Doing Presentation tomorrow. Any Questions I should ask OR topics to explore?

[jpa2825]

We bought an Encore at our last trip to HHI in JAN 2016 and are now at HHI Monarch taking the 4 night visit during the Heritage golf tourney. We plan to buy the 100k MR points tomorrow (we were told we could decide on that at the presentation) but don't see the benefit of anything else. Once we do the 90 minute presentation (ugh), we'll get our free cruise certificate and have 18 mos. to schedule it (I think). Will ask lots of questions about that.

I know they'll use the "the $1500 you paid for the Encore will go to waste if you don't apply it to your DP purchase now." Not concerned too much about that.

New locations opening to discuss?

New programs to discuss?

We are at the 2,500 DP level so it would take a lot to get to a higher level that would be of any value. Our usage has been pretty light and we are a few years away from retirement so I think 2,500 should be fine for a while.

Any suggestions much appreciated. I will report back any developments.

 

[kds4]

We bought an Encore at our last trip to HHI in JAN 2016 and are now at HHI Monarch taking the 4 night visit during the Heritage golf tourney. We plan to buy the 100k MR points tomorrow (we were told we could decide on that at the presentation) but don't see the benefit of anything else. Once we do the 90 minute presentation (ugh), we'll get our free cruise certificate and have 18 mos. to schedule it (I think). Will ask lots of questions about that.

I know they'll use the "the $1500 you paid for the Encore will go to waste if you don't apply it to your DP purchase now." Not concerned too much about that.

New locations opening to discuss?

New programs to discuss?

We are at the 2,500 DP level so it would take a lot to get to a higher level that would be of any value. Our usage has been pretty light and we are a few years away from retirement so I think 2,500 should be fine for a while.

Any suggestions much appreciated. I will report back any developments.

So, you own 2,500 DC points or do you own a week that is worth 2,500 DC points?

 

[kds4]

I asked the following question during our most recent owner update presentation and would be curious as to the response you get ...

What plans, if any, are there to leverage the acquisition of Starwood to expand the 'Pulse' brand of MVCI (where they convert a couple floors of a hotel into time-share units) by doing this in Starwood hotels? Since the Starwood timeshare brand was not a part of the deal with Marriott, this is the only way I see a potential timeshare expansion opportunity through Starwood.

Our salesman said this was definitely being worked on ...

 

[jme]

I asked the following question during our most recent owner update presentation and would be curious as to the response you get ...

What plans, if any, are there to leverage the acquisition of Starwood to expand the 'Pulse' brand of MVCI (where they convert a couple floors of a hotel into time-share units) by doing this in Starwood hotels? Since the Starwood timeshare brand was not a part of the deal with Marriott, this is the only way I see a potential timeshare expansion opportunity through Starwood.
Our salesman said this was definitely being worked on ...

GREAT question. This is precisely one of the things that excites me as Marriott looks to expand the Pulse concept,
and it was one of my first thoughts as well when I heard about the acquisition.
It will open up innumerable possibilities which presently aren't in the mix, and it'll no doubt be a huge consideration
for our own personal travel going forward.....and my hope is that it expands quickly in Europe and beyond. Being a
Marriott brand loyalist has never been more exciting, in both the timeshare and hotel worlds.

 

[BigMac]

MVC stated that the cost of their DC points would increase as of 4/1 so please post what the new $ per point number is that they show before the discounts. Just a reminder, should you be tempted, that you can buy points substantially cheaper in the open market than through MVC.

 

[davidvel]

I asked the following question during our most recent owner update presentation and would be curious as to the response you get ...

What plans, if any, are there to leverage the acquisition of Starwood to expand the 'Pulse' brand of MVCI (where they convert a couple floors of a hotel into time-share units) by doing this in Starwood hotels? Since the Starwood timeshare brand was not a part of the deal with Marriott, this is the only way I see a potential timeshare expansion opportunity through Starwood.

Our salesman said this was definitely being worked on ...

