Anyone bought Riviera resale just for Riviera?

[iftravel]

We were at BoardWalk and took SkyLine to stray around and found the Riviera area so lovely.

Anyone here bought Riviera just for Riviera? The resale restriction is annoying but the price is more or less reasonable. Not sure if it can go even lower but guess if I am patient I could get some real good deal just because of less buyers!

 

[kanerf]

Yup, I bought a resale to add to my retail contracts. Oh, no, I have to stay at the Riviera

 

[DanCali]

"more or less reasonable" is a very subjective thing.

The "value" consists of (i) the ability to book the home resort at 11 months out and (ii) the ability to trade into other DVC resorts. A BLT contract for example, derives value from both components. The option to trade into other resorts is worthless for a resale Riviera contract, so how much do you value booking RIV at 11 months out? The answer to that will differ based on who the buyer is - someone who already owns Riviera direct (can already trade into other DVC resorts) and wants more, cheaper, home resort points to use every year in high demand periods? Someone who has direct or grandfathered contracts and can already book RIV at 7 months out? Or an all-resale owner who can't book it at all?

We fall in the category of "hybrid" (non-RIV direct+resale) owners. I can reserve Riviera at 7 months out and am ok with that. I may not get the cheapest rooms with the parking lot views, but getting a room there is not a problem and also plenty of owners switch out to cheaper places at 7 months out. So, personally, I wouldn't pay current resale prices for a one-resort contract. But if I couldn't book Riviera at all I might feel different about it and willing to pay more. We do like the resort a lot.

In the end, the "price" will be set by supply and demand, but I don't think current supply is really reflective of "steady state" with the resort being open just 4-5 years. As supply grows, I suspect prices have more to fall. Until that happens, prices will be set by those who value the resort the most (and the lack of option to exchange the least).

I don't think waiting 2-3 years for prices to fall maybe another 10%-20% is worth it. If the heart wants Riviera now, go for it! Just don't be surprised if prices to continue to fall in the coming years.

 

[iftravel]

Yeah Riviera resale price has been in steady drop. Don’t understand why Disney went from extremely friendly to extremely unfriendly to resales owners.

 

[DanCali]

Yeah Riviera resale price has been in steady drop. Don’t understand why Disney went from extremely friendly to extremely unfriendly to resales owners.

Those who are not familiar with the resale option won't care. They will buy still direct and probably won't realize the implications of what the restrictions do to resale prices, if they even bother to read that fine print in the contract.

But if the resale product is too "functional" (can do most of what the direct product does) those who know about the resale option will never buy direct, especially if the price disparity is high. That can be "resolved" by making the resale product useless for internal exchanges. Now you may get some of those potential resale buyers to buy direct because they want to have more "bells and whistles" and trade internally. You may also lose some potential buyers, like me, who under some conditions may be ok with buying (unrestricted) Poly direct for $50/pt over resale but not (restricted) Riviera direct for $100/pt over resale. Their gamble is probably that it adds more than it detracts.

Moreover, they can play the long game - as time goes by and the resale options become less attractive, because there are more restricted resorts and unrestricted resorts will start expiring after 2042, this will just be the new normal - buy direct, or settle for a cheap but very restricted resale contract. For a company, it's a lengthy transition period they decided to go through. As individuals, we don't all have that same time horizon.

Owners who own/ed with other timeshare systems (eg Vistana) have seen what these type restrictions do to resale prices. Now that maintenance fees are out of control, most Vistana resale prices are relatively low, but if you look back 10-15 years ago, the Westin Maui and Westin Kierland (in the AZ desert) were selling on the resale market at 3x-5x relative to other Westin restricted resorts like Westin on Kauai or the Westins in the CA desert. The same could be said for the Sheraton Vistana Villages (first 2 phases) vs the later phases at that exact same resort, for which there was very little interest on the resale market. With that history, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see DVC prices for restricted resorts like VDH and RIV be much lower even than where they are today. The number of sellers will only grow and the buyers willing to pay current prices are limited.

It's possible that, just like Vistana and Marriott, DVC will eventually decide to entice the "informed buyers" to buy direct by offering to enroll their existing resale contracts in the system and make them fully functional again. That's a rather costless way (that only DVC can do) to get someone to buy something for $240 if its resale price was $80.

