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Why timeshare values are so low

timeos2

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In all of our many threads about resale, retail, ROFR, buy backs, post card companies and more the basic theme is the large spread between retail - developer pricing for the use of a week or certain number of points in a system - and resale of those exact same use rights (ignoring any trumped up "VIP" or other ripoffs) on the open market.

How can developers successfully sell a vacation opportunity for $20,000 or more (often MUCH more) when, with the smallest effort, a buyer could buy the exact same use for under $5000 (maybe WAY under)? As the annual fees needed to run and maintain these resorts show they are not inexpensive to build or run. The developers are risking big money to create desirable places in good locations with virtually no guarantee of sales success. If viewed strictly as real estate and allowing for the extraordinary costs of sales the original amount a developer asks is not out of line while the resale values are equally out of whack and offer tremendous value to the savvy buyer.

The basic problem is that timeshares are a product searching for buyers rather than a product sought by willing purchasers. In an unfortunate turn developers found success in a sales model that didn't inform and create demand for timeshares but instead uses stealth marketing, hyped presentations and arm twisting to sell what is basically a great idea but at far too high a cost. The incredible success of that effort has been such that even times that never had any real value (mud weeks, off season in highly seasonal areas) were sold along side top value times many with equal ongoing fees. Even in areas that really did have year round value the concentration of far too many units has created depressed values there as well.

The end result is a resale market awash in owners desperate to unload an ongoing obligation they never properly researched and, in many cases, don't reach even the "standard" 50% underlying value. When a week goes on sale it isn't competing with a few others in the specific resort or group but against all resale offers from all resorts - a low bar for pricing that makes getting fair value (a nebulous concept as value is really only what others are willing to offer) for even the best resorts very hard to obtain. The never ending influx of new inventory - which often quickly converts to new resale offers - only helps push prices lower.

The weak attempts to prop up artificially higher prices - all smoke and mirrors that can disappear in a heartbeat, ROFR is one especially poor example - only help developers maintain the illusion that their inflated prices are legitimate while in a free market operating without interference and the steady influx of unneeded new inventory timeshare resales would most likely settle in at the underlying 50% of retail value a good resort seems to represent. But the model isn't likely to change anytime soon so we are stuck with it.

Since we cannot change the model nor raise the bar for resales the only logical thing to do is take advantage of one of the best examples of buyers market that ever evolved as so many here on TUG have figured out. It borders on insanity to purchase at retail pricing unless you fully grasp the loss of capital you will suffer and you feel the extra expense is worth it for the lifestyle an individual resort or system offers despite the high buy in cost. Purchased as a right to a guaranteed vacation at a resort or system you love can certainly be a legitimate approach - but don't be fooled into thinking you'll get the money back out as the likelihood of that is slim (but it certainly has been done in a limited number of cases - it is not the norm no matter what the brand name involved may be).

TUG and other timeshare sites have helped inform many about the value resale timeshares can be as well as the issues with all timeshares (problems with rentals, exchange, rising fees, etc). While there have been discussions about the faulty sales model in the past I think its time we review how we got to this state and how best to make informed choices going forward.
 
In all of our many threads about resale, retail, ROFR, buy backs, post card companies and more the basic theme is the large spread between retail - developer pricing for the use of a week or certain number of points in a system - and resale of those exact same use rights (ignoring any trumped up "VIP" or other ripoffs) on the open market.

How can developers successfully sell a vacation opportunity for $20,000 or more (often MUCH more) when, with the smallest effort, a buyer could buy the exact same use for under $5000 (maybe WAY under)? As the annual fees needed to run and maintain these resorts show they are not inexpensive to build or run. The developers are risking big money to create desirable places in good locations with virtually no guarantee of sales success. If viewed strictly as real estate and allowing for the extraordinary costs of sales the original amount a developer asks is not out of line while the resale values are equally out of whack and offer tremendous value to the savvy buyer.

The basic problem is that timeshares are a product searching for buyers rather than a product sought by willing purchasers. In an unfortunate turn developers found success in a sales model that didn't inform and create demand for timeshares but instead uses stealth marketing, hyped presentations and arm twisting to sell what is basically a great idea but at far too high a cost. The incredible success of that effort has been such that even times that never had any real value (mud weeks, off season in highly seasonal areas) were sold along side top value times many with equal ongoing fees. Even in areas that really did have year round value the concentration of far too many units has created depressed values there as well.