I would suggest that timeshare salespeople during a presentation are the last people to ask about future plans for the DC program. There are many TUGgers who consistently monitor investor conference calls and other objective information much more truthful than those that are trying to make you spend tens of thousands of dollars on DC points.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

I would suggest that timeshare salespeople during a presentation are the last people to ask about future plans for the DC program. There are many TUGgers who consistently monitor investor conference calls and other objective information much more truthful than those that are trying to make you spend tens of thousands of dollars on DC points.

Exactly. The salespeople cannot disclose something that is not already available to the public. In other words they have no knowledge than what is already available, so they cannot accurately answer any "new" questions. They just make up answers based on what they think you want to hear.

 

[jpa2825]

So, you own 2,500 DC points or do you own a week that is worth 2,500 DC points?

Sorry. 2,500 DC points. Always Points, never weeks.

 

[jpa2825]

MVC stated that the cost of their DC points would increase as of 4/1 so please post what the new $ per point number is that they show before the discounts. Just a reminder, should you be tempted, that you can buy points substantially cheaper in the open market than through MVC.

Will try to remember to post that. Also, in addition to buying points substantially cheaper outside of MVC (Thanks TUG), I am also very interested in seeing how they respond to the fact that points can be rented when needed (still ~50 cents a point?) to avoid all the annual maintenance fees of buying - even at a reduced rate. In 3 or 4 years, we have never needed more points than we have had available so I've not done it, but I understand from TUG that it is fairly easy to accomplish.

 

[kds4]

Exactly. The salespeople cannot disclose something that is not already available to the public. In other words they have no knowledge than what is already available, so they cannot accurately answer any "new" questions. They just make up answers based on what they think you want to hear.

No argument there. My question was as much psychological as anything else. After they have met with me, and they are in their next sales staff meeting, I hope the salesperson will offer up to their management "Hey, here's an owner question I got today about Starwood/Pulse ..." If enough owners are inquiring about it, maybe it will eventually filter up to an actionable level within the organization.

 

[Clark]

We are at Grande Ocean and when the concierge was trying to talk me into going to a presentation I mentioned my website as part of my turning down the offer. This prompted her to say to me that I should go because the DP program had changed and that now Marriott would buy leftover points from owners who didn't use them all when arranging a DP reservation.

I didn't believe her. But I didn't go to he presentation either. So -- if you are going, feel free to ferret out the truth.

 

[SueDonJ]

I asked the following question during our most recent owner update presentation and would be curious as to the response you get ...

What plans, if any, are there to leverage the acquisition of Starwood to expand the 'Pulse' brand of MVCI (where they convert a couple floors of a hotel into time-share units) by doing this in Starwood hotels? Since the Starwood timeshare brand was not a part of the deal with Marriott, this is the only way I see a potential timeshare expansion opportunity through Starwood.

Our salesman said this was definitely being worked on ...

I would suggest that timeshare salespeople during a presentation are the last people to ask about future plans for the DC program. There are many TUGgers who consistently monitor investor conference calls and other objective information much more truthful than those that are trying to make you spend tens of thousands of dollars on DC points.

Wasn't it just days ago someone posted to TUG that during a sales presentation a rep mentioned future timeshare connections to Starwood properties due to Marriott's acquisition of Starwood, and the majority of responses were that the sales reps can't be trusted to know - or be truthful about - anything at all?

I agree with David that the sales reps aren't the people to ask, rather listen to the conference calls and watch the trends. Since the DC inception it's fairly obvious that aside from build-outs at resorts which had been stalled, MVW has moved away from funding and building new resorts to the Pulse-model of acquiring refurbed inventory from owners of existing hotels. Based on their investor statements I fully expect that to continue (assuming there's not another economic catastrophe) at the same measured pace which is happening now, and it doesn't appear that there are broad legal impediments to it happening eventually at formerly-Starwood hotels.

