Curious about Starwood dolphin and swan

[twinmommy19]

Those properties are Starwood managed but not owned.

Any shot Marriott decides to buy those and/or partner with the current owners to add MVC TS units there?

If this has been asked in another string I apologize. I would think that Marriott will do everything in its power to make this happen, and II would be thrilled to come along for the ride? Would be an insane boost for the destination club.

That would be, in my opinion, a tremendous hit to RCI (and to a lesser extent) DVC. I know there are Disney fanatics out there that rave about the Disney perks of DVC access, but swan and dolphin get the extra hour privileges too. Even if Disney did away with that benefit, I still think those locations would be more appealing choices to most than the non-Epcot or monorail DVC locations. And RCI isn't getting those deposits anymore... Thoughts?

 

[JIMinNC]

Those properties are Starwood managed but not owned.

Any shot Marriott decides to buy those and/or partner with the current owners to add MVC TS units there?

This issue isn't ownership. Neither Marriott nor Starwood own many of their hotel properties - even the ones with Marriott, Westin, or Sheraton signs out front. Almost all hotels now are owned by third party real estate investment groups and they just hire Marriott/Starwood to manage the properties and in most cases pay the hotel company for the right to use their reservation systems and brands on the properties.

I guess it's theoretically possible that after the Starwood acquisition closes, Marriott could do a DC Mayflower style conversion to a portion of the inventory at the Swan or Dolphin, but I think it is unlikely. The Orlando timeshare market is more of a family market, so I think it makes it less conducive to hotel conversions than an urban market like DC.

 

[Bill4728]

Remember that Marriott vacations (the TS company) did not buy Starwood Vacations (the TS system) BUT Marriott hotels bought Starwood hotels. SO there is little chance that the two TS systems will join anytime soon.

 

[dioxide45]

This is from Wikipedia;

Tishman and MetLife own the buildings, but has a 99-year lease on the land from Disney. Disney also receives a share of the hotel's revenues, and has a say in any design or architecture changes to the interior or exterior of the buildings

Given that the owners (not Starwood) don't own the actual land, I highly doubt this would ever come to fruition. Do you think Disney would agree to a competing timeshare property going in to sales on their own property? They also wouldn't be able to deed this inventory to the trust since it is a land lease and not physical real estate. There is plenty of available land in Orlando to put timeshares, I don't see VAC going after a site like this.

I suppose it is possible that VAC could offer some Explorer Collections options at Swan and Dolphin, but I don't see that being a real attractive option for most people visiting Orlando when there are so many other options out there that would be a better use of DC points.

 

[JIMinNC]

Remember that Marriott vacations (the TS company) did not buy Starwood Vacations (the TS system) BUT Marriott hotels bought Starwood hotels. SO there is little chance that the two TS systems will join anytime soon.

This isn't what the OP was asking. Marriott Vacations has acquired/converted a floor of a Marriott-managed hotel - The Mayflower - in Washington, DC to timeshare units in the Destination Club. Once Marriott hotels owns the Swan and Dolphin management contracts, they will essentially be just like The Mayflower (they are Marriott managed hotels that do not explicitly carry the Marriott name in big bold letters - Mayflower is an Autograph Collection property) - so theoretically they COULD do the same thing there - Marriott Vacations could strike a deal with Marriott Hotels to acquire/convert a portion of the Swan/Dolphin hotel to Destination Club units. The separate Starwood timeshare operation would not have to be involved in any way.

But...for all the reasons dioxide45 noted above, it is highly unlikely that a deal such as that could be put together. Explorer Collection options might be a possibility I suppose.

 

[dioxide45]

This isn't what the OP was asking. Marriott Vacations has acquired/converted a floor of a Marriott-managed hotel - The Mayflower - in Washington, DC to timeshare units in the Destination Club. Once Marriott hotels owns the Swan and Dolphin management contracts, they will essentially be just like The Mayflower (they are Marriott managed hotels that do not explicitly carry the Marriott name in big bold letters - Mayflower is an Autograph Collection property) - so theoretically they COULD do the same thing there - Marriott Vacations could strike a deal with Marriott Hotels to acquire/convert a portion of the Swan/Dolphin hotel to Destination Club units. The separate Starwood timeshare operation would not have to be involved in any way.

