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Does VV give owners any input when setting MF, why is there an increase every year? Is that Normal?

boyblue

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VVP MF has gone up steadily every year since I bought my units. Conventional wisdom back in the day was not to buy developer owned and/or managed TS's but a lot of us ignored convention. Although there's still some value, should we be looking to get out? How is MF determined? Do owners have any input? Is there anything that prevents management from charging whatever it wants?
 

DeniseM

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I have owned timeshares for 20+ years, and the maintenance fees increase every single year.

The board of directors approves the maintenance fees, and in theory they represent the owners.
 

iftravel

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I have owned timeshares for 20+ years, and the maintenance fees increase every single year.

The board of directors approves the maintenance fees, and in theory they represent the owners.
20+ years! How’s your experience of MF increase vs inflation?
 

DeniseM

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MF's are usually higher than the cost of living increase.
 

dioxide45

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Doesn’t the price of everything go up every year. It costs more money every year to maintain the resorts. Just the reality of life and timeshare ownership.
 

davidvel

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Most managed property (timeshare, condo, HOA governed, etc) generally goes up 110% of the cost increases each year. This is because there is an old outdated and unsupported contract model where the manager receives 10% of the underlying budget. There is no sense or basis for this structure, as the manager does no more work to cut a check for the increased expenses than they did the years before.

This archaic model is much like the old listing agent commission structure for properties which was recently defeated through lawsuit. HOAs need to institute similar class action lawsuits nationwide to end this absurd practice.
 

bizaro86

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The other reason TS maintenance fees go up a bit more than inflation every year is that the base property gets a bit older every year. It costs more to maintain an old building than a new one, and every year the buildings get a bit older.
 

davidvel

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The other reason TS maintenance fees go up a bit more than inflation every year is that the base property gets a bit older every year. It costs more to maintain an old building than a new one, and every year the buildings get a bit older.
Properly budgeted MF should account for this from the year first built. Proper budgets include both current expenses and reserve budgets. The reserve budget should include future replacement of necessary items and anticipated major capital improvements over time.

Generally (as we are seeing in Florida with the collapsed condo and resultant laws), the problem is these items are not properly included initially in the budget ( so developer can cite a lower MF), and then this bites the HOA in the behind later. No different than the national debt problem.
 

Eric B

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Most managed property (timeshare, condo, HOA governed, etc) generally goes up 110% of the cost increases each year. This is because there is an old outdated and unsupported contract model where the manager receives 10% of the underlying budget. There is no sense or basis for this structure, as the manager does no more work to cut a check for the increased expenses than they did the years before.

This archaic model is much like the old listing agent commission structure for properties which was recently defeated through lawsuit. HOAs need to institute similar class action lawsuits nationwide to end this absurd practice.
That math doesn't really work out if you think about it critically. If you assume a cost of $1,000 annually as a starting point and a 5% inflation rate, the next year's cost would be $1,050. The initial management fee would be $100. The next years management fee would be 10% of $1,050, or $105, which also happens to match an increase of 5%, which is the inflation rate. The total cost for the years would be $1,100 the initial year and $1,155 the second. $1,155 is a 5% increase over $1,100 if I've done my math properly - yep, my calculator confirms that.

The other reason TS maintenance fees go up a bit more than inflation every year is that the base property gets a bit older every year. It costs more to maintain an old building than a new one, and every year the buildings get a bit older.
This seems a somewhat rational explanation. It could also be related to needing more accommodations for an aging population or the imposition of additional requirements by whatever governing authority decides we need to do more maintenance/improvements.

On the other hand, I've had years where the increase in MFs has been absent despite inflation. And I do own some TS where the increase is baked in - Buganvilias Resort in Puerto Vallarta, for example, has a 5% inflation rate that is contractually specified. YMMV.
 

davidvel

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That math doesn't really work out if you think about it critically. If you assume a cost of $1,000 annually as a starting point and a 5% inflation rate, the next year's cost would be $1,050. The initial management fee would be $100. The next years management fee would be 10% of $1,050, or $105, which also happens to match an increase of 5%, which is the inflation rate. The total cost for the years would be $1,100 the initial year and $1,155 the second. $1,155 is a 5% increase over $1,100 if I've done my math properly - yep, my calculator confirms that.


This seems a somewhat rational explanation. It could also be related to needing more accommodations for an aging population or the imposition of additional requirements by whatever governing authority decides we need to do more maintenance/improvements.

On the other hand, I've had years where the increase in MFs has been absent despite inflation. And I do own some TS where the increase is baked in - Buganvilias Resort in Puerto Vallarta, for example, has a 5% inflation rate that is contractually specified. YMMV.
You got the math right, but the reading wrong. I said 10% of the cost increase, not 10% of the mf. The cost increase in your example is $50, and the management fee increases by $5, which is 10% of $50. If I got my math right.
 

echino

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Owners do not vote on the budget and do not have any input on how maintenance fees are determined.

The directors elected by the owners vote on the budget. The budget is prepared by the management company, and is rubber-stamped by the directors in 99% of cases.

There is no real mechanism for owners to influence maintenance fees in any way, other than getting rid of the timeshare.
 

TUGBrian

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that said, they are obligated to provide a copy of the annual budget every year for all owners to review!
 