It's anybody's guess, of course, but I wouldn't assume that the sales reps' guesses would be any more educated than those who pay attention to the investor calls.

 

[davidvel]

... Since the DC inception it's fairly obvious that aside from build-outs at resorts which had been stalled, MVW has moved away from funding and building new resorts to the Pulse-model of acquiring refurbed inventory from owners of existing hotels.

And this is the magical smoke and mirrors approach to a points system. IMO, these Pulse-type properties are not the same quality or standards of what one buys into with timeshare. I know some people like the niche, but I don't think that overall this is what is sold at a points presentation. People see beautiful, giant resorts with fancy pools, luxurious 2BR units with kitchens and dining rooms, at exotic locations like Hawaii, Aruba, etc. (the legacy timeshares.) The allure of timeshare is most often people buying into a "second home." There are thousands of city-based hotels and "resorts" that anyone can rent across multiple brands that are comparable to the Pulse locations, for much cheaper than the cost of the DC points needed for a Pulse. Buying points to go to a hotel in a city is not usually a great choice.

But MVC can acquire these "hotels" for a fraction of the price of building the legacy resorts with their expansive amenities. They then sell the points with the dream of going to the legacy resort. At some point it will get much harder to get those legacy resorts, and purchasers of DC points will be only able to reserve the lesser (IMO) Pulse-type locations. (Unless of course, you spend tens of thousands more to up your status.)

 

[kds4]

At some point it will get much harder to get those legacy resorts, and purchasers of DC points will be only able to reserve the lesser (IMO) Pulse-type locations. (Unless of course, you spend tens of thousands more to up your status.)

This is what we were 'warned' about in our last presentation. "MVCI will continue to change the points required to attain (and maintain unless they continue grandfathering) status levels in the DC points program. They have already changed requirements once and more changes to ownership levels are coming ..."

We were previously told in a separate presentation a couple of years ago that the target population for Chairman level owners is 3% of all owners. Once the Chairman level population exceeds that proportion, MVCI will look to 're-balance' the program by increasing the points required for that and lesser levels. However, the only way I see that working is if they don't grandfather existing owners (as they did in the last program level change). There will always be a certain amount of attrition from the Chairman and other levels within the program due to death, sale, foreclosure/givebacks, etc. However, I doubt that there is enough there to offset the number of 'new' Chairman level owners and keep it at/below 3% (assuming their owner status level numbers aren't 'cooked' and if they are to what degree).

 

[jpa2825]

Nothing remarkable. Very low pressure approach.

$13.52 current point quoted
Claim Starwood acquisition will force more rapid acceleration of point values
Claim our JAN 2016 Encore "froze" the point value at $11.52 if we buy today
Encore minimum is 1,500 points. Discount at 2,000 points (usually only discount at 2,500 points but because we are on an Encore he would discount at 2k)
Apply $1500 from Encore would drop per point price to $10.77
Claim that MVC would buy back points at 65% but not a lot of detail
Asked about MVC buying back unused points in any year and he knew nothing about it
Asked about future Starwood hotels into the Pulse setup and he had no information.

No real pressure to buy points. It was the same guy that presented to us in JAN 2016 (not sure if that is by design, but I thought it was a missed opportunity to hear from a different voice).
Encore / Closer guy was very nice. Didn't push them hard. A few options:

4 day / 3 night HHI trip (bonus day if you check in SUN or MON) to be booked (non-Summer) over the next Year+ is a constant among these (with mandatory presentation) ($500 surcharge for 5.24 - 8.13)

$1499 adds cruise to be scheduled within 1 yr of HHI presentation and taken within 1 yr. of scheduling
$1499 adds 100k MRP
$2199 adds cruise & 100k MRP
$1299 adds 1000 MVC points w/ a 2 yr. use window (added after HHI presentation)
$2199 adds 200k MRP
$2299 adds 1000 & 100k MRP (not sure why there is a premium for the MRP in this package)

We took the $1299 option but could transition to others before we book the next trip. (We'll probably go for either Heritage week again OR May 2018 when kids are still in school and after Spring Break to insure fewer people are here.)