But...for all the reasons dioxide45 noted above, it is highly unlikely that a deal such as that could be put together. Explorer Collection options might be a possibility I suppose.

I think with the Mayflower is that MVW struck a deal with the property owner, not necessarily Marriott International to acquire a number of the units there. I believe the Autograph Collection properties are independently operated and only a franchise agreement exists between the property owner and Marriott International. Marriott International has little say in the day to day operations of these properties.

So if MVW wanted to put timeshare units at the Swan or Dolphin, they would again have to approach the owners and not Marriott International to reach such a deal.

I think many people forget that Marriott International and Starwood own very few physical properties. Even many that carry their names are not managed by the hotel companies. The property owners pay a franchise fee and the so they can carry the name and sell inventory through the hotel websites.

I think once the deals are all said and done, Marriott International will remain neutral when it comes to both of the timeshare companies carrying their brand names. Both are paying a handsome fee to carry those names. Why would they show preference to Vistana Signature Experiences over Marriott Vacations Worldwide?

 

[JIMinNC]

I think with the Mayflower is that MVW struck a deal with the property owner, not necessarily Marriott International to acquire a number of the units there. I believe the Autograph Collection properties are independently operated and only a franchise agreement exists between the property owner and Marriott International. Marriott International has little say in the day to day operations of these properties.

So if MVW wanted to put timeshare units at the Swan or Dolphin, they would again have to approach the owners and not Marriott International to reach such a deal.

Yes. You are probably correct. I did say "Marriott Hotels" in my post you quoted, but you are correct that the property owner would most likely be the key party in the negotiations. Marriott may have a say and need to be part of the negotiation if the management or franchise contract puts any restrictions on the types of uses permitted on the property, but I did misspeak by writing "Marriott Hotels". I should have said property owner.

In any event, it's probably all an academic argument due to the points you mentioned above in your first post in this thread. I agree Mickey and Minnie would frown upon Marriott competing with DVC on their property.

 

[twinmommy19]

Thanks for the replies! Yes - I was thinking exactly of the Mayflower thing when this question occurred to me. Are the owners of the land tied directly to Disney in any way? In other words, could Disney prevent Marriott from creating timeshare units there if they were to work out an arrangement with the owner?

I agree that Orlando is overbuilt, but where the swan and dolphin are located is completely different and Marriott has to know that. It's like staying ski in / out or not when you take a ski trip and there is a ridiculous premium for that. Right now disney's niche are Disney fanatics who want to stay on property. if that location were a Marriott TS option it changes a lot for Disney. I don't think most people care about access to the meal plan. Swan / dolphin location is really as convenient as beach club or Boardwalk villas to Epcot and Hollywood studios. Walking distance. No non-DVC TS offers that kind of access. It would be a tremendous selling point for the destination club.

 

[dioxide45]

Thanks for the replies! Yes - I was thinking exactly of the Mayflower thing when this question occurred to me. Are the owners of the land tied directly to Disney in any way? In other words, could Disney prevent Marriott from creating timeshare units there if they were to work out an arrangement with the owner?

Disney owns the land and leases it to the owners of the buildings. See the quote in post #4.

 

[Fairwinds]

This is from Wikipedia;



Given that the owners (not Starwood) don't own the actual land, I highly doubt this would ever come to fruition. Do you think Disney would agree to a competing timeshare property going in to sales on their own property? They also wouldn't be able to deed this inventory to the trust since it is a land lease and not physical real estate. There is plenty of available land in Orlando to put timeshares, I don't see VAC going after a site like this.

I suppose it is possible that VAC could offer some Explorer Collections options at Swan and Dolphin, but I don't see that being a real attractive option for most people visiting Orlando when there are so many other options out there that would be a better use of DC points.

I recently read that DVC won't allow trades into their timeshares from other TSs within a given (???) distance from Disney World. So if that's true I'm sure your right about them not welcoming competition.

 

[dioxide45]

I recently read that DVC won't allow trades into their timeshares from other TSs within a given (???) distance from Disney World. So if that's true I'm sure your right about them not welcoming competition.

Yes, there is a regional block in RCI where other Orlando owners can't use their weeks to trade in to DVC. The same block existed in II when DVC traded there.