Eric B

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You got the math right, but the reading wrong. I said 10% of the cost increase, not 10% of the mf. The cost increase in your example is $50, and the management fee increases by $5, which is 10% of $50. If I got my math right.
We seem to be speaking past each other. I merely chose $1,000 as an easy to use number. It could easily have been $100,000 or $1,000,000. If the underlying budget of $1,000, $100,000, or $1,000,000 goes up by 5% and the manager is getting a 10% fee, the manager's fee will go up by 10% (i.e., the $5 we both calculated). I would be shocked to see a situation where the manager gets a different percentage of the increase than they do of the base budget. I merely assumed that you were referring to a situation where the manager's fee is 10%. If the HOA board at whatever resort you are speaking of has approved a higher percentage of cost increases as the increases for the management fee, they would have set up an incentive system for the manager towards higher costs. Frankly, I would have a difficult time drafting contract language to accomplish that in a manner that would make it seem simple. Have you seen any contract language that would accomplish that?

This is because there is an old outdated and unsupported contract model where the manager receives 10% of the underlying budget.
This is what led me to believe that you meant the manager receives 10% of the underlying budget, by the way. That contract model would support an increase in the management fee of 10% of the cost increase, yielding an overall increase that matches the rise in costs percentagewise. It doesn't really matter if you calculate the management fee by taking 10% of the year 0 underlying budget and add 10% of the cost increase from year 0 to year 1, or take 10% of the year 1 underlying budget, or take the year 0 management fee and increase it by the same percentage as the increase in the underlying budget. They all yield the same result.

There is no sense or basis for this structure, as the manager does no more work to cut a check for the increased expenses than they did the years before.
It is possible that the manager has labor costs that rise from year to year as well as overhead costs, etc. Please don't come away with the impression that I am defending the rise in management fees - I just think we need to be realistic and recognize that inflation affects all of us, including management companies. I did appreciate it when Ft Lauderdale Beach Resort recognized the excessive fees for poorer service from its management company and severed that contract in favor of a different one. I don't think we'll find any management companies out there that will manage for the same bottom line dollar amount that they would 20 years ago.
 

bizaro86

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Properly budgeted MF should account for this from the year first built. Proper budgets include both current expenses and reserve budgets. The reserve budget should include future replacement of necessary items and anticipated major capital improvements over time.

Generally (as we are seeing in Florida with the collapsed condo and resultant laws), the problem is these items are not properly included initially in the budget ( so developer can cite a lower MF), and then this bites the HOA in the behind later. No different than the national debt problem.

Replacement reserves only account for capital type items. I've written reserve fund studies for condominiums - the elevator needing a refurbishment or replacement is a reserve item. But the elevator needing an increased level of regular maintenance when it's 20 years old vs new isn't a reserve item.

Anyway, that's only a single example but there are lots of things like that. The pool pump gets a bit less energy efficient as it ages, etc etc. Lots of things would cost more that aren't reserve items.

I agree that by human nature pretty much all condos under-budget reserves in the early years, so "catch up" tends to be a big factor as well as properties age.
 

Hindsite

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The main reason that maint fees go up more then inflation is that the type of costs that are in the maint fee budget is very different from what is in the consumer inflation figure make-up. You simply aren't comparing like with like so are setting yourself up for disappointment going that route.
More recently this has been particularly different for energy costs as timeshares aren't usually cost controlled in the same way as domestic prices are. Insurance costs similar.
Consumer inflation figures don't usually include labour costs, and timeshares do, I see no reason for employees to have below inflation pay rises, particularly when recruitment and retention are a problem. Timeshare maint fees don't usually include costs of food, consumer inflation does. The list goes on.....
Historically this has meant that timeshare maint fees can rise lower than inflation, but that's much more unusual.
If you want to see whether your management company is keeping things about on track, then the way to do that is to go through the line items in your bill and find the corresponding cost category in inflation or industry data and then build up the budget from 1 year to another. If you find a big gap, follow up to find out why.
 

buzglyd

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The main reason that maint fees go up more then inflation is that the type of costs that are in the maint fee budget is very different from what is in the consumer inflation figure make-up. You simply aren't comparing like with like so are setting yourself up for disappointment going that route.
More recently this has been particularly different for energy costs as timeshares aren't usually cost controlled in the same way as domestic prices are. Insurance costs similar.
Consumer inflation figures don't usually include labour costs, and timeshares do, I see no reason for employees to have below inflation pay rises, particularly when recruitment and retention are a problem. Timeshare maint fees don't usually include costs of food, consumer inflation does. The list goes on.....
Historically this has meant that timeshare maint fees can rise lower than inflation, but that's much more unusual.
If you want to see whether your management company is keeping things about on track, then the way to do that is to go through the line items in your bill and find the corresponding cost category in inflation or industry data and then build up the budget from 1 year to another. If you find a big gap, follow up to find out why.
You are exactly right. The three biggest drivers of cost increases are Labor, Utilities, Taxes.
 

escanoe

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rickandcindy23

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And @boyblue has probably disappeared again for a while.
 

montygz

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VVP MF has gone up steadily every year since I bought my units. Conventional wisdom back in the day was not to buy developer owned and/or managed TS's but a lot of us ignored convention. Although there's still some value, should we be looking to get out? How is MF determined? Do owners have any input? Is there anything that prevents management from charging whatever it wants?
No one wants to pay more but.....

What you don't want to own is a timeshare that keeps maintenance fees so low that the resort goes to hell and no one wants it or wants to stay there.
 
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