance fees of a prime week 1141/567 = 2

My contract is only for 6,000 points, WM (for now) still has the ability to rent points from owners to book what you want, soemthing WVO shut off in 3/2009


Here is a link to a MF calculator for WVO

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=6823

You may have to register to access

Here is a link to the WM Maintenance Fee Table

http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21585

 

[Cathyb]

Here we go - for SouthShore Nevada

WM Red 10,000 2BD Annual Maintenance $ 570.54

WVO High 238,000 2BD Annual Maintenance $ 867.00
Prime 324,000 2BD Annual Maintenance $1,141.00
High 300,000 2BD-Presidential Annual Maintenance $1,065.00
Prime 400,000 2BD-Presidential Annual Maintenance $1,384.00


Prime = Week 52 and 4th of July




Using this isolated example

1 WM Point = 238 WVO Points​

Maintenance fees are 52% higher for WVO 867/571​

My calculation could be off by the difference of Points Plus memberships $ 24.10/Year for WVO​

With WVO you could be "responsible" for an assesment at the resort with WM that would be spread across all 60 resorts, there is a cap of 5 % on maintenance fee increases, not aware of any cap with WVO

At 13 months I have been able to book with 10,000 WM points prime week (still 10,000 points) for 2008, 2009 and 2010 which has 1/2 maintenance fees of a prime week 1141/567 = 2

My contract is only for 6,000 points, WM (for now) still has the ability to rent points from owners to book what you want, soemthing WVO shut off in 3/2009


Here is a link to a MF calculator for WVO

http://forums.atozed.com/viewtopic.php?f=164&t=6823

You may have to register to access

Here is a link to the WM Maintenance Fee Table

http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21585

rentshare: I am sorry, I got a little lost

Here is the possible trade: 2BR Worldmark Red Season Yellowstone exchange (13,500 credits) for the week before Mardi Gras (but not including Mardi Gras Big Day) at Wyndham Belle Maison in New Orleans for either 1 or 2 BR. I think BM's value for 1 BR is 189,000 points plus $756. fees.

Now in baby talk, how do I compare ?

 

[bnoble]

When I compared them, I compared rental prices of credits (easy to figure out---a very active market here, I think I used six cents per credit) and of Wyn reservations (harder, but not impossible, I think I used $4.50/K). My recollection was that 15K WM credits and 225K Wyn points were pretty comparable in rental value.

If you're talking about a direct exchange, the only important question is whether the parties believe it's an equitable exchange, or at least "close enough". Personally, I would be willing to give up a little more in a direct exchange than I was getting back in just dollars-and-cents, because direct exchanges are easier to deal with than trying to rent out mine and rent someone else's, and there is no RCI/II exchange fee to worry about.

 

[Rent_Share]

And my analysis essentially said 10,000 WM = 238,000 WVO using like for like at the exact same property with the same amenities

2 Bedroom Southshore = 10,000 WM points or 238,000 WVO Points

However that resort would most likely have a much higher WM point value had it been brought into the system under the current regime so my number may be significantly understated -

Some of the newer WM resorts 2 bedroom rates.

Anacrime - 16,500 Presidential 30,000 WM Points​

San Diego MV 15,000​

West Yellowstone 13,500​

Santa Fe NM 14,000 1 Bedroom​

As to the Rental Comparison


I would agree on the 6 cents number for WM, but have no reference for a per/point rental value for WVO which has been changed from a universal currency (points are points) to a resort demand based value, since you must now rent reservations, not points from WVO owners.

Using the point rental vs point rental methodology results in a better comaprison since it compares the relative worth of the entire portfolios not just an isolated resort

 

[bnoble]

have no reference for a per/point rental value for WVO

There are a few Wyndham owners over at forums.atozed.com who are offering to rent a reservation of your choice, using their points, at a $/K price. That's the basis I used to evaluate equivalence.

 

[BocaBum99]

When I compared them, I compared rental prices of credits (easy to figure out---a very active market here, I think I used six cents per credit) and of Wyn reservations (harder, but not impossible, I think I used $4.50/K). My recollection was that 15K WM credits and 225K Wyn points were pretty comparable in rental value.

If you're talking about a direct exchange, the only important question is whether the parties believe it's an equitable exchange, or at least "close enough". Personally, I would be willing to give up a little more in a direct exchange than I was getting back in just dollars-and-cents, because direct exchanges are easier to deal with than trying to rent out mine and rent someone else's, and there is no RCI/II exchange fee to worry about.

I believe that the right conversion is about 15 to 1. 10000 credits is roughly equivalent to 154,000 Wyndham points. You got to the same ratio in a different way.

Rent share's analysis is interesting, but not accurate since he uses an outlier data point instead of a median or mean example for comparison purposes. In addition, he doesn't use cost of capital in the equation which needs to be factored in since WorldMark credits cost more than Wyndham points. Lastly, if he wants to use a rental model for WorldMark, he must also use a rental model for Wyndham. You can still rent Wyndham reservations, you just can't do transfer points any longer. And, when you rent a reservation from a platinum owner, you get a steep discount for reservations less than 60 days from check in. So, even though there is an added guest confirmation fee, the deal can be much better.

