[LOCKED] Gaming the system - Resale Club Wyndham Points with VIP.

[paxsarah]

It wouldn’t be difficult to restrict their booking abilities to their home resort. They can restrict non-VIP owners from booking margaritaville more then 5 months out. They can make their membership not eligible to book any resort except their home resorts.

There is no real way of knowing exactly what they are capable of but it’s certainly a lot more then back in 2016. For example, separating resale from retail is something they couldn’t do back in 2016.


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I'm not saying it couldn't be possible - I'm just wondering if it's currently possible, technically. Are they already doing this, or is this just something they could theoretically do? They could do things in 2016 that they're no longer able (or willing) to do, too, like show the next available check-in date at any resort. And there were things that they could do within the last year or so that have stopped working and they apparently haven't gotten around to fixing (like multiple aspects of the availability calendar - limiting visibility to bookable stays, or the unit size filter).

 

[Sandi Bo]

Don't poke the bear - a quote that often comes to my mind when dealing with Wyndham.

 

[Richelle]

I'm not saying it couldn't be possible - I'm just wondering if it's currently possible, technically. Are they already doing this, or is this just something they could theoretically do? They could do things in 2016 that they're no longer able (or willing) to do, too, like show the next available check-in date at any resort. And there were things that they could do within the last year or so that have stopped working and they apparently haven't gotten around to fixing (like multiple aspects of the availability calendar - limiting visibility to bookable stays, or the unit size filter).

I guess you could say it is theory, but I still wouldn't chance it. There is no telling what they would do. Could be something worse that I am not thinking of.

 

[paxsarah]

I guess you could say it is theory, but I still wouldn't chance it. There is no telling what they would do. Could be something worse that I am not thinking of.

Oh, yeah. I certainly wouldn't chance it. It just seems more likely to me that Wyndham would lock the account, if the owner is lucky they'd allow some small subset of actions the owner can use it for, but they have to call in, wait on hold, then every agent they get is confused in a different way about what's allowed or not. Which to me is probably worse than a well-oiled IT machine that can limit an owner to booking only at their home resort with the push of a button.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm not saying it couldn't be possible - I'm just wondering if it's currently possible, technically. Are they already doing this, or is this just something they could theoretically do? They could do things in 2016 that they're no longer able (or willing) to do, too, like show the next available check-in date at any resort. And there were things that they could do within the last year or so that have stopped working and they apparently haven't gotten around to fixing (like multiple aspects of the availability calendar - limiting visibility to bookable stays, or the unit size filter).

If they remove the owner from CWP - they would simply disable online access - preventing any/all use of the owner website. So in my view it's not a matter of rules within the existing online system - it'd simply be a matter of on --> off if/when an owner violates T&Cs and is removed from CWP - after which they can only book at their home resort - and only via a VC by calling - their online account is essentially frozen - similar to what occurred in 2016 timeframe for mega-renter accounts basically.

 

[kanerf]

A number of years ago, I purchased a Wyndham resale contract either at Old Town or Kingsgate, I don't remember which, but after the contracts were added to my account I suddenly became Silver and they even sent me a Silver card. It only lasted for about 4 months though and someone at corporate figured it out and I was downgraded to non-elite again.

 

[troy12n]

Does Wyndham have a written policy on adding and removing co-owners from timeshare deeds?

You realize what you are asking to do is "how can I defraud Wyndham"... right?

Wyndham's flat out answer is, resale points don't count towards VIP. Period.

You trying to weasel your way into someone else's account to accomplish this is probably not going to end well for you. Nor should it... How about some of you actually practice ethical behavior in life...

Congrats on admitting you did something extremely unethical, if not downright illegal, on the internet. I think, as a group, we probably should not be assisting other owners on how to defraud the timeshare company. Other people getting access to VIP privileges costs all of us in the long run.

 

[bnoble]

If I were to put my Wyndham Trust Manger hat on, I can think of a couple of procedural changes that not only definitively close this line of thinking, but also eliminates a way folks have been getting around guest certificates.

I will bet that within ten years, these changes happen.

 

[Richelle]

Congrats on admitting you did something extremely unethical, if not downright illegal, on the internet.

I don't think they actually did it. It was just a question. I agree unethical, but don't blast them because they asked a question. People are not going to ask questions here if they think they are going to get blasted. You know who wins when people don't ask questions? The sales people. So while both you and I do not agree with what they are CONSIDERING doing, treating them badly is not the answer because it's a bad look for us to people who may need help with legitimate things.

 

[troy12n]

So while both you and I do not agree with what they are CONSIDERING doing, treating them badly is not the answer because it's a bad look for us to people who may need help with legitimate things.

Asking legitimate questions is fine, but when one starts a post with the title of "gaming the system"... that doesn't skirt the "ethical line", it leaps right over it.

And I might be a complete jerk, but for what it's worth, my ethics are impeccable and unquestioned. I would never suggest or ask a question like that in an open forum.