 

[SueDonJ]

At some point it will get much harder to get those legacy resorts, and purchasers of DC points will be only able to reserve the lesser (IMO) Pulse-type locations. (Unless of course, you spend tens of thousands more to up your status.)

This is what we were 'warned' about in our last presentation. "MVCI will continue to change the points required to attain (and maintain unless they continue grandfathering) status levels in the DC points program. They have already changed requirements once and more changes to ownership levels are coming ..."

We were previously told in a separate presentation a couple of years ago that the target population for Chairman level owners is 3% of all owners. Once the Chairman level population exceeds that proportion, MVCI will look to 're-balance' the program by increasing the points required for that and lesser levels. However, the only way I see that working is if they don't grandfather existing owners (as they did in the last program level change). There will always be a certain amount of attrition from the Chairman and other levels within the program due to death, sale, foreclosure/givebacks, etc. However, I doubt that there is enough there to offset the number of 'new' Chairman level owners and keep it at/below 3% (assuming their owner status level numbers aren't 'cooked' and if they are to what degree).

This shouldn't come as a surprise because the governing docs at the DC inception included language that specified status levels are percentage-based, and that MVW had the right to amend status levels without grandfathering/protecting the original status and affiliated benefits of existing owners. What did come as a surprise, to me anyway, was that they did some grandfathering when they refigured the status levels in 2015, five years after the program began.

 

[kds4]

This shouldn't come as a surprise because the governing docs at the DC inception included language that specified status levels are percentage-based, and that MVW had the right to amend status levels without grandfathering/protecting the original status and affiliated benefits of existing owners. What did come as a surprise, to me anyway, was that they did some grandfathering when they refigured the status levels in 2015, five years after the program began.

I don't have a problem with them introducing higher points ownership requirements for certain levels if there is an attendant increase in new benefits that go along with the new requirements. My objection would be to having benefits that I bought into a level to get being taken away unless I buy more points to keep them - as though I am only leasing the benefits (like an apartment) and the rent can be raised whenever the landlord wants. For example, I like the extended banking/borrowing windows. If I am going to lose those unless I buy more points to stay at the level I am, that's a problem. On the other hand, if they want to leave my benefits alone but tell me I am now called this level instead of that level, and the level I used to be is getting new benefits that I don't get unless I buy into that, no problem. For example, in our last presentation we were shown a bunch of new rental houses that are only available to Chairman level owners. At our level, there are also rental houses that we can get, just not those 'new' houses that are reserved exclusively for Chairman level. Add new stuff all you want, and if it is of value to me, maybe I'll buy into it for the new/added benefits. Just don't mess with the benefits I have already paid to have is what I would want to see.

Does that make sense?

 

[x3 skier]

In answer to the original question, What question should I'd ask, how about "Where's the exit?".

Cheers

 

[bazzap]

This shouldn't come as a surprise because the governing docs at the DC inception included language that specified status levels are percentage-based, and that MVW had the right to amend status levels without grandfathering/protecting the original status and affiliated benefits of existing owners. What did come as a surprise, to me anyway, was that they did some grandfathering when they refigured the status levels in 2015, five years after the program began.

I get the principle of this.
What I don't get, if we assume for example for now that the target population for Chairman's level owners is 3% of all owners
is that we know Chairman's level requires 15,000 Points
and Points are now being quoted at $13.52
which means an investment of over $200k
(OK, I know enrolled weeks owners may be buying just enough to raise their level to this threshold)
but do we really believe that enough people are making such major investments as this, especially with attrition rates of those who have been at this level, to make any real increase in the 3% percentage at this level necessitating a re-balance with a hike in the 15,000 Point threshold?
If so, the economy must really be looking up now!

