Founders Level [Wyndham]

[epearsall]

Looking to see if we were the only couple sold a founders level.
As of right now, there is no "founders level"
Last November, while at Wyndham there, we were sold a package that brought us to "founders level,"
or 1,400,000 per year.
We were told the following:
We could use around 500,000 points per yeat for Wyndham resorts.
the other 900,000 would pay for nearly all our other travel, including:
More than 1 cruise each year on ANY major cruise line
Airfare for 2 on several trips per year
We could use our Wyndham Rewards Visa card to pay all of our maintenance, if we spent $50,000 per year

We found none of the above to be true.
the only cruise available was a 7 day on Norweagen for 1,300,000 points
air fare for two for that trip would be 254,000 per person
It would take $500,000 per year on the visa card to pay all our maintenance

We hired an attorney at considerable expense, but wyndham refused to budge at all, the attorney
advised that we had a "pretty good case," but it would likely take 2 or 3 years, and if we lost
we would have thousands in legal fees.
Regretfully, we are no paying off the insane (15%) Wyndham Mortgage on moving on.

ANYONE ELSE HAVE THIS EXPERIENCE??? ANY ADVICE???

 

[chapjim]

As many will probably chime in, the most efficient use of Wyndham points is to book reservations at Wyndham resorts -- not cruises, not air fares, not maintenance fees.

If you can't use 1.4 million points yourself, consider alternatives but the first alternatives should be renting and gifting to family or friends.

If you are a credit union member, look into refinancing at a lower rate.

Forget litigation. I wish you had asked about litigation here before engaging counsel. Wyndham has defended hundreds, probably thousands, of similar legal actions. Their contracts are solid and even a "pretty good case" will lose because none of the promises you cite are in the contract. It is what is called "puffery" -- on the same level as "This car right here's a real good car." Your attorney has given you good counsel.

Wyndham is a pretty good company once you get out of the sales room. The resorts are nice and there are a lot of them in good locations.

 

[55plus]

What state do you live in and would you consider yourself elderly? I believe it was the Attorney General in Wisconsin that went after Wyndham and won. Part of the case was because of the purchasers age. I guess one could consider Wyndham’s confusing sales tactics were elder abuse.

 

[cbyrne1174]

Founders level is actually awesome if you are close to retirement age and can afford it. You get 60% off discounts if you book 2 months before check in. You can plan to be away from home for half of the year with that many points. I would just never buy it personally because it isn't cost effective for my income range and I would never be able to personally use that many points. I can only get maybe 4-5 weeks of usage a year with mainly local trips, so VIP makes no sense for my situation.

 

[kaljor]

A lot of what you say they told you is untrue. But owning 1.4 million points and being a Founders level owner can get you a hell of a lot of wonderful vacations. For you and your loved ones, not necessarily for rentals.

Of course if you took out a loan to buy these points, with a 14.99% APR, well that's a horse of a different color. If the monthly payments are out of reach you shouild probably just stop paying now and suffer the consequences. Of which the worst is probably a significant dent to your credit rating. But I think that goes away with time.

 

[chapjim]

Founders level is actually awesome if you are close to retirement age and can afford it. You get 60% off discounts if you book 2 months before check in. You can plan to be away from home for half of the year with that many points. I would just never buy it personally because it isn't cost effective for my income range and I would never be able to personally use that many points. I can only get maybe 4-5 weeks of usage a year with mainly local trips, so VIP makes no sense for my situation.

I haven't seen 60% discounts. 50% yes, but not 60%.

 

[DRIless]

I haven't seen 60% discounts. 50% yes, but not 60%.

I didn't think the new levels had actually been instituted yet?
This from an email two days ago:



VIP by Wyndham: Ready For A Refresh

New possibilities are so refreshing. VIP by Wyndham is anticipated to launch in November 2020 with two new tier levels, adjusted points values, and enhanced benefits — all built to elevate your vacation experiences.1 There are plenty of reasons to get excited about what’s to come with your new upcoming VIP program. Here are two big ones:

Your VIP status is here to stay.
As a current VIP member, you’re already locked in to your tier, so you keep your existing status come November. So, if you’re Gold today, you’ll still be Gold in the new program.

New VIP Status
Bronze - NEW! 300,000 - 499,999
Silver 500,000 - 799,999 (Or Current Silver)
Gold 800,000 - 1,099,999 (Or Current Gold)
Platinum 1,100,000 - 1,399,999 (Or Current Platinum)
Founders - NEW! 1,400,000 +

VIP Exclusives are ready to go.
When VIP by Wyndham launches — along with the new tiers and benefits — in November, you’ll also receive new limited-time offers. But why wait? You can check out the latest VIP Exclusives offers today.

