Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[Roger830]

My whole life I have lived about 100 miles from both Boston and NYC.
I have made many day trips and overnight stays in both cities.

In Boston I watched 'Rumble in the Jungle" between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman in the upper level of Cheers club from the TV show plus have been to other clubs including some in the now gone 'combat zone.' Seen the historic sites, Red Sox games and horse races. The last time I was there about 10 years ago, got stuck in traffic going to a wedding. Don't care to go back.

I've been going to NY since an 8th grade bus trip to the UN building and ate at the Automat (see link). The teacher told us that was the future for restaurants. About 7 years later rode the subway from mid-town to Coney Island and went on the parachute jump. I have made many day trips and over night stays over the decades. We have stayed at Wydham about six times, once two days the rest one. I haven't been back since 2018 when we stayed one night in late November and saw the Rockets. I've been there so many times that only one day is enough so probably won't be using Wyndham again.

https://www.historyassociates.com/w...ow-an-Automat-Works-Horn__Hardart_automat.jpg

 

[paxsarah]

And the Atlanta location does have spacious kitchens, it has a really nice pool area, and the owner lounge is distinguished by its service. Yes, it has hall laundry rooms, but I’ve used them and it’s fine. I actually don’t mind having fewer amenities, well executed, that are just an elevator ride away - as compared to a schlep across a sprawling complex.

 

[Rolltydr]

I have not been to the Atlanta resort, but one thing that's typical of most urban core "resorts" is they have virtually no amenities. Exceptions would be La Cascada, National Harbor, maybe ATL, I don't know. The footprint just doesn't allow it. At some point these potential urban locations are just glorified hotels with a little more space. A good hunk of the urban core resorts have at best a partial kitchen. There's a few obvious exceptions.

Destination vacation in Philly or Boston (or ATL)? Really? Been to all those places, You say young people want that, really? Which young people? The broke single ones without kids? I got 2 GenZ kids, neither of them have kids yet, but I also don't see them or their helicopter parent to be partners dragging their potential kids through the streets of... philly. And while I did take the family to Boston a time or two, the last time in 2018 we took the "T" around town and on one of the trips a homeless guy urinated and a literal stream of pee went flowing down the aisle inbetween the seats as the car came to a halt. Pretty gross.

Speaking for myself, that's certainly not what I bought into. And if the requirement all of a sudden is "high occupancy yearround", you have Florida and... Florida, and I guess Southern California, maybe parts of Arizona. Are you now ruling out 90% of the country?

Anyway, we are losing 10-12 dots, and still no word on any sort of replacement,. That's contraction.

You do realize that a lot more people do live in and visit big cities, right? That’s how they became big cities. They have a lot of people there, many more people than rural Tennessee and rural parts of the northeast. More people. More things to do, go and see. Philadelphia is a wonderful city, full of American history. It would be a wonderful place to take kids. Same for Boston and NYC. Not to get gross and bring this thread down any more than you already have, but do you think people in rural areas don’t relieve themselves outdoors in the woods, on their farms, on golf courses? They do it all the time but there’s nobody there to see them in most cases. Also, it wouldn’t be at all surprising if that person you were so grossed out by was an American military veteran suffering with mental health issues. Mentally healthy people do not choose to live on the streets and in those conditions They are there because they are ill and don’t have anywhere else to go.

 

[Arimaas]

My whole life I have lived about 100 miles from both Boston and NYC.
I have made many day trips and overnight stays in both cities.

In Boston I watched 'Rumble in the Jungle" between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman in the upper level of Cheers club from the TV show plus have been to other clubs including some in the now gone 'combat zone.' Seen the historic sites, Red Sox games and horse races. The last time I was there about got stuck in traffic going to a wedding. Don't care to go back.

I've been going to NY since an 8th grade bus trip to the UN building and ate at the Automat (see link). The teacher told us that was the future for restaurants. Ten years later rode the subway from mid-town to Coney Island and went on the parachute jump. I have made many day trips and over night stays over the decades. We have stayed at Wydham about six times, once two days the rest one. I haven't been back since 2018 when we stayed one night in the winter and saw the Rockets. I've been there so many times that only one day is enough so probably won't be using Wyndham again.

https://www.historyassociates.com/w...ow-an-Automat-Works-Horn__Hardart_automat.jpg

I grew up on Coney Island. But the parachute jump was closed in my day

 

[jp10558]

Owner occupancy, and Wyndham owning more intervals than they had hoped to is two entirely different things. At least how I interpreted that to mean was "occupants are guests of owners", not necessarily inventory Wyndham owns through deedbacks or foreclosures being rented on RCI or Extra Holidays. Maybe my assumption was wrong.

