DCs and membership numbers

[Kagehitokiri]

thought it would be interesting/useful considering the UR/PE merger..

from helium report and other sources (approx) >

exclusive resorts - 2500+
ultimate resort/private escapes - 1200+
quintess - 400+
high country club - 275+
portofino club - 140+
m private residences - 115+
bellehavens - 100+
lusso collection - 90+
solstice collection - 70+
crescendo - 70+
distinctive holiday homes ~ 20
premier destinations ~ 10

unknown >

ciel club
hideaways club
markers
my global playground
oyster circle
ventures equity vacation club
worldwide private residences lp
yellowstone club world

 

[GOLFNBEACH]

Question...

Would you rather belong to a club with thousands of members that keeps adding properties as they grow...or belong to a small "boutique" club with say 600 capped members in 100 great locations?

 

[Kagehitokiri]

good question - some people seem to go one way or the other.

peresonally, im more interested in the exact nature of the club, and their current roster of homes.

in terms of an actual cap, i guess i kind of like that idea? 3 of the 4 clubs im watching happen to have caps. its not one of the things i really considered much though. which is kind of interesting.

and it is a useful criteria when comparing clubs, regardless. it also might give you an idea of where potential mergers and acquisitions might be.

 

[LTTravel]

Question...

Would you rather belong to a club with thousands of members that keeps adding properties as they grow...or belong to a small "boutique" club with say 600 capped members in 100 great locations?

Even a boutique club wouldn't have 100 locations for 600 members. The economies of scale would make even the most boutique of clubs have at least two if not more homes in one destination, just not 20-40 like ER does. But the answer to that question you pose depends on how many vacations a year and how much variety you like. I have friends who have a TS in Cancun and have been going to the same place for 25 years in a row. I can't get them to try any other place. We went for 5, and like Cancun alot, but we want to try other places. They won't come along with us so we have to experience the new places alone, untill we get new traveling partners.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

going from what LTTravel was saying (demonstrating his point with specific numbers) >


lusso is capped at 550 members / 100 properties

current destinations - 11 (1-2 properties each)
current destinations listed as future - 19

 

[LTTravel]

going from what LTTravel was saying >


lusso is capped at 550 members / 100 properties

current destinations - 11 (1-2 properties each)
current destinations listed as future - 19

Lusso has said that they would like at least two properties per destination. They are very close to two per destination now. When they compare themselves to Quintess, they point out that Quintess has many destinations with only one property, which makes availability more of a problem at the more desireable ones. As you state, if they stick to their plans with about 100 properties and 30 destinations, that is an average of 3.33 per destination.

 

[GOLFNBEACH]

Even a boutique club wouldn't have 100 locations for 600 members. .

Good point. How about something like 600 members with 100 homes in 30 to 50 locations.

 

[vineyarder]

Question...

Would you rather belong to a club with thousands of members that keeps adding properties as they grow...or belong to a small "boutique" club with say 600 capped members in 100 great locations?

Personally, I'd go for more destinations / more choices. When I joined PE, they had a membership cap of 400 (per club), but had already decided to eliminate the cap, as surveys of members showed that they wanted more destinations. Interestingly, after the merger, PE/UR will have 10 more destinations than ER, despite ER having more than twice the number of members...

Another (theoretical) consideration is the impact of a membership cap on customer service, etc. If a club is capped at 600 members, and hits the cap, then are they less likely to worry about pleasing members? After all, if they are at the cap, they no longer need to devote much (if any) resources to sales & marketing... and since if a member wants to leave, they have to wait until another membership is sold... but there is no marketing effort, so no one is waiting to join... and the club doesn't care, since you're stuck in until someone calls up and asks to join.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

ER is taking a building approach of buying/developing 20-30 homes per new location. They are able to use econimics of scale to get the cheapest prices. I think this is nice for a few locations, but not all as it really limits their destination choices.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

speaking of PE/UR vs ER >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=391947&postcount=45

PE/UR
44 destinations 147 properties
30+ destinations 60 hotel properties

ER
34 destinations 370 properties
5 "once in a lifetime" fee-based tours/safaris/cruises

(moved the world > "once in a lifetime" since they charge $450 daily fee)

 

[LTTravel]

speaking of PE/UR vs ER >
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=391947&postcount=45

PE/UR
44 destinations 147 properties
30+ destinations 60 hotel properties

ER
35 destinations 375 properties
4 "once in a lifetime" fee-based tours/safaris/cruises

The structure of UR/PE is still not clear. Based on the information available at present, only PE Pinnacle members, of all the different plans, tiers, whatever, of the two clubs will have access to all of the homes. Even that is not clear. It would not be fair to have PE Pinnacle members have access to all the homes in the portfolio and have UR Elite Platinum members have access to only the highest tier homes. This significantly decreases the number of destinations and properties available to any one memeber, except for maybe the PE Pinnacle member. There are still many questions to be answered about this and what the structure of the club is going to be. It is not fair for the new UR/PE to compare the number of properties/destinations it has, unless all members have access to all the destinations and properties. They MUST make that clear in the advertising!

 

[Kagehitokiri]

again, from the wording it sounds like theyre carrying in reciprocity. even if tier 1 and 2 can only have 1 week of reciprocity, it allows them to say "use every destination/property"

the thing that is really vague IMHO is whether joining now gets you any benefit (whether you stick with plan you join like current members, or eventually get shifted into a new plan)

 

[Steamboat Bill]

I am starting to be of the opinion that the new UR/PE will be a better "top tier" club to join than ER.

 

[whatmough]

I am starting to be of the opinion that the new UR/PE will be a better "top tier" club to join than ER.