Catch up on all the latest VIP by Wyndham news and find answers to frequently asked questions by visiting clubwyndham.com/vipbywyndham.

 

[Richelle]

I haven't seen 60% discounts. 50% yes, but not 60%.

VIP by Wyndham

VIP by Wyndham is the Club Wyndham VIP program reimagined. Its five tiers deliver carefully curated benefits allowing owners to enhance their vacation experiences.

clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com

 

[Richelle]

What I have to say is not pleasant, but it's the truth. Founders' benefits start in November of this year. If you can afford it, there are some decent benefits. I'm sorry that the salesperson lied to you, but everything you mentioned, could have been researched and verified before the rescission period ended. You would have seen examples of how many points a cruise is by opening up the directory. The points cost of airfare, rental cars, and cruises can vary. It could be higher or it could be less. You could have asked or googled what the conversion rate is to use your points for maintenance fees. I am guessing you wouldn't walk into a car dealership and buy a car if you didn't know how to drive, or do any research on the car. So why didn't you do your research on this before the rescission period ended? It's a lot of money. The rescission period is documented in the contract.

Don't get me wrong. I am in no way defending the salesperson. It's not ok that they lied to you. However, you have to realize you played a role in that bad decision too. It's your duty to protect your money and not impulse buy an expensive product. It is your responsibility to research what you bought instead of giving blind faith in a commissioned salesperson. I'm going to take a guess and say Wyndham is going to point out, in the directory, the points chart for cruises. They may also point out on the website, what the conversion rate is for Wyndham rewards. They will make a case that all the information was there for you to verify what you allege they said. I know this is not what you want to hear, but I doubt the lawyer told you any of this. That's because he didn't bother researching the product or that he is ok with taking your money, even if he thinks it's a losing battle. I hope you didn't talk with one of those timeshare exit companies who scam people out of their hard-earned money. They have no problem giving you false hope. There are tons of them out there. If you wish to proceed, I wish you the best of luck. I honestly hope you get what you want out of it.


By the way, you can skip the whole rewards thing if you don't want to spend $500k on a credit card and convert your points to maintenance dollars. The conversion rate, which is documented in the directory is .0021 cents per point. 1.4 million points will get you $2,940 points and zero vacations. I'm guessing you're maintenance fees are 2 or 3 times that. I love the Wyndham product but absolutely hate the salespeople. The other employees are great. The salespeople are a black mark on an otherwise great product. If you decide to keep it, learn how to use it, so you can get the most bang for your buck. If you make a reservation well in advance, you have a higher likelihood of getting what you want. If you want a 3 or 4 bedroom, you'll definitely need to book far in advance. At 60 days from check-in, check availability again. That is your discount window. If what you want is available, book it, and then cancel the old one. If there is a one-bedroom and two-bedroom available, you can book the one-bedroom at 60% off and upgrade to the two-bedroom. So you got a two-bedroom at the discounted one bedroom price. About 80% of my reservations are discounted and/or upgraded. The other 20% I either opted out of the free upgrade, or it was a 3 bedroom and the chances of being upgraded to a four-bedroom were slim.

Please, Please, Please read the program guidelines in the directory. If you don't, you're going to constantly be frustrated when you cannot book what you want, or end up with a fee you were not aware of. At a minimum, go to the new owner section of the website and watch the videos.

 

[chapjim]

VIP by Wyndham

VIP by Wyndham is the Club Wyndham VIP program reimagined. Its five tiers deliver carefully curated benefits allowing owners to enhance their vacation experiences.

clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com

View attachment 26980

I see that and it may be out there somewhere in time. I get 50% discounts all the time. I have never received a 60% discount.

 

[Eric B]

I see that and it may be out there somewhere in time. I get 50% discounts all the time. I have never received a 60% discount.

N.B., the new Wyndham VIP program has been announced as starting in November 2020, though no actual date has been provided. I wouldn't expect to see 60% discounts due to being Founders' Level until the new program starts then, so it's not all that surprising that you haven't, though you never know with the resort-specific discounts. On the other hand, if you combine the discount that could be attributed to a unit size upgrade, you've very likely greatly exceeded the 60% - I regularly get a bit over 60% off booking a VIPG discount of 35% and getting a bump up to a 2 BR deluxe from a 1 BR.