 

[Jya-Ning]

rentshare: I am sorry, I got a little lost

Here is the possible trade: 2BR Worldmark Red Season Yellowstone exchange (13,500 credits) for the week before Mardi Gras (but not including Mardi Gras Big Day) at Wyndham Belle Maison in New Orleans for either 1 or 2 BR. I think BM's value for 1 BR is 189,000 points plus $756. fees.

Now in baby talk, how do I compare ?

JMHO

It is an exchange, so you have to determine if you like the deal or not. If you think it is acceptable, it is, if you just try to put a value, it will not working as that.

For example, use Brain's example, I could argue that before Wyndham stop the renting method, it is from $5 to $6 per 1K, so I could say it probably is $5.25 per 1K for Wyndham. That gives you a very different ratio.

On the other hand, if you just renting from some Plantimun VIP, they may willing to give you the benefit of discount and upgrade. So you may get 2 Bd like 94.5K if they can get it.

Most of the time, exchange happens between friends, not for commerical.

And some reservation is hard to get then the other. Some maybe hard just for that system, but if you go through other system, you may get easier choice. Some units are much bettter than the other.

You have to make decision if you think you are willing to reserve for someone on the WM side for Yellowstone for 2 BD red season for the price of 1BD at New Orlando before Mardi Gras or not. You may have strong reason to go there at that week, and may know you will not be able to use your 10,000 WM credit anyway.

The point are in the range per usuage wise. The exchange can not get to exact, as long as it is in the range, it can be a possible exchange.

This is probably what I will do, if I want to go that route,

You need to look at your WM credit, and decide
1) what will you do with those credit
2) based on the way you use the credit, what kind of value you think it will bring you (or cost you)
3) what your choose to get the exchange side
4) what is the possiblity and what it cost you

Than you can answer that

So, say you will use the credit for vacation if you can not get the exchange,

So, if you travel to Yellowstone as you think, it cost you the MF of those credit, if you rent the room from the owner, it will cost you the renting credit cost, so the value is the renting credit cost.

Now, you may try to exchange using RCI on any NO resort, it will require you probably 8,000 credit deposit and 164 exchange fee, but it is no guarantee, you make a guess that you probably will get it with 30% of chance that you will get a place you can accept. So if you don't get it, you will have to rent it, and assume you believe it is about $1000 per week, so it is $700 ($1000 * .7) + whatever the exchange route will cost you * .3

Than you get the 2 figures, if they are within tolorance range, or in favor of you (especially if you use your MF as WM credit value) you can consider take it.

Jya-Ning

 

[Cathyb]

jya-ning I thank you!

JMHO

It is an exchange, so you have to determine if you like the deal or not. If you think it is acceptable, it is, if you just try to put a value, it will not working as that.

For example, use Brain's example, I could argue that before Wyndham stop the renting method, it is from $5 to $6 per 1K, so I could say it probably is $5.25 per 1K for Wyndham. That gives you a very different ratio.

On the other hand, if you just renting from some Plantimun VIP, they may willing to give you the benefit of discount and upgrade. So you may get 2 Bd like 94.5K if they can get it.

Most of the time, exchange happens between friends, not for commerical.

And some reservation is hard to get then the other. Some maybe hard just for that system, but if you go through other system, you may get easier choice. Some units are much bettter than the other.

You have to make decision if you think you are willing to reserve for someone on the WM side for Yellowstone for 2 BD red season for the price of 1BD at New Orlando before Mardi Gras or not. You may have strong reason to go there at that week, and may know you will not be able to use your 10,000 WM credit anyway.

The point are in the range per usuage wise. The exchange can not get to exact, as long as it is in the range, it can be a possible exchange.

This is probably what I will do, if I want to go that route,

You need to look at your WM credit, and decide
1) what will you do with those credit
2) based on the way you use the credit, what kind of value you think it will bring you (or cost you)
3) what your choose to get the exchange side
4) what is the possiblity and what it cost you

Than you can answer that

So, say you will use the credit for vacation if you can not get the exchange,

So, if you travel to Yellowstone as you think, it cost you the MF of those credit, if you rent the room from the owner, it will cost you the renting credit cost, so the value is the renting credit cost.

Now, you may try to exchange using RCI on any NO resort, it will require you probably 8,000 credit deposit and 164 exchange fee, but it is no guarantee, you make a guess that you probably will get it with 30% of chance that you will get a place you can accept. So if you don't get it, you will have to rent it, and assume you believe it is about $1000 per week, so it is $700 ($1000 * .7) + whatever the exchange route will cost you * .3

Than you get the 2 figures, if they are within tolorance range, or in favor of you (especially if you use your MF as WM credit value) you can consider take it.

Jya-Ning

Thank you for your note! We have just returned from 5 stays at Worldmark -- Canada and West Coast so right now I doubt we will have BIG plans for next year's credits. We also own 3 non-WM weeks on Maui and Kauai (our favorites) and plan in 2010 to travel there. Cannot thank you enough for the 'food for thought'!!!!!!!