I agree. I sounds like ER is out to maximize their real estate portfolio value while UR/PE and also HCC is more interested in maximizing member's travel experience.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

without considering unlimited use for no additional fee, ER does appear to have the highest potential nightly savings, of any DC, at some of their properties. but they also have plenty where its the same / less to book direct.

also splitting the ultra plan 3 ways is cheaper/has more nights than base plan, and allows anyone to use the plan nights - so might be better than a number of other group/corp plans, plus you could theoretically "resell" nights, although im sure its technically prohibited.

overall, after really looking at it, their property portfolio doesnt really impress me though. after quintess builds their private cabo development, ER will no longer be the only one with that either.

oh, one thing - if its true no other club can get properties on The World, that IS another distinct advantage, and a good value in terms of plan nights. their floorplans for the price seem better than the other residential ships.

 

[LTTravel]

again, from the wording it sounds like theyre carrying in reciprocity. even if tier 1 and 2 can only have 1 week of reciprocity, it allows them to say "use every destination/property"

the thing that is really vague IMHO is whether joining now gets you any benefit (whether you stick with plan you join like current members, or eventually get shifted into a new plan)

1. I am not sure they will offer reciprocity for UR members, but you never know. When I had talked to them some time ago, they (UR) said that it didn't make sense. And if the old plans are unchanged, then UR members will not have reciprocity because they don't have it now.

2. The advantage of joining now is that a. they plan a significant price increase after the merge and b. UR currently offers a refund of 80% CV, but that will apparently go away after the merge.

I think that they should have worked this all out prior to announcing the merge. Perhaps they have and are working on the fine details.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

but from what vineyarder was saying, his plan will change somewhat, just not substantially/having things taken away.

 

[LTTravel]

1. overall, after really looking at it, their property portfolio doesnt really impress me though. after quintess builds their private cabo development, ER will no longer be the only one with that either.

2. oh, one thing - if its true no other club can get properties on The World, that IS another distinct advantage, and a good value in terms of plan nights. their floorplans for the price seem better than the other residential ships.

1. I understand that everyone has different tastes, but I think some of their homes are excellent. Certainly, with 375 homes, some are better than others.
The have a development in Vail coming up that has nearly doubled in value (at the base of the Gondola, ski in ski out) before they are even finished, 4 BR at the Esperanza, Real del Mar, homes at Little Dix Bay, Trump (though they sold those), largest homes at Abaco, Tuscany, Costa Rica development, Grand Cayman, Regent Palms in Turks. Sure, I don't like their homes in Jackson Hole, Scottsdale, Bovey Castle, but there's still plenty to chose from.

2. The World, though it sounds great, is not the greated asset. They charge a daily fee of $400 per room in addition to using your alloted days, It is impossible to book and you can only book for one week at a time. If you look at the schedule for The World, you wouldn't want to go to many of the destinations. And over a period of one week, you will make port in two or at most 3 cities. Not like a cruise ship at all. Just a floating hotel. I would still love to try it one day, but I don't think that many ER members benefit from The World.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

what? $400 fee? why is that not mentioned anywhere?? they charge a freaking fee for the seabourn cruises, and they dont even own those... ~$1500 is still better than $3000 though.

my point re portfolio is just that id pick them differently. i personally like DHH's stated selection goals, as well as what ciel, lusso, and WPR seem to have done/planned.

re the savings - little dix and regent palms are actually not available direct, and the top rate direct is ~$5K+ more than what you can get via ER. huge plus if you like the properties. id still personally rather go elsewhere.

 

[LTTravel]

what? $400 fee? why is that not mentioned anywhere?? they charge a freaking fee for the seabourn cruises, and they dont even own those... ~$1500 is still better than $3000 though.

Sorry, the correct number is $300 per night in 2007 and $450 per night in 2008. The monthly maintenance fee on The World is so high (I think around $160,000 per year for a 2 bedroom, mostly due to increased fuel costs), that they started to impose a daily use fee in 2007

 

[LTTravel]

my point re portfolio is just that id pick them differently. i personally like DHH's stated selection goals, as well as what ciel, lusso, and WPR seem to have done/planned.

\.

Lusso just announced a ski in skin out at Aspen Highlands. Available in January.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

ah! still ridiculous considering the fee for seabourn. any idea what it or the other once in a lifetime cost?

 

[LTTravel]

my point re portfolio is just that id pick them differently. i personally like DHH's stated selection goals, as well as what ciel, lusso, and WPR seem to have done/planned.

.

I agree with that. They have 35 homes in Cabo but only 3 in Turks. They have 25 in Scottsdale and only 9 in SoCal. 21 in Costa Rica seems overkill. 30 in Las Vegas and 8 at Bovey Castle? What were they thinking? I'd love the job as acquisition planner. 42 homes on Maui??? I guess they think they will grow into these numbers. I think that I could do a better job.

 

[Kagehitokiri]

indeed, that would be a great job. BUT ER especially is more concerned with buying bulk/cheap. not what id want to do. id be more interested in consulting for ciel/WPR/lusso/DHH.

their private costa rica dev is nice. but yeah, quintess will be doing only ~12 homes (~$48MM) in their dev, as opposed to 21.

 

[LTTravel]

ah! still ridiculous considering the fee for seabourn. any idea what it or the other once in a lifetime cost?

A one week cruise on Seaborn on the Mediteranean in the Summer currently costs $11,000 for two.(3968 Euros per person) (that is a 25% discounted rate. Discounts range from 0-50% depending on time, time booked, projected occupancy, etc) That of course is for an outside cabin, all food and drinks (except specialty wines only) most excursions (except tipping for outside excursions) and all gratuities are included. The food is supposed to be gourmet (including caviar) and alcohol is all top grade. I believe that there is an additional fee for the once in a lifetimes for ER.