 

[SueDonJ]

I get the principle of this.
What I don't get, if we assume for example for now that the target population for Chairman's level owners is 3% of all owners
is that we know Chairman's level requires 15,000 Points
and Points are now being quoted at $13.52
which means an investment of over $200k
(OK, I know enrolled weeks owners may be buying just enough to raise their level to this threshold)
but do we really believe that enough people are making such major investments as this, especially with attrition rates of those who have been at this level, to make any real increase in the 3% percentage at this level necessitating a re-balance with a hike in the 15,000 Point threshold?
If so, the economy must really be looking up now!

It's the Ritz-Carlton Club members who are really skewing what we would expect to be the norm. They own multiple Weeks that get boatloads of DC Points if enrolled. So despite most of them thinking that MVW has devalued their ownerships by integrating R-C with the DC as much as they've done, there's no denying that for them enrolling is even more of a no-brainer than it is for owners of multi-MVC Weeks. Add them in and you get a lot closer to the 3% (or whatever it is) Chairman's Club metric being reached/surpassed.

 

[dioxide45]

Wasn't it just days ago someone posted to TUG that during a sales presentation a rep mentioned future timeshare connections to Starwood properties due to Marriott's acquisition of Starwood, and the majority of responses were that the sales reps can't be trusted to know - or be truthful about - anything at all?

I agree with David that the sales reps aren't the people to ask, rather listen to the conference calls and watch the trends. Since the DC inception it's fairly obvious that aside from build-outs at resorts which had been stalled, MVW has moved away from funding and building new resorts to the Pulse-model of acquiring refurbed inventory from owners of existing hotels. Based on their investor statements I fully expect that to continue (assuming there's not another economic catastrophe) at the same measured pace which is happening now, and it doesn't appear that there are broad legal impediments to it happening eventually at formerly-Starwood hotels.

I am not sure why you are stating such as fact unless it seems you have ignored the arguments to the contrary in the New Marriott timeshare at Disney? thread. None of us are likely in the position to indicate what would be legal or up to legal challenge or not. While there is no legal impediment from the buying any existing property, regardless of the name currently on the door, MVW certainly didn't need the merger between Starwood and Marriott International to accomplish conversion of any property to Pulse. The real challenge comes to potential dual brand Sheraton/Westin hotels with a Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property. Look at The Westin Kierland Resort & Spa as an example. Say MVW buys a section of rooms from the property owner. They now have a property sitting on the same site as Westin Kierland Villas. I would think it is highly likely that Vistana has at least a booking desk in the hotel to book people on timeshare presentation at Kierland Villas. Would we potentially see a Marriott Vacation Club and Westin Vacation CLub kiosk side by side in the hotel trying to book people on timeshare presentations. As much as people want to see some of the Westin or Sheraton hotels convert units to Marriott Vacation Club Pulse, I certainly wouldn't hold my breath. Of course, this is more a topic for the thread linked earlier in this paragraph.

I agree with David on this one, Pulse is just something they can use to fill the trust with lots of points that they can market to people that want to go mainly on resort vacations to the legacy resorts. The more Pulse properties they add, the higher the imbalance gets and the harder it will be for legacy and DC point owners to use points to book in to those legacy resorts.

 

[SueDonJ]

I am not sure why you are stating such as fact unless it seems you have ignored the arguments to the contrary in the New Marriott timeshare at Disney? thread. None of us are likely in the position to indicate what would be legal or up to legal challenge or not. While there is no legal impediment from the buying any existing property, regardless of the name currently on the door, MVW certainly didn't need the merger between Starwood and Marriott International to accomplish conversion of any property to Pulse. The real challenge comes to potential dual brand Sheraton/Westin hotels with a Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property. Look at The Westin Kierland Resort & Spa as an example. Say MVW buys a section of rooms from the property owner. They now have a property sitting on the same site as Westin Kierland Villas. I would think it is highly likely that Vistana has at least a booking desk in the hotel to book people on timeshare presentation at Kierland Villas. Would we potentially see a Marriott Vacation Club and Westin Vacation CLub kiosk side by side in the hotel trying to book people on timeshare presentations. As much as people want to see some of the Westin or Sheraton hotels convert units to Marriott Vacation Club Pulse, I certainly wouldn't hold my breath. Of course, this is more a topic for the thread linked earlier in this paragraph.