 

[bccash63]

I believe that the right conversion is about 15 to 1. 10000 credits is roughly equivalent to 154,000 Wyndham points. You got to the same ratio in a different way.

Rent share's analysis is interesting, but not accurate since he uses an outlier data point instead of a median or mean example for comparison purposes. In addition, he doesn't use cost of capital in the equation which needs to be factored in since WorldMark credits cost more than Wyndham points. Lastly, if he wants to use a rental model for WorldMark, he must also use a rental model for Wyndham. You can still rent Wyndham reservations, you just can't do transfer points any longer. And, when you rent a reservation from a platinum owner, you get a steep discount for reservations less than 60 days from check in. So, even though there is an added guest confirmation fee, the deal can be much better.

BocaBum99--using your analysis here I think Cathy and I would be pretty close. I am the other party exploring a possible direct exchange and if my math is correct using your 15:1 ratio--the 13,500 Worlmark credits would =approx 202,500 Wyndham points. A 1 br at Belle Maison would cost me 189,000 points. I don't have VIP so do not get a discount. I get 1 free guest certificate/yr and after that I think it is up to $100. This was interesting/challenging to explore as the two systems are different. Thanks for suggestions as to what would be equitable and fair for both parties Dawn

 

[bccash63]

Is there a way to say what you can get using 10,000 WM credit for sure? No. It depends on how you use it. Same as Wyndham. So you can not compare.

However, assume you looking at the old resorts, WM 10,000 is about 2 BD in prime time. It is about 154k Wyndham in older resort in Prime time.

Nobody will deposit 10,000 to exchange company. Probably deposit 4,000 to exchange company. Wyndham is 28k in that sense (Blue Stdio). But WM has much better trading power.

For new internal resort WM 10,000 is about to get 1 BD in prime.
Wyndham will need 200k

Based on MF 10,000 WM probably cost similar to 120k Wyndham.

But one gives you West coast resort, one gives you resorts around the country.

By the way, you can also look at Wyndham's point chart and WM's point chart for WM (and Wyndham's) affliate resort, and get a feel what the internal reservation system think of their ratio.

Jya-Ning

Jya-Ning using your analysis is what I was trying to figure out. How to compare cost just using maint fees. I know what my maint fees are per pt but am completely unfamiliar with the Worldmark maint fees. Using the above 10,000 WM=120k Wyndham would equate to approx 13,500 WM =162k Wyndham(if I did my math correct). Just using maint fees and no other factors would also put Cathy and I pretty close to what we were trying to figure out. thanx again for all the input--Dawn

 

[Jya-Ning]

Jya-Ning using your analysis is what I was trying to figure out. How to compare cost just using maint fees. I know what my maint fees are per pt but am completely unfamiliar with the Worldmark maint fees. Using the above 10,000 WM=120k Wyndham would equate to approx 13,500 WM =162k Wyndham(if I did my math correct). Just using maint fees and no other factors would also put Cathy and I pretty close to what we were trying to figure out. thanx again for all the input--Dawn

See my post #12. I probably will use MF comparison only if I want to sell my TS and purchase another. In fact, I may more likely use rent_share' model if I want to do that.

In exchange, you probably don't care the other side's cost. You care about your cost, The other side, you usually determine by determine how much it will cost if you take different route. Since ownership does involve risk (like SA), and different ownership will make cost different. For example, I have other club that MF range from $3 to $1 per 100 credit depends on how many points the member own. So a week in New York could cost $1500 to $300 depends on the ownership. But I would not feel cheated, if someone's cost is $300. It requires a lot of points, a small SA could bankrupt that person.

In your case, since you have 2 sides willing to give it a try, it is really both side decide what they are willing to offer.

If you only have one side try to post an ad, I probably use the rent rate in WM, and offer the point range I can take than post in Wm side says I need what reservation in exchange of Wyndam reservation with reservation point range within this or something in that range.

Both Places should be lovely, hopefully, you get it work.

Jya-Ning

 

[Jya-Ning]

Excahnge is not exact change thing. I can argue since I am not Wyndham VIP, thus I will need to pay GC and it will not get discount and room upgrade. Even a VIP could argue that since it is hard to expect one in discount period, so no discount can apply. But to otherside, it does not matter too much, what their estimate cost will be if they have to use rent to get that reservation is what they have to use. Usually between your MF and the price you are willing to pay, it should have some range, thus exchange should be able to create situation both sides can feel acceptable and happy with.

In case if you both feel the exchange is unjustify to one side, and want to use money to compensate the difference, than IMHO, I probably will use the point rent rate since it is much simple, and WM does have enough data and market to support it, although Wyndham does not allow that, it has enough old history established before March, 2009. And do the difference there. But it should be O.K. as long as both of you agree the method, for example, you can simple use AAA's hotel rate in both time/place slot and say times *.7 or * 2 if you both agree it feels fair.

Jya-Ning