Hardwood Floors Are Cupping - Help Needed

[22go]

Our house is 1 1/2 years old. We have white oak floors throughout the house. This year right around the holidays, we noticed the cupping and it got worse and has stabilized. The humidity in the house is about 40% and the humidity under the house is also within acceptable range. The builder had his floor guy test the wood and it also was within the acceptable range. We have hd no leaks or water damage to the floors.
My husband said that when the wood was first installed and finished, he noticed that the seams between the boards were not perfectly flat but he thought that was normal.
Anyone familiar with this problem? Our builder is stumped. We are anxious to get this resolved because anything I have read says that the longer the floors are cupped the less likely they will return to normal.

 

[mo1950]

Honestly, I would call around and find a house inspector to come look at it. Also, a couple of other flooring experts (altho keep in mind they might have their own agenda).

There might have been mistakes in the original installation of the floor, and perhaps the installer himself might not know what he did wrong. Or - could be a faulty product.

Since the installer does not seem to know what the problem is, I would definitely have a few other experts look at it, considering this was probably an expensive floor. There is probably some kind of warranty involved, and you want to make sure you find out what the problem is before the warranty expires. If it is material or workmanship, it needs to be diagnosed quickly. Perhaps something can be done soon to repair it before any more cupping occurs.

 

[YeongWoo]

Cupping is always caused by the moisture. The wood expands and pushes up. After a prolonged dry spell it will settle back down but leave a gap. There are some guys out there involved with fire damage restoration that are very successful at salvaging the situation. It will cost a lot and yes it may already be past the point where the outcome is good. I think their equipment is basically a lot of dehumidifiers and fans.

Assuming you mean that you have a crawlspace, the real issue is the crawlspace humidity. It may be fine now but it most definitely was high. I would verify that I have 100% coverage of 6mil poly and check for any puddles or water intrusion. There is a drain probably and it should be free obstructions. Most homes in the past were built to the specification that allowed air to circulate in such a way that water intrusion wasn't an issue. The home felt drafty but it would last for 200 years because water wasn't trapped. Newer homes are built air tight and any water becomes an issue.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Do not get a house inspector. There are a bunch of morons who inspect houses, at least in Colorado (no licensing required, you can just start a company yourself, without any qualifications whatsoever, and make $250 a pop). Realtors get very frustrated with house inspectors.

Get someone from your local hardwood floor company to look at it and give an assessment. You will probably have to pay a fee, but it would be well worth it to get an honest evaluation from someone other than the installer/ builder.

I would check with the local BBB for a company that has no complaints and has been in business a long time.

 

[Jestjoan]

TUG experts

What about hardwood on a slab? We are thinking of replacing our carpet in the future.

 

[22go]

We just spoke to the builder and he is going to lower the humidity setting in the house to #1 out of 7. He was also hinting that if the floors needed to be ripped up and replaced, the cost to us would be $15-20,000.

 

[Glynda]

Anyone familiar with this problem?

Oh boy, am I! Years and years of it. In one house, the builder moved all the downstairs furniture out to refinish four times, only to have them pop back up. It was a nightmare of inspectors (including hardwood floor manufacturer's rep), measurements, machines and no one seemed to know what to do.

The poster who said it's about moisture is right. Mine was a synthetic stucco house (a horror story in itself) and water was getting behind the stucco and running down and in under the floors. When a lichen/mushroom started growing out of the dining room baseboard, we figured out where it was coming in. The builder had to tear down a whole side wall of the house and rebuild and re-stucco it, wait months and then refinished the floors one last time. I was so glad to get rid of that house!

Somewhere, somehow you have moisture. Are you going to settle for running a dehumidifier????

I would find my own inspector to find where the moisture is coming from. Someone who only inspects. I learned that lesson when the 1800's heart pine floors started cupping in our Charleston house last year. I hired someone who came in with an instrument that had a screen and "saw" behind the walls. You could see big dark streaks behind the wall between my house and the house it's attached to that he identified as left by water. We approached my neighbor and only then did he tell me that they had a big leak in their attic when they had an a/c unit go bad. He let my inspector in to see it. Water runs in odd ways. It ran down their attic walls, across and through their second floor and down into mine. It caused my upstairs floors to cup but not a drop showed through my sheet rock ceilings on the first floor and the first floor floors were fine. Once it was fixed our floors went back down. And yes, they're further apart at the seams than they were. I could have asked for damages and replaced the floors (they are too old and have been refinished too many times to refinish again) but I couldn't bring myself to remove these original floors. These are good neighbors and one has to choose their battles wisely. My floors look their age anyway, they tell a story. Bigger cracks don't bother me in this case but they did in the new house and what I settled for here I did not there.

Good luck!

 

[RDB]

Reading this may help...
http://www.woodfloorsonline.com/techtalk/woodwater6.html

 

[YeongWoo]

We just spoke to the builder and he is going to lower the humidity setting in the house to #1 out of 7. He was also hinting that if the floors needed to be ripped up and replaced, the cost to us would be $15-20,000.

Changing the humidity in the house is still not addressing the problem. The humidity under the floor is the issue most likely. I've never seen one of these issues that wasn't ground source or bulk water intrusion. Your home interior is already low enough. Most new construction homeowners don't need an interior dehumidifier and they sure don't need one in the winter when the air is at it's driest.

BTW, mopping the floor with water would qualify as a bulk water intrusion to a certain extent. Hardwood floors should never be mopped with water in newer homes. The water will soak into the wood and sit because of the tight construction. It's conceivable that over time that would cause cupping.