The end result is a resale market awash in owners desperate to unload an ongoing obligation they never properly researched and, in many cases, don't reach even the "standard" 50% underlying value. When a week goes on sale it isn't competing with a few others in the specific resort or group but against all resale offers from all resorts - a low bar for pricing that makes getting fair value (a nebulous concept as value is really only what others are willing to offer) for even the best resorts very hard to obtain. The never ending influx of new inventory - which often quickly converts to new resale offers - only helps push prices lower.

The weak attempts to prop up artificially higher prices - all smoke and mirrors that can disappear in a heartbeat, ROFR is one especially poor example - only help developers maintain the illusion that their inflated prices are legitimate while in a free market operating without interference and the steady influx of unneeded new inventory timeshare resales would most likely settle in at the underlying 50% of retail value a good resort seems to represent. But the model isn't likely to change anytime soon so we are stuck with it.

Since we cannot change the model nor raise the bar for resales the only logical thing to do is take advantage of one of the best examples of buyers market that ever evolved as so many here on TUG have figured out. It borders on insanity to purchase at retail pricing unless you fully grasp the loss of capital you will suffer and you feel the extra expense is worth it for the lifestyle an individual resort or system offers despite the high buy in cost. Purchased as a right to a guaranteed vacation at a resort or system you love can certainly be a legitimate approach - but don't be fooled into thinking you'll get the money back out as the likelihood of that is slim (but it certainly has been done in a limited number of cases - it is not the norm no matter what the brand name involved may be).

TUG and other timeshare sites have helped inform many about the value resale timeshares can be as well as the issues with all timeshares (problems with rentals, exchange, rising fees, etc). While there have been discussions about the faulty sales model in the past I think its time we review how we got to this state and how best to make informed choices going forward.

Well said.
 
How can developers successfully sell a vacation opportunity for $20,000 or more (often MUCH more) when, with the smallest effort, a buyer could buy the exact same use for under $5000 (maybe WAY under)? As the annual fees needed to run and maintain these resorts show they are not inexpensive to build or run.


The developers are risking big money to create desirable places in good locations with virtually no guarantee of sales success. If viewed strictly as real estate and allowing for the extraordinary costs of sales the original amount a developer asks is not out of line while the resale values are equally out of whack and offer tremendous value to the savvy buyer.


The basic problem is that timeshares are a product searching for buyers rather than a product sought by willing purchasers.




The weak attempts to prop up artificially higher prices - all smoke and mirrors that can disappear in a heartbeat, ROFR is one especially poor example - only help developers maintain the illusion that their inflated prices are legitimate while in a free market operating without interference and the steady influx of unneeded new inventory timeshare resales would most likely settle in at the underlying 50% of retail value a good resort seems to represent. But the model isn't likely to change anytime soon so we are stuck with it.


Since we cannot change the model nor raise the bar for resales the only logical thing to do is take advantage of one of the best examples of buyers market that ever evolved as so many here on TUG have figured out. It borders on insanity to purchase at retail pricing unless you fully grasp the loss of capital you will suffer and you feel the extra expense is worth it for the lifestyle an individual resort or system offers despite the high buy in cost. Purchased as a right to a guaranteed vacation at a resort or system you love can certainly be a legitimate approach - but don't be fooled into thinking you'll get the money back out as the likelihood of that is slim (but it certainly has been done in a limited number of cases - it is not the norm no matter what the brand name involved may be).


TUG and other timeshare sites have helped inform many about the value resale timeshares can be as well as the issues with all timeshares (problems with rentals, exchange, rising fees, etc). While there have been discussions about the faulty sales model in the past I think its time we review how we got to this state and how best to make informed choices going forward.


Let me comment on a few paragraphs found above:

1st paragraph---Because buyers tend to be too greedy and seem to always falling for the "ïf it is too good to be true" item;

2nd paragraph---buyers tend to think more emotionally than in savvy ways while on vacation; how and why people make such large long term financial decisions such as buying a timeshare or any other large purchase with so little research and fore-thought blows one's mind; :shrug:


remaining paragraphs---oh, how so true!


frenchieinme :hi:
 
I have always thought that if developers would channel their "buyer incentive" gifts/money into advertising by TV or magazines, they would do better. With big companies like Marriott, Worldmark, Wyndham etc. they could promote multiple resorts in various locations with the same advertising dollars and it ought to be cost effective. I may be wrong, but it seems logical to me.