I agree with David on this one, Pulse is just something they can use to fill the trust with lots of points that they can market to people that want to go mainly on resort vacations to the legacy resorts. The more Pulse properties they add, the higher the imbalance gets and the harder it will be for legacy and DC point owners to use points to book in to those legacy resorts.

I didn't ignore any of the arguments but I also mentioned that it will be very surprising to me if Marriott, Int'l does not eventually put its brand logo on every single hotel property that comes under the umbrella. (Similar to what's found on marriott.com if you scroll down to see they're now prominently featuring all of the brands, including the formerly-HOT brands, under the MI logo.) Yes, I do think that Pulse properties will eventually be in at least some of the formerly-HOT properties, although maybe not as you surmise at those which are co-located with Vistana timeshare properties.

 

[kds4]

I am not sure why you are stating such as fact unless it seems you have ignored the arguments to the contrary in the New Marriott timeshare at Disney? thread. None of us are likely in the position to indicate what would be legal or up to legal challenge or not. While there is no legal impediment from the buying any existing property, regardless of the name currently on the door, MVW certainly didn't need the merger between Starwood and Marriott International to accomplish conversion of any property to Pulse. The real challenge comes to potential dual brand Sheraton/Westin hotels with a Marriott Vacation Club Pulse property. Look at The Westin Kierland Resort & Spa as an example. Say MVW buys a section of rooms from the property owner. They now have a property sitting on the same site as Westin Kierland Villas. I would think it is highly likely that Vistana has at least a booking desk in the hotel to book people on timeshare presentation at Kierland Villas. Would we potentially see a Marriott Vacation Club and Westin Vacation CLub kiosk side by side in the hotel trying to book people on timeshare presentations. As much as people want to see some of the Westin or Sheraton hotels convert units to Marriott Vacation Club Pulse, I certainly wouldn't hold my breath. Of course, this is more a topic for the thread linked earlier in this paragraph.

I agree with David on this one, Pulse is just something they can use to fill the trust with lots of points that they can market to people that want to go mainly on resort vacations to the legacy resorts. The more Pulse properties they add, the higher the imbalance gets and the harder it will be for legacy and DC point owners to use points to book in to those legacy resorts.

A scary proposition for existing owner's future access, but unfortunately it is all too plausible.

 

[dioxide45]

I didn't ignore any of the arguments but I also mentioned that it will be very surprising to me if Marriott, Int'l does not eventually put its brand logo on every single hotel property that comes under the umbrella. (Similar to what's found on marriott.com if you scroll down to see they're now prominently featuring all of the brands, including the formerly-HOT brands, under the MI logo.) Yes, I do think that Pulse properties will eventually be in at least some of the formerly-HOT properties, although maybe not as you surmise at those which are co-located with Vistana timeshare properties.

Are suggesting we will see "Westin by Marriott" and "Sheraton by Marriott"? I think that is highly unlikely. They tend to reserve the "by Marriott" for the lower tier brands. It works down, but not up. You won't ever see "Ritz Carlton by Marriott" and Arne has pretty much said that.

 

[Quilter]

Will try to remember to post that. Also, in addition to buying points substantially cheaper outside of MVC (Thanks TUG), I am also very interested in seeing how they respond to the fact that points can be rented when needed (still ~50 cents a point?) to avoid all the annual maintenance fees of buying - even at a reduced rate. In 3 or 4 years, we have never needed more points than we have had available so I've not done it, but I understand from TUG that it is fairly easy to accomplish.

The salesperson you talk to is not the collective "they" of the entire MVC sales department.

Therefore any response you receive regarding the renting of points will merely be the reaction by that single person.

Going into any questions or discussion is a waste of time.