I can't really see why Wyndham would care about whether "owners" or "owner guests" were there if the MFs are being paid. I thought one of the lines of argument on this thread was that the large "Wyndham savings" came from not MFs they were paying on the intervals owned by them.

If it's just "Wyndham owns too much inventory at locations it can't sell", that sounds like a free market issue and they can certainly resolve that by lowering their prices at some of these locations.

Presumably they didn't want to do that for various reasons.

High MF isn't keeping people away from actively buying expensive MF locations like Glacier Canyon, Bonnet Creek, Ocean Walk and any other number of locations with high MF

Probably those are more desirable locations? IDK how the MF rates is figured out.

 

[hjsweet2002]

Where will I spend Thanksgiving next year. We have spent the last 13 Thanksgiving at Bentley Brook. Hate traveling distance in the winter

 

[jp10558]

I would certainly use dots in Philly and Boston. Philly is an hour away and our elder son currently lives in south Philly. Boston is a 5-6 hour drive or Amtrak train ride away as well.


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The problem with the cities (for me) is the units are often as expensive as hotels but only sleep 2 people. I.e. the one place where TSs don't really get you a good deal IMO. I originally toured "the district" HGVC in DC and wasn't very impressed because I don't need a super fancy studio that doesn't even have a pull out couch. Nah, I'll book hotels and "rough" it.

 

[jp10558]

At some point these potential urban locations are just glorified hotels with a little more space. A good hunk of the urban core resorts have at best a partial kitchen.

100% my lack of interest in most. Now if they pull off stuff like La Belle Maison (and add a real range - I have no idea why that place doesn't have them - they have space) I'd be way more interested, though probably not at whatever insane modern cost would be - I'll bet 700,000pts for a 2BR week.

Destination vacation in Philly or Boston (or ATL)? Really?

Well, I'm currently "Destination" in Philly for the flower show. I'm only staying one weekend cause hotels, but I could see staying a week if it was a low TS cost, they go that whole time.

Been to all those places, You say young people want that, really? Which young people?

I can imagine anyone interested in any of a plethora of cons - now IDK about Philly or Boston, but NYC has their comic con, they had their hacker con, they have probably a million different ones. Many of these are 3+ days long and plenty of people want to go. If I was wanting to go to the con every year, an "event week" purchase might look compelling. Even if I'm just buying for booking priority, that could be compelling, as long as the con schedules out far enough. If I was someone who went to NYC for comic con one time, I could well see wanting days around it to explore the city. I easily spent 4+ days in NYC every year just before Christmas from 2016-2019 (COVID stopped this tradition, mixed with TS trips to new places) seeing the displays, doing shopping, seeing the Rockettes etc. In 2023 I spent a week in London in mid November and had a bajillion things to do and would go back if I could get better prices. People do like cities.

The broke single ones without kids?

Well, these probably aren't the targets for TS at all so . . .

Speaking for myself, that's certainly not what I bought into. And if the requirement all of a sudden is "high occupancy yearround", you have Florida and... Florida, and I guess Southern California, maybe parts of Arizona. Are you now ruling out 90% of the country?

I still have various doubts about it needing to be "high owner occupancy" but I have regularly seen it needs to run at 80% occupancy... though I assume that's actually 80% MF or equivalent payments. I used to have absentee roomates in college - I didn't care if they never were in the apartment as long as they paid 50% of the rent. I can't fathom why they did that, but I also can't fathom a TS caring more than I did if the bills were paid the same.

 

[Twenty20]

Owner occupancy, and Wyndham owning more intervals than they had hoped to is two entirely different things. At least how I interpreted that to mean was "occupants are guests of owners", not necessarily inventory Wyndham owns through deedbacks or foreclosures being rented on RCI or Extra Holidays. Maybe my assumption was wrong.

If it's just "Wyndham owns too much inventory at locations it can't sell", that sounds like a free market issue and they can certainly resolve that by lowering their prices at some of these locations.

