Help! Bali Hai Resale Purchase

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Looking for some advice from TUG on this one.

I recently won an ebay auction for 203,000 Bali Hai EY points. Auction was for 203,000 points. Contract I signed was for 203,000 points. This was with an ebay reseller whom I have used before successfully and who has good feedback. I paid the money. Yesterday their closing department sends me a copy of the deed that I need to sign and notarize (because it's Hawaii).

The deed itself does not mention anything about points. In pertinent part it reads as follows:

Transfer of Ownership ....all of Grantor's rights and potential future liabilities or obligations in the property ("the Property"), as described in Exhibit "A", which is attached to and made a part hereof this Deed.

Exhibit A, in pertinent part reads as follows (exact unit numbers omitted by me):

The Interval consisting of a 2/102nd undivided interest in and to the following unit.
FIRST: Apartment No. XXX, of that certain condominium project known as "Bali Hai Villas," as shown on Condominium File Map No. 2176 and described in the Declaration of Condominium Property Regime dated October 19, 1994, recorded on December 22, 1994 in the Bureau of Conveyances, State of Hawaii, as Document No. 94-209497, as the same was and may be amended

So that to me looked like a floating/fixed week, and not points (and nowhere else does it reference points on the deed). I emailed the closing agent, and she responds:

this must have been a conversion meaning it was originally a fixed week but someone upgraded it to points.

She then included a screenshot of a portion of the estoppel which includes the matching contract number, name, and the the following statement:

Your Ownership Information: Your vacation ownership consists of 203,000 points at Club Wyndham Bali Hai Villas. This is an annual ownership interest and is allocated 203,000 points for use in Each year(s). The use year for this contract currently ends on 12/31 if your buyer is an existing Club Wyndham Plus owner the use year on this account will be adjusted to the use year on their existing membership.

So here's my question: Assuming this is a converted week, will it stay a converted week when I get it? I do not want to end up with a fixed Bali Hai Week, my understanding is that those are worthless (I see them on ebay for $1 all the time), and would be very difficult for me to get rid of. Is there any other due diligence I should be doing here? I looked up the deed on the Hawaii Board of Conveyances website and all I can see is the fixed week conveyance to the owner. I got a decent deal on this, but I also just don't want to risk ending up with a week that I can't use and can't get rid of. Thanks in advance for any advice anyone can give!

 

[jbman]

We bought two EOY Bali Hai contracts, each was 203,000 points, one odd, one even, so it works out to 203,000 points every year, but one was points and one was a converted week.

On the plus side, the points for the converted week went through just fine, so we have access to the all the points we expected (eventually, it did take some time where the contract was showing up in our account, but the points were not showing up, no one seemed to know what was going on, it eventually got sorted out, I suspect it may have had something to do with the fact it was a converted week, but I don't know that for sure).

The negative side is the maintenance fees may be more than you expected, not bad, but the fees for our converted week contract are definitely higher than our points contract.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

The negative side is the maintenance fees may be more than you expected, not bad, but the fees for our converted week contract are definitely higher than our points contract.

Thanks! How much per point? Are we talking significantly higher? I definitely paid a premium here because these were supposed to be low maintenance, bali hai points.

 

[bnoble]

Assuming this is a converted week, will it stay a converted week when I get it?

Yes. Conversion contracts convey with the deed. (However, the seller must maintain MF payments, or Wyndham can withdraw the week.)

I would assume the fees are whatever the underlying fees for the fixed week are, more or less. I say more or less because fees for converted weeks are paid monthly during the year prior to use, but the fee amounts are not known until almost the end of that year prior. So, they are estimated. If they over-estimate, the excess collected is booked against the next year's monthly amount; if they under-estimate, the deficit is added to the next year's monthly amount.

 

[Danlop88]

Thanks! How much per point? Are we talking significantly higher? I definitely paid a premium here because these were supposed to be low maintenance, bali hai points.

Wouldn't you be able to get a rough estimate using the 203k points and what ever the maintenance fee was disclosed in Ebay.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I would assume the fees are whatever the underlying fees for the fixed week are

Any idea how I find this out? I wonder if I can back out of this. This was not advertised as a converted fixed week and the contract I signed didn’t list it as such.