I don't think we should even entertain such questions. The days of "Ron and company" running a training clinic for would-be mega renters and cheats is over. And that's a good thing.

 

[Richelle]

I don't think we should even entertain such questions. The days of "Ron and company" running a training clinic for would-be mega renters and cheats is over. And that's a good thing.

But the OP is unlikely the only one who has thought of that or will think of that. By explaining why it wont work, and what the consequences are, will help deter some people from trying that.

And I might be a complete jerk

Never said you were, but...

 

[chapjim]

Don't poke the bear - a quote that often comes to my mind when dealing with Wyndham.

I used to work for a Marine Colonel. His version was, "Don't rub a bull in the a$$ with sandpaper."

 

[DrGavin]

Asking legitimate questions is fine, but when one starts a post with the title of "gaming the system"... that doesn't skirt the "ethical line", it leaps right over it.

And I might be a complete jerk, but for what it's worth, my ethics are impeccable and unquestioned. I would never suggest or ask a question like that in an open forum.

I don't think we should even entertain such questions. The days of "Ron and company" running a training clinic for would-be mega renters and cheats is over. And that's a good thing.

Who is "Ron and Company?" Apparently there is a "mega renter" who owns a whole bunch at Margaritaville in St. Thomas named "Mr. Todd." Is he part of "... and Company?"

 

[montygz]

Who is "Ron and Company?" Apparently there is a "mega renter" who owns a whole bunch at Margaritaville in St. Thomas named "Mr. Todd." Is he part of "... and Company?"

If I recall correctly, Ron Parise focused on New Orleans rentals. He was quite active on TUG and may still be around. If you search for him, you can find some of his insights on the renting era.

The "megarenter" the way I understand it was certain owners acquiring millions of resale points to go with a VIP membership and then maximizing those benefits to rent and profit.

Making prime reservations, then canceling and rebooking them was one way to maximize points via VIP ownership. Some would call this gaming the system, others would testify their salesperson told them it was a great technique to take advantage of.

Like anything, one person's "gaming the system" is another person's "savvy strategy."

What has happened is that Wyndham opened its eyes to some of what was happening in the rental market and made new rules to limit some of the old techniques.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Who is "Ron and Company?" Apparently there is a "mega renter" who owns a whole bunch at Margaritaville in St. Thomas named "Mr. Todd." Is he part of "... and Company?"

Ron is not Mr. Todd. Ron is a friend and a person who truly gamed the system and admitted it and was treated rudely by several TUG members, including the one who is referring to him as Ron and company.

 

[DrGavin]

Ron is not Mr. Todd. Ron is a friend and a person who truly gamed the system and admitted it and was treated rudely by several TUG members, including the one who is referring to him as Ron and company.

Who is "Ron and Company?" Apparently there is a "mega renter" who owns a whole bunch at Margaritaville in St. Thomas named "Mr. Todd." Is he part of "... and Company?"

If I recall correctly, Ron Parise focused on New Orleans rentals. He was quite active on TUG and may still be around. If you search for him, you can find some of his insights on the renting era.

The "megarenter" the way I understand it was certain owners acquiring millions of resale points to go with a VIP membership and then maximizing those benefits to rent and profit.

Making prime reservations, then canceling and rebooking them was one way to maximize points via VIP ownership. Some would call this gaming the system, others would testify their salesperson told them it was a great technique to take advantage of.

Like anything, one person's "gaming the system" is another person's "savvy strategy."

What has happened is that Wyndham opened its eyes to some of what was happening in the rental market and made new rules to limit some of the old techniques.

Thanks to all for the insights. I certainly don't want to step on any landmines, and I get the sense that there are a few such landmines scattered throughout the various TUG forums.

My main goal is to generate enough income to help my elderly mother offset her maintenance costs while she is medically unable to travel, but I don't want to do anything to cause Wyndham to damage her account or send her a nasty note, so any tips on threading that needle are most appreciated.

 

[DRIless]

I used to work for a Marine Colonel. His version was, "Don't rub a bull in the a$$ with sandpaper."

a Marine Colonel and a bull are usually synonymous.

 

[chapjim]

a Marine Colonel and a bull are usually synonymous.

He had quarters on the old Naval Ordnance Station in Louisville. One evening he was out for a stroll and stopped at one of the Little League fields that were on the station. He watched the game for a while, then started yelling at the umpire for totally kicking a call. The umpire tried to throw him off the facility. You can imagine how that turned out!

This was in 1973.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Can/do they actually do this? Like, is there actually a mechanism in the system for Wyndham to place this sort of limitation on owners? I'm thinking of back in 2016, when Wyndham had a question about whether owners were playing them, they just froze the accounts. I guess I recall hearing of other issues where Wyndham placed some limitations on accounts and forced owners to call to be able to do anything - it all had to be manually over the phone. But I can't say I've ever heard of Wyndham placing this sort of restriction of points-based home resort only because of an infraction.