High MF isn't keeping people away from actively buying expensive MF locations like Glacier Canyon, Bonnet Creek, Ocean Walk and any other number of locations with high MF

The market price of a Wyndham timeshare is $0. So no.

The entire business model is about driving traffic to resorts and selling something worth $0 for much more than $0. The buyers have no clue what they are buying, and certainly aren't paying attention to MFs at Bonnet Creek, etc vs some other random Wyndham property in the middle of Tennessee that they'll never visit.

Easy enough to get people in the door at more modern resort at the beach or next to Disney. Not so much at many of these other places.

 

[Twenty20]

What "clear" evidence do you have to support this claim?


Age, infrastructure, etc., is exactly why resorts like Orlando International Resort Club are on the chopping block.


There are a number of posts in this thread indicating that there are plenty of guests at these resorts (new blood) for those resorts with sales operations. Skyline Tower is a prime example. The resorts are on the chopping block due to a lack of owner occupancy, not overall occupancy.

Common sense. If Wyndham was selling inventory at these places they wouldn't be pulling out. FF Glade doesn't have infrastructure issues. It's a very well maintained retirement community with a very active local community club.

The units are not outdated.

The resort amenities are not outdated, in fact many are very new.... They are all owned by the local community club and timeshare guests are just permitted to use them.

They are pulling out because they can't get enough new suckers to show up to buy their $0 value product for $10k or whatever made up number they come up with.

 

[bnoble]

A thought.

This is not the first time we've seen resort closures/removals, and when they happen the points associated with that resort go poof. If those points were developer-coded and happened to have pushed you over a VIP threshold, you also lose that VIP level.

This is a (very small) argument for CWA over deeded. With CWA, it would not matter if resorts come and go, becuase your ownership isn't tied to any particular one of them. This is probably not enough to outweigh CWA's average-to-above-average fees, but still.

 

[Arimaas]

A thought.

This is not the first time we've seen resort closures/removals, and when they happen the points associated with that resort go poof. If those points were developer-coded and happened to have pushed you over a VIP threshold, you also lose that VIP level.

This is a (very small) argument for CWA over deeded. With CWA, it would not matter if resorts come and go, becuase your ownership isn't tied to any particular one of them. This is probably not enough to outweigh CWA's average-to-above-average fees, but still.

I am actually wondering if Wyndham would go to complete CWA going forward, as opposed to deeded at a specific location. Would prevent a lot of these issues from the future. Is that even possible?

 

[comicbookman]

I am actually wondering if Wyndham would go to complete CWA going forward, as opposed to deeded at a specific location. Would prevent a lot of these issues from the future. Is that even possible?

Wyndham can add any of the deeds it owns (which is what it sells) to CWA that it wants. It could go to only selling CWA, but being able to tell people they are buying a deed rather than a membership probably appeals to about a significant portion of its target audience.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I am actually wondering if Wyndham would go to complete CWA going forward, as opposed to deeded at a specific location. Would prevent a lot of these issues from the future. Is that even possible?

Many other TS systems do so, like Worldmark The Club. There are no deeded property ownerships in Worldmark to the best of my understanding. Many other TS systems have moved to non-deeded models over time, similar to CWA. It's not just CWA either, there's several other similar ownerships in Club Wyndham that are trust based such as the Club Wydham Prefer trusts. This is likely an indication of the future since taking this approach obfuscates the headaches of having to manage owner-based deed transfers, foreclosures, etc., via the court/county systems within which the resorts are located. Wyndham would own all of the deeds and simply sell trust-based ownerships that provide an average MF based upon the deeds held by the trust and/or the entity that actually holds the deeds on behalf of the trust(s).

 

[Arimaas]

Wyndham can add any of the deeds it owns (which is what it sells) to CWA that it wants. It could go to only selling CWA, but being able to tell people they are buying a deed rather than a membership probably appeals to about a significant portion of its target audience.

Do you think so? I think the majority of people buying in have no idea what they are buying and they could sell them a bridge in one of those meetings.

 

[CO skier]

Where will I spend Thanksgiving next year. We have spent the last 13 Thanksgiving at Bentley Brook. Hate traveling distance in the winter

Plan ahead and book Thanksgiving at one of the RCI resorts in the area. There is always a lot of availability at Vacation Village in the Berkshires or Berkshire Mountain Lodge; maybe there are 2 bedrooms available 8-12 months in advance, if you need that. At this late date, Thanksgiving week is still available at both resorts in a 1 bedroom through RCI Extra Vacations at costs below maintenance fees at BB.