 

[geist1223]

I do not know if it is still true but historically MF on a Floating Week were less than the equivalent number of Wymdham Points.

 

[jbman]

Thanks! How much per point? Are we talking significantly higher? I definitely paid a premium here because these were supposed to be low maintenance, bali hai points.

Honestly I find it hard to find the information online, I did get something with the 2025 fees in the mail I believe, I forget the number and don't have it here, but I think I worked it out that it was roughly equivalent to the fees for Grand Desert and would have been better off just getting points there. It wasn't very expensive to get that contract, but not the best purchase.

 

[bnoble]

It's listed in the master spreadsheet under the fixed week tab. Looks like it was $1,235.04 in 2024. That's a ratio of $6.08/K which is fine, IMO.

You probably can't get out of it for mis-representation: It is, after all, a Bali Hai 1BR, and it does carry 203K points with it. If the disclosed MF were roughly correct, then that's the deal. But, the rescind deadlines apply for resales, not just purchases from the developer, so if you are inside your rescind window you can undo it.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

It's listed in the master spreadsheet under the fixed week tab. Looks like it was $1,235.04 in 2024. That's a ratio of $6.08/K which is fine, IMO.

You probably can't get out of it for mis-representation: It is, after all, a Bali Hai 1BR, and it does carry 203K points with it. If the disclosed MF were roughly correct, then that's the deal. But, the rescind deadlines apply for resales, not just purchases from the developer, so if you are inside your rescind window you can undo it.

I don’t know, I just looked at the purchase contract I signed:

That sure seems inaccurate to me…

I’m unfortunately past rescission, I didn’t find this out till they sent me the deed for me to notarize.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Well, I sent them a very polite email indicating that the deed does not match what’s in the contract and asking for a refund. I’ll report back with the results. I guess my worst case scenario is that I’m out the purchase price since I don’t think they can close without me getting the deed notarized.

 

[bnoble]

Did anything list the maintenance fees? The ad?

Again, I don’t think that ratio is all that bad. Optimal? No. But okay. It could be worth keeping.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Did anything list the maintenance fees? The ad?

Again, I don’t think that ratio is all that bad. Optimal? No. But okay. It could be worth keeping.

The ad did, but I assumed (like almost all ebay ads) that it was wrong because it's never broken down by maintenance fee versus program fee, and sometimes it includes and sometimes it doesn't include the program fee. I agree the maintenance fee isn't terrible, but it's also not great (and appears to be even higher than grand desert which can be gotten for free right now with closing costs paid by seller). I mostly bid on this because it was a bali hai, and while I don't need the points, I figured I could pick it up and then try to get rid of some of my higher cost contracts like bonnet creek. Also, I am extremely risk averse, and the fact that Wyndham could **** up and revert this to a fixed week contract that is completely worthless (and that I would likely be unable to get rid of) scares me too much to move forward here.

 

[geist1223]

I thought that has been Wyndumb's Policy at Bali Hai ( and perhaps a few other Resorts) that when a week that had been converted to Points was resold it reverted to a Week.

 

[paxsarah]

I thought that has been Wyndumb's Policy at Bali Hai ( and perhaps a few other Resorts) that when a week that had been converted to Points was resold it reverted to a Week.

I've purchased two converted fixed weeks, one in 2019 and one in 2023 (though neither at Bali Hai), that remained converted to points when they transferred to me. As long as fees are kept current, Wyndham doesn't revert them.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I've purchased two converted fixed weeks, one in 2019 and one in 2023 (though neither at Bali Hai), that remained converted to points when they transferred to me. As long as fees are kept current, Wyndham doesn't revert them.

So the risk here is that the seller stops paying maintenance fees before the contract transfers to me. Given this is an ebay purchase from a postcard company, I think that risk is real, and certainly not one I'm willing to take. If this were a purchase from a tugger using LT transfers I'd probably feel differently.