Yes they have done this, and they can do this, it's actually fairly easy for them to do, there's a switch available where Wyndham simply disables online system access for the owner account(s) - which they can also do if/when any owner violates the website usage T&Cs which you explicitly agree to whenever using the owner website. Once online access has been disabled, the owner must call in to make reservations, and the VCs can easily see whether an account has been removed from the Club Wyndham Plus exchange system. As @Richelle said, it's at Wyndham's discretion, and I doubt they do this very often, but it is something that Wyndham can absolutely do.

It really has nothing to do with the ownership type, whether CWS/CWA/PR/MVC - it has to do with whether the account has access to the CWP exchange or not. Whether people realize it or not, whenever you make any reservation within CWP - SDUA inventory converted into points is traded between the resorts at that point in time. SDUA or Seven Day Use Availability (this is referenced all over the place in the CWA POS when listing out what CWA holds for actual inventory) is how the inventory is actually traded on the back end from what I have gathered - or at least it used to be - a remnant of the how the core systems work on the back end from the weeks based ownership models. This may have changed when they rolled out the newest website, as there were also a lot of back end changes made at that time.

If you are a CWA owner and aren't allowed access to CWP - then you can literally only make reservations from inventory that is actually held by CWA (kinda like what happens in the ARP window - only the ARP experience becomes the entire ownership experience once the CWA owner has been removed from CWP).

 

[paxsarah]

there's a switch available where Wyndham simply disables online system access for the owner account(s) - which they can also do if/when any owner violates the website usage T&Cs which you explicitly agree to whenever using the owner website. Once online access has been disabled, the owner must call in to make reservations

This I was aware of, and is what I was referring to with my reference to the 2016 account freezes (and more recent freezes).

whether an account has been removed from the Club Wyndham Plus exchange system

This is the part I'd never heard of happening before. Both in that I haven't heard an example of an individual who's been subject to this, and I wasn't aware the system could enforce it (given all the things the system seems unable to do these days). But if you say you know they've programmed it and used it, then I guess I learned something new today.

 

[RENTER]

Who is "Ron and Company?" Apparently there is a "mega renter" who owns a whole bunch at Margaritaville in St. Thomas named "Mr. Todd." Is he part of "... and Company?"

If I recall correctly, Ron Parise focused on New Orleans rentals. He was quite active on TUG and may still be around. If you search for him, you can find some of his insights on the renting era.

The "megarenter" the way I understand it was certain owners acquiring millions of resale points to go with a VIP membership and then maximizing those benefits to rent and profit.

Making prime reservations, then canceling and rebooking them was one way to maximize points via VIP ownership. Some would call this gaming the system, others would testify their salesperson told them it was a great technique to take advantage of.

Like anything, one person's "gaming the system" is another person's "savvy strategy."

What has happened is that Wyndham opened its eyes to some of what was happening in the rental market and made new rules to limit some of the old techniques.

Booking, cancelling and rebooking still happens and would not happen if there was no availability 60 days out. So, I call it savvy strategy. It could backfire on them if they book a year out and that reduces the amount of rooms available on that 60th day. Because of one of the changes they cannot depend on cancelling the room and it automatically pops back up for them to rent. But for renters like me that is not a problem since we do not go for the prime resorts at prime time for the discount. We go for events at off season resorts and dates where there usually will be rooms still available on that 60th day.

 

[paxsarah]

Booking, cancelling and rebooking still happens and would not happen if there was no availability 60 days out. So, I call it savvy strategy.

What happens today is typically booking, rebooking, and cancelling - that is booking in advance (ideally at 10 or 13 months), checking for inventory inside 60 days - if available rebooking at a discount (possibly with an upgrade) the same vacation you had booked in advance, then cancelling the original. That is not what was happening prior to May of 2017. At that time, VIP owners could book, cancel, and rebook at a discount with zero inventory 60 days out. They could also do a more elaborate sequence of booking and cancelling if they also wanted to force the possibility of an instant upgrade. But all of it was possible with no availability 60 days out.

 

[chapjim]

What happens today is typically booking, rebooking, and cancelling - that is booking in advance (ideally at 10 or 13 months), checking for inventory inside 60 days - if available rebooking at a discount (possibly with an upgrade) the same vacation you had booked in advance, then cancelling the original. That is not what was happening prior to May of 2017. At that time, VIP owners could book, cancel, and rebook at a discount with zero inventory 60 days out. They could also do a more elaborate sequence of booking and cancelling if they also wanted to force the possibility of an instant upgrade. But all of it was possible with no availability 60 days out.

In essence, one created the availability by canceling a reservation.

 

[jasontugaccount]

@rickandcindy23 I'm thinking about starting up a renting business to fund more travel. Can you offer a clinic to help me get started?

@troy12n thanks for the fantastic idea!

 

[CO skier]

@rickandcindy23 I'm thinking about starting up a renting business to fund more travel. Can you offer a clinic to help me get started?

Wyndham's answer to the AG after we wrote was that Wyndham is taking care of owners and stopping the rental businesses. They are apparently the only ones who can rent prime inventory. Owners cannot rent anything.