 

[chapjim]

N.B., the new Wyndham VIP program has been announced as starting in November 2020, though no actual date has been provided. I wouldn't expect to see 60% discounts due to being Founders' Level until the new program starts then, so it's not all that surprising that you haven't, though you never know with the resort-specific discounts. On the other hand, if you combine the discount that could be attributed to a unit size upgrade, you've very likely greatly exceeded the 60% - I regularly get a bit over 60% off booking a VIPG discount of 35% and getting a bump up to a 2 BR deluxe from a 1 BR.

Okay. Combining a resort-specific discount with a VIP upgrade is not what we were talking about, but okay.

 

[paxsarah]

Okay. Combining a resort-specific discount with a VIP upgrade is not what we were talking about, but okay.

To simplify, Founders hasn't been instituted yet. It will start in "November" which is why you haven't seen 60% discounts yet.

 

[Eric B]

Okay. Combining a resort-specific discount with a VIP upgrade is not what we were talking about, but okay.

Roger that; I was discussing the issue of not having been able to see a discount that doesn't exist yet and the combination of a VIP Gold upgrade and discount yielding greater than 60% off the cost of the resulting reservation. Admittedly a red herring, but no more so than the statement that I haven't seen the sunrise tomorrow yet - something else that many believe will happen, but no one has yet witnessed because the time it should happen hasn't come yet.

 

[chapjim]

To simplify, Founders hasn't been instituted yet. It will start in "November" which is why you haven't seen 60% discounts yet.

I get this, but until it is implemented, it is subject to change. Someone said you can get 60% discounts. No, you can't. Maybe someday, but now, there are no 60% discounts.

 

[chapjim]

Roger that; I was discussing the issue of not having been able to see a discount that doesn't exist yet and the combination of a VIP Gold upgrade and discount yielding greater than 60% off the cost of the resulting reservation. Admittedly a red herring, but no more so than the statement that I haven't seen the sunrise tomorrow yet - something else that many believe will happen, but no one has yet witnessed because the time it should happen hasn't come yet.

The initial statement about 60% discounts was in the present tense: "You get 60% off discounts if you book 2 months before check in." Not, "Starting in November 2020, if Wyndham implements the plan they have been touting, you'll get 60% discounts."

Right now nobody gets 60% discounts, which is all I was pointing out. Call it splitting hairs or call it being somewhat accurate.

 

[Eric B]

I'm a firm believer in splitting hairs and flyspecking. Context matters, though. First sentence of the posting read:

What I have to say is not pleasant, but it's the truth. Founders' benefits start in November of this year. If you can afford it, there are some decent benefits.

 

[paxsarah]

Right now nobody gets 60% discounts, which is all I was pointing out. Call it splitting hairs or call it being somewhat accurate.

"I have never received a 60% discount" is different than pointing out "This program won't be implemented until November and no one has received a 60% discount yet." If you meant the latter, then stating the former leaves a lot out.

 

[chapjim]

Okay, I give up!! I'll be happy to take the 60% discounts whenever they become available.

 

[epearsall]

Well, it's pretty difficult to do any research on a program that doesn't exist yet.
We were told it would be rolled out January, 2020 and that all the current values for cruises
and airfares were being totally revised for the new founders level. Part of our final package included a summary page by the sales rep telling use we could get Multiple cruises and airfares each year, which was the reason we might have had a good case. We are certainly not keeping the 15% Wyndham Loan, we have refi'd it at
2.99. These is still very very little detail on what founders level is. We are, by the way, "elderly," but
not usually gullible. Blatent LIES by the sales rep and his manager. If we purchased a car, and the salesman promised that in 10 months the car's engine would be replaced with new technology that got 75 MPG, I think we would have a fradulent contract when it didn't happen. We do plan to use this a lot, it will be even more
so since we could not travel safely much in 2020. Caveat Emptor!

 

[Pathways]

the sales rep telling use we could get Multiple cruises and airfares each year, which was the reason we might have had a good case.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but those statements are true. For 1.4m points/yr, you can easily get multiple airfare's and cruises. Just not the ones you found.

 

[Richelle]

Well, it's pretty difficult to do any research on a program that doesn't exist yet.
We were told it would be rolled out January, 2020 and that all the current values for cruises
and airfares were being totally revised for the new founders level. Part of our final package included a summary page by the sales rep telling use we could get Multiple cruises and airfares each year, which was the reason we might have had a good case. We are certainly not keeping the 15% Wyndham Loan, we have refi'd it at
2.99. These is still very very little detail on what founders level is. We are, by the way, "elderly," but
not usually gullible. Blatent LIES by the sales rep and his manager. If we purchased a car, and the salesman promised that in 10 months the car's engine would be replaced with new technology that got 75 MPG, I think we would have a fradulent contract when it didn't happen. We do plan to use this a lot, it will be even more
so since we could not travel safely much in 2020. Caveat Emptor!