The second problem with costs/value is that developers build where it is easy to sell, which is not necessarily where members want to go. They find a good tourist location, with a steady stream of buyers, and they'll keep building there forever, as long as the stream of buyers continues. In reality, the current owners don't want more Orlando resorts or Hilton Head Resorts, or Branson resorts. They would rather the developer chose a place where the company doesn't already have any; someplace else that is desireable to vacation.

Those seem to be the biggest factors in the price dislocations: developers get a lot of starry eyed uninformed buyers who can't afford the product, rather than economically targeting buyers who will understand and make proper use of the product. And for the most part, they build where THEY want to build, not where the OWNERS want them to build.
 
Most people when they go to these TS presentations have NO IDEA that there is a resale market for TS and they like the idea when they are there and buy one because of the pitch. When they go to sell it they find out that it is worth only 20-40% of what they bought it for. It's a matter of people being ignorant to resales out there and not intending to buy when they go to these presentations. They then show up and see a nice resort and listen to the poo poo that the resort is telling them(eg. "Your TS will go up in value over the years like other real estate"). They buy into the poop and buy a unit. My sister in law just bought at the Tahiti Village (2 bdrm l/o EOY- $25000). I almost had a stroke when she told me because I have seen every year units there for $8000-10000 resale. It is all about making an informed decision which most people cannot do because of a lack of knowledge.
 
Signboards. Billboards. Posters. Handbills. Etc.

Most people when they go to these TS presentations have NO IDEA that there is a resale market for TS and they like the idea when they are there and buy one because of the pitch. When they go to sell it they find out that it is worth only 20-40% of what they bought it for. It's a matter of people being ignorant to resales out there and not intending to buy when they go to these presentations. They then show up and see a nice resort and listen to the poo poo that the resort is telling them(eg. "Your TS will go up in value over the years like other real estate"). They buy into the poop and buy a unit. My sister in law just bought at the Tahiti Village (2 bdrm l/o EOY- $25000). I almost had a stroke when she told me because I have seen every year units there for $8000-10000 resale. It is all about making an informed decision which most people cannot do because of a lack of knowledge.
Another reminder that more resale billboards might do some good out there in timeshare land.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
Where's That New Timeshare Biz Plan ?

Timeshares may still be just a drop in the vacation-biz industry bucket. But even so, major serious money is involved -- enough so that it's surprising (isn't it?) that Big Business has tried only a handful of ways of making money off timeshares.

Financing Timeshare Development. Commercial banking companies, mainly.

Building & Selling Timeshares. Build'm. Offer freebies. Twist arms. Blow smoke. Sell for big bux & high carrying charges.

Managing & Operating Timeshares. Overlaps partly with Building & Selling Timeshares, but not completely. Money is also made operating & managing timeshares for profit independently of timeshare building & selling companies -- e.g., under contract to owner-controlled independent timeshares.

Brokerage & Clearinghouse For Timeshare Exchanges. RCI. I-I. SFX. DAE. RedWeek-Dot-Com Etc. Also, proprietary "mini-system" exchange systems, overlapping partly with Managing & Operating Timeshares.

Exploiting Owner Dissatisfaction. Up-Front Fee Listing "Services." Postcard Companies.

Is that about it ?

What about a few new wrinkles ?

The Timeshare Channel. On cable & satellite TV, giving timeshare developers adequate opportunity to showcase their latest luxury resorts, but also providing airtime to talking-head shows revealing "inside baseball" knowledge about the secondary market, sales presentations, the truth about timeshare exchanges, how to rent, how to rent out, how to sell, demystifying arcana like ROFR, UDI, RTU, EEY, EOY, points, floating weeks, maintenance fees, etc. Also, RCI-101 & I-I 101.

Think TUG - TV -- straight timeshare program material plus commercials & infomercials.

The idea is to replace market ignorance with at least a measure of market savvy, which -- as it takes hold & spreads -- might lead to pressure on the build-&-sell biz to open itself to straightforward non-armtiwsting sales at reasonable mark-up margins without all that sideshow barker ambiance.

Why not a Wal*Mart style of "new" (i.e., developer) timeshare sales?

Why not a timeshare version of CarMax for resales?

These developments, if they ever come about, will not be motivated by any altruistic desire to stop skinning the suckers. Rather, they will be based on the profit motive, seeking to make huge piles of money by providing consumers an alternative to being skinned as so many of them are under the old biz model.