 

[Sandi Bo]

Do you think so? I think the majority of people buying in have no idea what they are buying and they could sell them a bridge in one of those meetings.

And then how would they sell all those people that have CWA deeded memberships so they can lower their maintenance fees?

 

[comicbookman]

Do you think so? I think the majority of people buying in have no idea what they are buying and they could sell them a bridge in one of those meetings.

While I agree, being able to say you own a deed, just like your house, i believe still has an appeal to many.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Do you think so? I think the majority of people buying in have no idea what they are buying and they could sell them a bridge in one of those meetings.

Well, if whenever we attend sales updates, and the presenter asks how many people know what they own, by shows of hands, it often seems like maybe 50% of the people in the room actually know what they own. Could just be some folks don't wanna raise their hands no matter what, so it's an anecdotal observation for sure, but it shocks me how many people in the sales update meetings don't seem to know what they own really.

 

[jp10558]

Common sense. If Wyndham was selling inventory at these places they wouldn't be pulling out. FF Glade doesn't have infrastructure issues. It's a very well maintained retirement community with a very active local community club.

The units are not outdated.

The resort amenities are not outdated, in fact many are very new.... They are all owned by the local community club and timeshare guests are just permitted to use them.

They are pulling out because they can't get enough new suckers to show up to buy their $0 value product for $10k or whatever made up number they come up with.

But doesn't all this assume that Wyndham makes so little money from management fees that's it's worthless to them? I don't think that's true, from what I recall from TUG (though this may be HGVC, it's somewhat comparable) looks at financial statements that they often make 1/3 of their revenue on management fees. Now sure, that's not the majority, but I hesitate to think they really completely disregard 1/3! I still think the issue is they can't move defaulted weeks or weeks they took back at these locations so it's a money pit that way. And it's unbalanced in CWA too - no very few are booking the CWA weeks at the resort so it doesn't help spread out the load, plus at least according to them it's rising the CWA average so making that less compelling also.

I don't know for sure, but I can easily think there could be compelling resorts that aren't great sales locations, and great sales locations that might not be that compelling. For instance I don't doubt that Bonnet Creek is a great sales resort. It's just not likely to be a compelling resort for me to spend points to stay in because a) it often has extra vacations inventory and b) Orlando so ... yea.

 

[dioxide45]

Well, if whenever we attend sales updates, and the presenter asks how many people know what they own, by shows of hands, it often seems like maybe 50% of the people in the room actually know what they own. Could just be some folks don't wanna raise their hands no matter what, so it's an anecdotal observation for sure, but it shocks me how many people in the sales update meetings don't seem to know what they own really.

It could also be that some people think they know what they own but when you start talking with them they really don't have any idea.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Plan ahead and book Thanksgiving at one of the RCI resorts in the area. There is always a lot of availability at Vacation Village in the Berkshires or Berkshire Mountain Lodge; maybe there are 2 bedrooms available 8-12 months in advance, if you need that. At this late date, Thanksgiving week is still available at both resorts in a 1 bedroom through RCI Extra Vacations at costs below maintenance fees at BB.

View attachment 114881

Yep, and who knows, perhaps BB will simply transition into another timeshare system, we don't know either way yet, so it's at least possible that BB may still be available via RCI even after this all plays out. Only time will tell of course.

 

[jp10558]

Wyndham can add any of the deeds it owns (which is what it sells) to CWA that it wants. It could go to only selling CWA, but being able to tell people they are buying a deed rather than a membership probably appeals to about a significant portion of its target audience.

I would want a membership to be cheaper than a deed, but then again, none of it makes sense retail so probably doesn't matter.

 

[Arimaas]

And then how would they sell all those people that have CWA deeded memberships so they can lower their maintenance fees?

Oh easy. You need to have buy a minimum of X number of points before these changes come down at the end of the year, otherwise you will get locked out of using what you have and you'll never get a booking.

 

[comicbookman]

Oh easy. You need to have buy a minimum of X number of points before these changes come down at the end of the year, otherwise you will get locked out of using what you have and you'll never get a booking.

Thats a harder sell when its all a membership. Having deeds lets them play the 2 types of membership off against each other, like Sandi said. The things are going to change for a membership is a more complex argument because they have to explain how it won't happen at the next level next year and so on.