 

[Danlop88]

So the risk here is that the seller stops paying maintenance fees before the contract transfers to me. Given this is an ebay purchase from a postcard company, I think that risk is real, and certainly not one I'm willing to take. If this were a purchase from a tugger using LT transfers I'd probably feel differently.

So were you able to walk away from this bid and if so at what cost?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Update: After some (pleasant) back and forth emails with the ebay reseller, we both came to the conclusion that Wyndham's estoppel for this contract was wrong. The reseller provided example estoppel's that Wyndham had sent him in the past for converted weeks, and they clearly listed the fact that they were converted weeks. In this case, Wyndham incorrectly listed the contract as a 203k UDI contract in the estoppel, but looking at the actual deed from the Hawaii BOC showed that it was definitely a week (and I assume converted, but who knows since all we had was Wyndham's incorrect estoppel). So both the ebay reseller and I were relying on the same incorrect estoppel. I told the ebay reseller I didn't think this was his fault, and was in fact Wyndham's fault, but nonetheless I was still requesting a refund as the contract I signed did not match the deed that was being conveyed.

Based on that the ebay reseller agreed to cancel the contract and refund our payment in full. I am awaiting the refund to hit my credit card.

 

[paxsarah]

I guess it's skewed because we probably don't hear about correct estoppels, but it sure seems like I've heard about too many incorrect estoppels coming from Wyndham in the last year or two.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I guess it's skewed because we probably don't hear about correct estoppels, but it sure seems like I've heard about too many incorrect estoppels coming from Wyndham in the last year or two.

FWIW, in all previous sales to this I had requested estoppels, and they were "correct" in the sense that they correctly listed the ownership and the annual dues being paid by the current owner. Unfortunately that second piece of it is somewhat useless since you don't know if:

1. The current owner is paying the minimum program fee;
2. If the current owner has plus partners or not (although this only matters for about 2 cents or so).

Since I've tended to purchase small add-on contracts, the answer to question #1 is an important missing piece of information. So that was 5 "correct" estoppels and one incorrect estoppel. Of course, this is the first time I didn't request the estoppel in advance of bidding only because I had purchased from this reseller twice before so didn't think I needed to look at it. Learned my lesson! (Not that it would have mattered since the estoppel was wrong).

Edit: Actually, I guess I really have no way of knowing if the annual dues piece of the previous estoppels was correct since I don't know the answer to those two questions.

 

[paxsarah]

FWIW, in all previous sales to this I had requested estoppels, and they were "correct" in the sense that they correctly listed the ownership and the annual dues being paid by the current owner. Unfortunately that second piece of it is somewhat useless since you don't know if:

1. The current owner is paying the minimum program fee;
2. If the current owner has plus partners or not (although this only matters for about 2 cents or so).

Since I've tended to purchase small add-on contracts, the answer to question #1 is an important missing piece of information. So that was 5 "correct" estoppels and one incorrect estoppel. Of course, this is the first time I didn't request the estoppel in advance of bidding only because I had purchased from this reseller twice before so didn't think I needed to look at it. Learned my lesson! (Not that it would have mattered since the estoppel was wrong).

Edit: Actually, I guess I really have no way of knowing if the annual dues piece of the previous estoppels was correct since I don't know the answer to those two questions.

When I picked up a free Oceanside contract from Timeshare Nation a couple of years ago, they sent me the estoppel as a matter of course and it was incorrect. The contract was biennial, and the estoppel stated in text that it was was an even year interest, but the available points were listed as full points in the upcoming odd year and zero points in the even year. One of those things had to be incorrect. I took the chance on it because it was a good contract either way, and while I preferred an even contract I could make an odd contract work. After I signed the agreement with Timeshare Nation I did my own due diligence after the fact and requested the original deed from the county - which also stated it was an even year interest. And indeed, once it transferred it was an even year contract, and it had zero points available in the odd year and full points in the even year (so the points listed on the estoppel were wrong/backwards).

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Anyway, thanks all for the help and advice as always! I feel much better having gotten this one cancelled and my wife and I decided we're going to take a break from adding on any more Wyndham contracts for a while...