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Maybe my BS radar is more fine-tuned than yours but I would have asked to see the literature about those programs and when they couldn't produce it, I would have walked. When we first purchased, the sales guy told us if we were presidential reserve, we'd be treated like kings and queens. "You're in Orlando and want a New York Pizza? We'll fly it down to you". My first thought was that would be one very expensive pizza, and he is chock-full of bull dung. What I actually said was that the pizza would be pretty disgusting by the time it got to Orlando. Then he tried selling me on the cancel rebook game as a benefit. Even in my 20's, I wasn't gullible enough to think Wyndham wouldn't close that loophole. I didn't even bother asking for the literature because I knew it was BS. I purchased 182,000 points. I knew he couldn't back up any of his claims, so we didn't go Platnium or PR that day.

 

[55plus]

Well, it's pretty difficult to do any research on a program that doesn't exist yet.
We were told it would be rolled out January, 2020 and that all the current values for cruises
and airfares were being totally revised for the new founders level. Part of our final package included a summary page by the sales rep telling use we could get Multiple cruises and airfares each year, which was the reason we might have had a good case. We are certainly not keeping the 15% Wyndham Loan, we have refi'd it at
2.99. These is still very very little detail on what founders level is. We are, by the way, "elderly," but
not usually gullible. Blatent LIES by the sales rep and his manager. If we purchased a car, and the salesman promised that in 10 months the car's engine would be replaced with new technology that got 75 MPG, I think we would have a fradulent contract when it didn't happen. We do plan to use this a lot, it will be even more
so since we could not travel safely much in 2020. Caveat Emptor!

You were sold something that DID NOT exist at the time of purchase and currently still doesn’t exist. Contact the consumer protection agency in your state and the attorney general. You were sold something that doesn’t exist, you were confused by the lies they told you and you were taken advantage of because of your age - elder abuse.

I don’t believe Caveat Emptor applies because the produce didn’t exist at the time of purchase. I hope the 2.99% interest rate is fixed for the life of the loan.

 

[epearsall]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but those statements are true. For 1.4m points/yr, you can easily get multiple airfare's and cruises. Just not the ones you found.

Please show me examples of how to find multiple airfares and cruises with by 1.2 million.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Please show me examples of how to find multiple airfares and cruises with by 1.2 million.

I can't help you find airfares or cruises but I'll give you my opinion on use of your points. If this hasn't been said, the only good use of Wyndham points is for room reservations. No other use of points provides a decent return of value for your money. Unless the idea that you otherwise would not have vacationed, or cruised, or gone to Disney - intangible things -- if that is of value to you, then it's worth it.

If 1.4M points is going to be more than you can use, you might want to consider gifting (or renting) to friends and family. Maybe you could charge family maintenance and use the money for your airfare or cruises?

And in all seriousness, depending on your age, it may be the best loophole you have going for you. In my opinion, the most successful lawsuits we hear about, are those related to Wyndham taking advantage of the elderly. Selling elderly more points than they possibly need for top dollar. Confusing them, lying to them, that kind of stuff.

No one here will recommend paying someone to take it off your hands. NEVER pay an upfront fee. Timeshare stuff is extremely confusing and even if you have an awesome lawyer, you likely don't want to pay them to litigate on your behalf. If you were going to pursue litigation, you'd want someone experienced with timeshares.

What do others think about the Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation (Florida DBPR)? Wyndham answers to no one, but they like to keep the Florida DBPR happy. You can file a complaint with them. It won't cost you anything. Wyndham doesn't have to do anything, but I hear sometimes they will out of goodwill. If you are elderly, maybe they'd consider making you happy versus you persuing litigation? My 2 cents, hopefully others will weigh in.

So sorry for the situation you are in. You are not alone, it's how many got here. TUG is a great place. Any questions you have, drop them here. You'll get plenty of opinions, take the advice or leave it. But it's a good place to bounce ideas around. I'll also be founder when the new program is introduced. Hoping we are happy with whatever is (finally) delivered. It's been teased around (and changed some) for quite some time. For sure, one reason it's been floated so much is to increase sales (and for sure you are not alone in your purchase and flawed promises (how's that a new name for lies))?

Best of luck to you!
Sandi