 

[22go]

Thanks for all the help.
YeongWoo - when you speak of the 6 mil poly which we do have on the ground under the crawl space (with the exception of the 10x20 ft. service slab which accesses our heater) should there be additional vapor barriers attached to the bottom of the first floor joists?
We have also never wet mopped the floor. I use vinegar and water and a sponge so no water remains on the floors.
We have no visible leaks.

 

[ScoopKona]

As stated, cupping is always a moisture problem.

The wood will lay back down when the moisture is removed. But it will take a long time, and the damage is likely done.

I would start pricing around your "fix/replace" options and find someone in your area that can help you tackle the moisture problem so this doesn't happen again. Angie's List is a good place to find competent help for either.

After the moisture is removed, you can either:

1) Sand the floor flat and refinish it.

2) Rip up the floor and replace it.

Knowing how the floor is attached to the subfloor will make the decision easier. Nailed down? I'd just replace it. Glued down? I'd do anything I could to save the existing floor so I didn't have to hire a team to remove it.

Finally, $10-15K sounds outrageous. I did 2,000 sq.ft. of hardwood at my house and the materials were $4.5K. Floor installers around here get $2 to $3 per square foot, so unless you have 3,000 square feet of wood to replace, that sounds out of line to me.

(Then again, EVERYTHING on Long Island is probably more expensive than Las Vegas. But I would never shell out $15K on an improvement project without getting several bids.)

 

[YeongWoo]

Thanks for all the help.
YeongWoo - when you speak of the 6 mil poly which we do have on the ground under the crawl space (with the exception of the 10x20 ft. service slab which accesses our heater) should there be additional vapor barriers attached to the bottom of the first floor joists?
We have also never wet mopped the floor. I use vinegar and water and a sponge so no water remains on the floors.
We have no visible leaks.

No, you don't want a vapor barrier attached to joists because that would then trap moisture on structural framing members. Ideally, you would have an insulated sealed crawlspace with no ventilation which would essentially be a conditioned space. The most typical application is a ventilated crawlspace with less than 100% poly coverage. You can expect a lot higher humidity in the later and that is a problem. And if you have a drainage issue that allows water to pond in the crawlspace then...

Anyway, my point is you a looking at a small part of a larger problem. Not a severe problem and certainly not one worth the kind of money being thrown around. Just make sure you treat the whole problem not just the cosmetic issue.

 

[e.bram]

Use teakwood when you replace them.

 

[Glynda]

Angie's List

Angie's List is a good place to find competent help for either.

Is Angie's list free? Has anyone here used it?

 

[zinger1457]

What about hardwood on a slab? We are thinking of replacing our carpet in the future.

You would not be able to put hardwood floors directly on a slab, would have to build up a subfloor or use engineered hardwood.

 

[JudyH]

Angies list is not free. I think I paid $45 for a year.

 

[bobcat]

Angies list is not free. I think I paid $45 for a year.

You could place plastic on the floor in the crawspace. Do not do the walls or the insulation. I would also place a dehumidifier down there and have it drain outside the house. You can run plastic pipe and drill a hole in the side of the house. If the run is long, you may also need a pump to run the water out of the house. If it is a very large crawspace, you may need two units. You could check this info out.

 

[ScoopKona]

You would not be able to put hardwood floors directly on a slab, would have to build up a subfloor or use engineered hardwood.

Actually, with newer floating hardwood floors, it is possible to put hardwood directly on slab, on grade. (Below grade is still a no-no.)

I've got about 800 sq.ft. on slab, no problems yet.


And for whoever asked, Angie's List costs around $50/year. Money well spent. If it keeps just one incompetent tradesman out of your house each year, it will save far more than that.

 

[Glynda]

Angie's List

Thanks for the replies on Angie's List. I had looked around the site a bit and not found a price. I noticed that the first step is to enter a zip code. Having two homes, I wonder if once I've entered a zip code and paid, can I look up other zip codes as well? Yes, it would be worth it.

 

[22go]

Thanks again for all the responses.
We are thinking that the next step should be (as suggested) an inspection. The builder lowered the humidifier to the lowest setting. The consenses from all of you is that the problem is not in the house but moisture underneath. The builder assured us that the wood was not damaged and the installation is not at fault. One of his foremen did a visual inspection underneath the house and found no puddles, or visual leaks. The builder seems to be dragging his feet by insisting the problem is moisture in the house (our interior humidity readings are 35%) so we will now have to start spending some money to become more proactive.

 

[ScoopKona]

We are thinking that the next step should be (as suggested) an inspection. The builder lowered the humidifier to the lowest setting. The consenses from all of you is that the problem is not in the house but moisture underneath. The builder assured us that the wood was not damaged and the installation is not at fault. One of his foremen did a visual inspection underneath the house and found no puddles, or visual leaks. The builder seems to be dragging his feet by insisting the problem is moisture in the house (our interior humidity readings are 35%) so we will now have to start spending some money to become more proactive.

My, where to begin...

1) First of all, remember that you're "at arms length" from the builder. He is not going to admit any fault, even if he (or one of his subcontractors) is to blame for your moisture problems.

2) I remember reading more than one post in this thread that home inspectors often don't know what they're doing. It's very difficult to find a home inspector who specializes in water damage. Hiring "some dude" out of the phone book isn't likely to help matters.

3) Why do you need the builder to lower your humidifier settings? This is something I think you should be monitoring yourself. I also do not know why a humidifier is necessary at all on Long Island. The humidity there right now is in the 50% range. (Well, at Long Island City, NY.) I can't imagine any place on LI is much different.

4) Your builder is going to tell you whatever he thinks is going to keep him from having to pay for costly warranty repairs to your house (assuming it's under warranty), and/or avoid a lawsuit from poor construction. Spend money to fix this problem, sure. But I think you'll be better served learning all the systems in your house. Otherwise it's going to be expensive every time something happens.