Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[Floridaman76]

Orlando International will probably be torn down and a new shiny set of luxury apartments will be built there. To go along with the thousands of others that have popped up all over the Orlando area the past 10 years.

Yep. Higher end Apartment buildings, car washes, self storage facilities and Amazon warehouses are all they build here anymore.

 

[bizaro86]

Yep. Higher end Apartment buildings, car washes, self storage facilities and Amazon warehouses are all they build here anymore.

Universal just built an entirely new giant theme park and associated hotels...

 

[ecwinch]

Any reason that Kauai Beach Villas is not on the spreadsheet? We would be helpful to the TUG members that own there to see what Wyndham has to say about resort … if you have a chance ask during your call with them. Thanks for your consideration.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Any reason that Kauai Beach Villas is not on the spreadsheet? We would be helpful to the TUG members that own there to see what Wyndham has to say about resort … if you have a chance ask during your call with them. Thanks for your consideration.

It’s not part of these actions and won’t be added to this tracker as a result. Asked and answered previously in this thread - feel free to search KBV within this thread for more details.

There are other threads covering the saga that has been and is KBV already, please don’t muddy up this already unwieldy thread with further posts on this topic. Feel free to post any questions or issues regarding KBV into the threads dedicated for that topic.

 

[e.bram]

The end to deeded seasonal timeshares as we know them where the units are worth more whole condos than timeshare's. Al the BOD has to do is say major renovation is needed and go bankrupt.

 

[e.bram]

No deeded timeshare with a good week and view is worth more than $2000.00 because this could happen anywhere!

 

[e.bram]

This happened to the Wellington Resort Timeshare. Beautiful Resort on the Bay!

 

[Floridaman76]

No deeded timeshare with a good week and view is worth more than $2000.00 because this could happen anywhere!

I don't know that this is a really accurate statement. There's certainly some absolute turd weeks out there, but there's also a lot of weeks people wouldn't sell for $2000.

But what these actions by Wyndham are showing is demonstrating a model for companies to completely exit any remaining weeks models. Potentially people who own a prime week somewhere can be forced out by people no longer interested in ownership or a developer who is tired of a location."

II guess this isn't news, but there's people who own some winter Florida timeshares that use them every year and don't exchange. Maybe as these people "age out", attitudes will change.

I know the summer fixed week people at the two Jamestown, RI have to be pissed about this. Getting 150k CWA points or a few thousand dollars definitely does not make them whole. Some of the fixed week people at Bentley Brook too probably.

 

[hjsweet2002]

Has anyone heard the outcome of Bentley Brook HOA meeting today

 

[gravityrules]

I don't know that this is a really accurate statement. There's certainly some absolute turd weeks out there, but there's also a lot of weeks people wouldn't sell for $2000.

But what these actions by Wyndham are showing is demonstrating a model for companies to completely exit any remaining weeks models. Potentially people who own a prime week somewhere can be forced out by people no longer interested in ownership or a developer who is tired of a location."

II guess this isn't news, but there's people who own some winter Florida timeshares that use them every year and don't exchange. Maybe as these people "age out", attitudes will change.

I know the summer fixed week people at the two Jamestown, RI have to be pissed about this. Getting 150k CWA points or a few thousand dollars definitely does not make them whole. Some of the fixed week people at Bentley Brook too probably.

The end to deeded seasonal timeshares as we know them where the units are worth more whole condos than timeshare's. Al the BOD has to do is say major renovation is needed and go bankrupt.

I'm not a Wyndham owner but this thread is of interest because of the implications for the TS industry beyond just publicly traded TNL and Wyndham owners.
e.bram, your comments come across as somewhat cynical but I think they do merit some discussion. I know this is a Wyndham specific thread and some may not want to consider anything beyond what is happening to their resort or to their TS system, but there is a bigger picture to consider and it will get more attention in this thread than elsewhere. Most 'timeshare industry' posts seem to generate limited responses.

You say the end of deeded seasonal timeshares is near when the condos are worth more as private whole ownership condos. I see your point specifically for legacy condos that need large investments for updates and/or where vacationing patterns have changed and the demand for those properties has decreased. This transition from timeshare to private whole ownership has already happened, and is currently underway in many systems other than Wyndham. HIVC is largely exiting the former Silverleaf properties for both of those reasons. I'm not sure why ARDA seems to minimize this growing trend ... is admitting all things come to an end that hard?

You say no week is worth more than 2K (in maintenance fees) ... plenty of data refutes that generalization, but there's still a point to be made ... many weeks/ownerships aren't worth the ever increasing maintenance fees, particularly for legacy resorts. That means 'ownership' is more of a liability than an asset. Some of these Wyndham liquidations are going to expose just how little an 'ownership' was actually worth ... and even at that they are worth more (at least to TNL and supposedly to owners) dead than alive.