Or is the timeshare biz such a teeny-weeny niche market that there's no room for the emergence of any Timeshare Wal*Mart / Timeshare CarMax / Timeshare Channel ?

What other enlightened biz plans might 1 day emerge as alternatives to the conventional timeshare biz that we all know & recognize as the butt of so many jokes ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
In all of our many threads about resale, retail, ROFR, buy backs, post card companies and more the basic theme is the large spread between retail - developer pricing for the use of a week or certain number of points in a system - and resale of those exact same use rights (ignoring any trumped up "VIP" or other ripoffs) on the open market.

How can developers successfully sell a vacation opportunity for $20,000 or more (often MUCH more) when, with the smallest effort, a buyer could buy the exact same use for under $5000 (maybe WAY under)? As the annual fees needed to run and maintain these resorts show they are not inexpensive to build or run. The developers are risking big money to create desirable places in good locations with virtually no guarantee of sales success. If viewed strictly as real estate and allowing for the extraordinary costs of sales the original amount a developer asks is not out of line while the resale values are equally out of whack and offer tremendous value to the savvy buyer.

The basic problem is that timeshares are a product searching for buyers rather than a product sought by willing purchasers. In an unfortunate turn developers found success in a sales model that didn't inform and create demand for timeshares but instead uses stealth marketing, hyped presentations and arm twisting to sell what is basically a great idea but at far too high a cost. The incredible success of that effort has been such that even times that never had any real value (mud weeks, off season in highly seasonal areas) were sold along side top value times many with equal ongoing fees. Even in areas that really did have year round value the concentration of far too many units has created depressed values there as well.

The end result is a resale market awash in owners desperate to unload an ongoing obligation they never properly researched and, in many cases, don't reach even the "standard" 50% underlying value. When a week goes on sale it isn't competing with a few others in the specific resort or group but against all resale offers from all resorts - a low bar for pricing that makes getting fair value (a nebulous concept as value is really only what others are willing to offer) for even the best resorts very hard to obtain. The never ending influx of new inventory - which often quickly converts to new resale offers - only helps push prices lower.

The weak attempts to prop up artificially higher prices - all smoke and mirrors that can disappear in a heartbeat, ROFR is one especially poor example - only help developers maintain the illusion that their inflated prices are legitimate while in a free market operating without interference and the steady influx of unneeded new inventory timeshare resales would most likely settle in at the underlying 50% of retail value a good resort seems to represent. But the model isn't likely to change anytime soon so we are stuck with it.

Since we cannot change the model nor raise the bar for resales the only logical thing to do is take advantage of one of the best examples of buyers market that ever evolved as so many here on TUG have figured out. It borders on insanity to purchase at retail pricing unless you fully grasp the loss of capital you will suffer and you feel the extra expense is worth it for the lifestyle an individual resort or system offers despite the high buy in cost. Purchased as a right to a guaranteed vacation at a resort or system you love can certainly be a legitimate approach - but don't be fooled into thinking you'll get the money back out as the likelihood of that is slim (but it certainly has been done in a limited number of cases - it is not the norm no matter what the brand name involved may be).

TUG and other timeshare sites have helped inform many about the value resale timeshares can be as well as the issues with all timeshares (problems with rentals, exchange, rising fees, etc). While there have been discussions about the faulty sales model in the past I think its time we review how we got to this state and how best to make informed choices going forward.

I think the key part of the analysis is that there are a lot of "uniformed" vacationers out there. People on vacation tend to be more willing to spend money than they would at other times and couple that with an aggressive sales person talking fast and throwing around a lot of half truths/lies leads to people paying way more than they should for a timeshare.

However, there are places that have timeshares that hold values mainly because they are underbuilt and highly demanded vacation spots. Winter in the mountains, Summer in Door County/Cape Code, New York City, some of the Hawaiian units, etc. I think a person buying there will find that while they probably still spent more than they should have, they won't see their unit showing up on EBAY for a $1 a month later.

I think the smart buyer, like most experienced tuggers, gets the most out of timesharing for the least amount of dollars. Then again, some get in over their heads and end up having to bail out. I am just hoping that won't be me in 5 - 10 years.

Bill
 
Another way some $$ can be made from timeshares ...

How about a opaque means of renting timeshare and/or condo time along the lines of Priceline? It seems like it would be an easy product for Priceline to add for high supply locations. Since Priceline's 'cut' is their add-on and whatever amount is bid higher than the developer or owner's rental price (which is unknown to the renter) this could be quite profitable for Priceline. They could even offer time at fixed prices like they do for hotel rooms.
I think Priceline has the brand recognition and national reach that all the present distribution channels lack.
 
I think SkyAuction and some of the other rental week sites function more or less like Priceline, actually.
 
People are basically stupid. I mean, really, how many times do we read posts here from those who have already bought and "now" have some questions about how to use or what it even is they bought. Of course, many folks are also dumb about how they buy- they use money they don't have and forget to factor in the cost of actually getting to their vacation destination. So many people I know have timeshares and do not know how to use them, do not use them, and do not understand how to make the best use of what they cannot use (by renting or other means) and they are bleeding money based on their own stupidity. They are lazy and have not educated themselves. Someone I know recently financed an $18,000 purchase of a summer week at a resort in Weston, Fla, for the "free golf." Yah, umhum...:wall:
 
Someone I know recently financed an $18,000 purchase of a summer week at a resort in Weston, Fla, for the "free golf." Yah, umhum...:wall:
I'm not advocating buying from the developer. I certainly would not buy just to get the golf package. I would never finance a TS purchase just for the golf. But then I'm cheap. BUT, golf can be expensive. Some of these golf packages are worth more than the cost of the MF or the rental price. If you had four people who golfed almost every day they were there you would break even over the cost of renting in 12-15 years. It's not too hard to justify that. If it were me, I'd buy resale and find someone selling a golf package. You'd still be 10-12k better off.
 
Why timeshare values are so low ??

There are a lot of paths that this thread could go down given the broad scope of the information and opinion that was offered from the OP following this question.

I'll start by saying that ARDA information on sales is showing that retail prices are rising. I don't have the facts but would love to know what the retail(developer) and resale (owner) percentage of the sales is annually based on number of units sold and average price.

Let me speculate that the "value" the OP speaks of is the perceived portfolio value of a group of timeshares (1 or the many that most tuggers own) and not the perceived "value" of using the timeshares based on the ongoing costs.

Is the portfolio "value" of timeshares trending down? Perhaps. I think the perception given by the eBay sales may be a false one....sort of like using Filene's Basement to judge the value of wedding dress prices.

I think that the only people that could answer this question with any clarity are those that have a great deal of experience with resale?

So how about it, Boca, Spence, and others .... what's the trend look like on the resale side? Do we have any resale brokers that are tug members that could share information?
 
I'm deleting the word, "timeshares," from the below quote. How many other things could be substituted?

People are basically stupid.... So many people I know have ********** and do not know how to use them, do not use them, and do not understand how to make the best use of what they cannot use... and they are bleeding money based on their own stupidity.
:doh: Therein lies the problem. :rolleyes: If the only people who bought timeshares (or other expensive purchases, mostly made on credit) were those who would really use them and enjoy them, there would not be so many wanting desperately to resell and getting bled in the process.

I'll start by saying that ARDA information on sales is showing that retail prices are rising....
ITA! I think one of the reasons that retail prices are going up is because we're seeing more of the development taking place by the big name companies. These companies put in more attractive decor, landscaping and amenities; they know how to market and they cash in on their name recognition. Their higher retail prices elevate the average retail figures. Our culture's willingness to buy luxuries on credit contributes, as well.

Is the portfolio "value" of timeshares trending down? Perhaps. I think the perception given by the eBay sales may be a false one....sort of like using Filene's Basement to judge the value of wedding dress prices.
I agree, again. EBay offers a few gems here and there and we've taken advantage of several! But it often requires wading through a sea of unloadable junk to find them. And the best stuff on eBay still sometimes goes for prices only a little bit lower than what would often be accepted offers on solid listings, IMHO, (occasional steal deals aside). Once in a while, good offers on eBay go for an even higher price than what they're probably actually worth on resale. But overall, eBay does not reflect the whole resale market at large, IMHO.

It still requires a pretty good effort to find specific, high demand timeshare weeks at a fairly cheap price, by the tried-and-true methods of contacting resellers, scouring resale listings online and putting out "wanted" ads. The buyer who "wants it now" is still paying a decent market price for a quality resale - though perhaps not so much at this time of year. Late spring and early summer are better times for that.
 
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