I think it's TBD whether Wyndham's approach is going to 'work' ... and 'who' it may or may not work for ...

 

[e.bram]

Could be the BOD is consorting with real estate brokers to buy it cheap and make some bread in this deal??????????

 

[dioxide45]

Could be the BOD is consorting with real estate brokers to buy it cheap and make some bread in this deal??????????

The real estate agent is earning 4% commission on the sale. The BOD members will receive a payout based on any deeds they own. Just like all the other owners/members in the association. Sometimes we will see in advance of these types of things where BOD members and their friends may buy up weeks. This may happen if there is a higher likelihood of a larger residual payout per interval. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

[e.bram]

The real estate agent is earning 4% commission on the sale. The BOD members will receive a payout based on any deeds they own. Just like all the other owners/members in the association. Sometimes we will see in advance of these types of things where BOD members and their friends may buy up weeks. This may happen if there is a higher likelihood of a larger residual payout per interval. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

They may have a side deal with RE agent for good price (below market)!(behind the scene)

 

[dioxide45]

They may have a side deal with RE agent for good price (below market)!(behind the scene)

Would that be legal?

 

[bizaro86]

They may have a side deal with RE agent for good price (below market)!(behind the scene)

If someone wanted to do that Chapter 11 (and its oversight by a judge) wouldn't be the best way to go about it.

Hilco(a large/prestigous brokerage firm) will present offers to the judge along with a recommendation. Neither of them will have any incentive to take a low-ball related party offer.

 

[shawnee83]

Could be the BOD is consorting with real estate brokers to buy it cheap and make some bread in this deal??????????

I wouldn't rule it out, but one reason I don't think so is that there seems to be one real estate firm involved in numerous resorts, with numerous BOD/HOA's, across the industry. That's a lot of moving parts.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Could be the BOD is consorting with real estate brokers to buy it cheap and make some bread in this deal??????????

So your theory is that filing chapter 11 bankruptcy in a federal court, which is overseen by both an independent appointee, and the bankruptcy judge, is somehow going to result in an underhanded deal?

OFFICIAL MODERATOR POST

The conspiracy theories based on political ramblings will stop now since they directly violate forum rules, or the content moderation and public warnings will start. Hopefully that is clear enough for all to avoid heading down this path from this point forward.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I'm not a Wyndham owner but this thread is of interest because of the implications for the TS industry beyond just publicly traded TNL and Wyndham owners.
e.bram, your comments come across as somewhat cynical but I think they do merit some discussion. I know this is a Wyndham specific thread and some may not want to consider anything beyond what is happening to their resort or to their TS system, but there is a bigger picture to consider and it will get more attention in this thread than elsewhere. Most 'timeshare industry' posts seem to generate limited responses.

You say the end of deeded seasonal timeshares is near when the condos are worth more as private whole ownership condos. I see your point specifically for legacy condos that need large investments for updates and/or where vacationing patterns have changed and the demand for those properties has decreased. This transition from timeshare to private whole ownership has already happened, and is currently underway in many systems other than Wyndham. HIVC is largely exiting the former Silverleaf properties for both of those reasons. I'm not sure why ARDA seems to minimize this growing trend ... is admitting all things come to an end that hard?

You say no week is worth more than 2K (in maintenance fees) ... plenty of data refutes that generalization, but there's still a point to be made ... many weeks/ownerships aren't worth the ever increasing maintenance fees, particularly for legacy resorts. That means 'ownership' is more of a liability than an asset. Some of these Wyndham liquidations are going to expose just how little an 'ownership' was actually worth ... and even at that they are worth more (at least to TNL and supposedly to owners) dead than alive.

I think it's TBD whether Wyndham's approach is going to 'work' ... and 'who' it may or may not work for ...

To be clear, it's not Wyndham's approach. It is an approach used many times by the reputable representative law firm (K&L Gates) in concert with a reputable real estate firm (Hilco). While it may or may not have been used within the timeshare industry prior, my point is that this same approach has been used in other real estate transactions successfully by the law firm and real estate firm involved. I do agree that until the bankruptcy processes play out, we won't know for certain, but the legal precedents for this approach seem to be already established from what we have learned. Precedence matters from a legal standpoint.

The value of the property item is interesting. As a landlord, I'm familiar with how rental properties are valued using different calculations vs traditional residential homes which always use a market based approach, such as PV=NOI/CR or GRM=PV/GRI for example. While timeshare is deeded ownership, the MFs are in essence, similar to paying rent for a week. It is entirely possible that the valuation of timeshare real estate is not the same as other commercial real estate valuations on some level, though this is purely theoretical to be clear.

 

[timeshare trader]

I don't know that this is a really accurate statement. There's certainly some absolute turd weeks out there, but there's also a lot of weeks people wouldn't sell for $2000.

But what these actions by Wyndham are showing is demonstrating a model for companies to completely exit any remaining weeks models. Potentially people who own a prime week somewhere can be forced out by people no longer interested in ownership or a developer who is tired of a location."

II guess this isn't news, but there's people who own some winter Florida timeshares that use them every year and don't exchange. Maybe as these people "age out", attitudes will change.

I know the summer fixed week people at the two Jamestown, RI have to be pissed about this. Getting 150k CWA points or a few thousand dollars definitely does not make them whole. Some of the fixed week people at Bentley Brook too probably.

The industry is in trouble. For the exchange companies the most valuable members are those that own legacy weeks resorts. The exchange rate is very high. The companies gain the majority of their new members from the Wyndhams/Marriott/Hilton points based clubs and the Mexico/Caribbean all-inclusive clubs. Both segments have a low exchange rate within RCI. So many HOA resorts kicked the deveoper out the first moment they could and the reality is that once a resort stops sales they are in a slow death cycle as dying members are not replaced with new owners. It is sad.

 

[schreff]

To be clear, it's not Wyndham's approach. It is an approach used many times by the reputable representative law firm (K&L Gates) in concert with a reputable real estate firm (Hilco). While it may or may not have been used within the timeshare industry prior, my point is that this same approach has been used in other real estate transactions successfully by the law firm and real estate firm involved. I do agree that until the bankruptcy processes play out, we won't know for certain, but the legal precedents for this approach seem to be already established from what we have learned. Precedence matters from a legal standpoint.

The value of the property item is interesting. As a landlord, I'm familiar with how rental properties are valued using different calculations vs traditional residential homes which always use a market based approach, such as PV=NOI/CR or GRM=PV/GRI for example. While timeshare is deeded ownership, the MFs are in essence, similar to paying rent for a week. It is entirely possible that the valuation of timeshare real estate is not the same as other commercial real estate valuations on some level, though this is purely theoretical to be clear.

In reference to your first paragraph, has there been a legal precedence for Wyndham's actions and inactions thus far or are we in untested territory? This is the most important factor in the entire thread. Has Wyndham's legal staff, K&L Gates and Hilco ventured into all the twist and turns of the Wyndham timeshare maze which Wyndham created specifically?
These are legal questions which you brought up here and quite frankly I don't know how they can legitimately be separated. This is the big picture. Precedence does matter, legally and materially.

 

[HitchHiker71]

In reference to your first paragraph, has there been a legal precedence for Wyndham's actions and inactions thus far or are we in untested territory? This is the most important factor in the entire thread. Has Wyndham's legal staff, K&L Gates and Hilco ventured into all the twist and turns of the Wyndham timeshare maze which Wyndham created specifically?
These are legal questions which you brought up here and quite frankly I don't know how they can legitimately be separated. This is the big picture. Precedence does matter, legally and materially.

Happy to engage in a legal debate on this topic, but please do so in the following dedicated thread for this topic: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/c...ngoing-wyndham-resort-closure-actions.377729/

Please do not do so in this thread moving forward per moderator rules previously established.

 

[gravityrules]

As previously mentioned, some of these Wyndham locations (and others in HIVC) seem to be victims of 'changes in vacationing patterns'. The demand for getaways to the countryside seems to have declined (unless there are other draws nearby).

I came across this mini-documentary on the Catskills that is representative of this concept. Just amazes me how something this large went into decline and collapse.

Go further back in time and there are many examples across the country of failed resorts/development around hot springs.

Just some examples from history ...

 

[bnoble]

the Catskills

The Catskills has another problem---most of the properties there were tired (to put it charitably)---and that was 20 years ago.

 

[Arimaas]

As previously mentioned, some of these Wyndham locations (and others in HIVC) seem to be victims of 'changes in vacationing patterns'. The demand for getaways to the countryside seems to have declined (unless there are other draws nearby).

I came across this mini-documentary on the Catskills that is representative of this concept. Just amazes me how something this large went into decline and collapse.

Go further back in time and there are many examples across the country of failed resorts/development around hot springs.

Just some examples from history ...

Thanks for sharing. I grew up going to the Catskills from the City every summer (and winter).

There’s a Prime documentary on the Kutchers hotel.

 

[dioxide45]

The Catskills has another problem---most of the properties there were tired (to put it charitably)---and that was 20 years ago.

The video in the post above yours shows many that are flat out abandoned and the decline started in the 60s. Are there still timeshares in the Catskills?