 

[iftravel]

Those who are not familiar with the resale option won't care. They will buy still direct and probably won't realize the implications of what the restrictions do to resale prices, if they even bother to read that fine print in the contract.

But if the resale product is too "functional" (can do most of what the direct product does) those who know about the resale option will never buy direct, especially if the price disparity is high. That can be "resolved" by making the resale product useless for internal exchanges. Now you may get some of those potential resale buyers to buy direct because they want to have more "bells and whistles" and trade internally. You may also lose some potential buyers, like me, who under some conditions may be ok with buying (unrestricted) Poly direct for $50/pt over resale but not (restricted) Riviera direct for $100/pt over resale. Their gamble is probably that it adds more than it detracts.

Moreover, they can play the long game - as time goes by and the resale options become less attractive, because there are more restricted resorts and unrestricted resorts will start expiring after 2042, this will just be the new normal - buy direct, or settle for a cheap but very restricted resale contract. For a company, it's a lengthy transition period they decided to go through. As individuals, we don't all have that same time horizon.

Owners who own/ed with other timeshare systems (eg Vistana) have seen what these type restrictions do to resale prices. Now that maintenance fees are out of control, most Vistana resale prices are relatively low, but if you look back 10-15 years ago, the Westin Maui and Westin Kierland (in the AZ desert) were selling on the resale market at 3x-5x relative to other Westin restricted resorts like Westin on Kauai or the Westins in the CA desert. The same could be said for the Sheraton Vistana Villages (first 2 phases) vs the later phases at that exact same resort, for which there was very little interest on the resale market. With that history, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see DVC prices for restricted resorts like VDH and RIV be much lower even than where they are today. The number of sellers will only grow and the buyers willing to pay current prices are limited.

It's possible that, just like Vistana and Marriott, DVC will eventually decide to entice the "informed buyers" to buy direct by offering to enroll their existing resale contracts in the system and make them fully functional again. That's a rather costless way (that only DVC can do) to get someone to buy something for $240 if its resale price was $80.

Yeah $80 is likely the intrinsic value for such restrictive contract. If as you said, the availability at 7-month out isn’t bad (since non-RIV resale owners cannot book), one should consider buy direct elsewhere for 120-150 ish with promotion, instead of resale Riviera at 110.

 

[DanCali]

Yeah $80 is likely the intrinsic value for such restrictive contract. If as you said, the availability at 7-month out isn’t bad (since non-RIV resale owners cannot book), one should consider buy direct elsewhere for 120-150 ish with promotion, instead of resale Riviera at 110.

That's what we did when they had the AKV ($140s) and VGF ($160s) promos in 2023. That VGF promo was basically the same price as resale - I wish we got more direct... But I don't see those types of promos coming back anytime soon.

We have both direct and resale - but mostly resale. We may buy another resale Poly because at this point we have all the benefits of direct and enough points to book at the newer (restricted) resorts. There's not much upside for us in paying a high "direct premium".

 

[heathpack]

Those who are not familiar with the resale option won't care. They will buy still direct and probably won't realize the implications of what the restrictions do to resale prices, if they even bother to read that fine print in the contract.

But if the resale product is too "functional" (can do most of what the direct product does) those who know about the resale option will never buy direct, especially if the price disparity is high. That can be "resolved" by making the resale product useless for internal exchanges. Now you may get some of those potential resale buyers to buy direct because they want to have more "bells and whistles" and trade internally. You may also lose some potential buyers, like me, who under some conditions may be ok with buying (unrestricted) Poly direct for $50/pt over resale but not (restricted) Riviera direct for $100/pt over resale. Their gamble is probably that it adds more than it detracts.

Moreover, they can play the long game - as time goes by and the resale options become less attractive, because there are more restricted resorts and unrestricted resorts will start expiring after 2042, this will just be the new normal - buy direct, or settle for a cheap but very restricted resale contract. For a company, it's a lengthy transition period they decided to go through. As individuals, we don't all have that same time horizon.

Owners who own/ed with other timeshare systems (eg Vistana) have seen what these type restrictions do to resale prices. Now that maintenance fees are out of control, most Vistana resale prices are relatively low, but if you look back 10-15 years ago, the Westin Maui and Westin Kierland (in the AZ desert) were selling on the resale market at 3x-5x relative to other Westin restricted resorts like Westin on Kauai or the Westins in the CA desert. The same could be said for the Sheraton Vistana Villages (first 2 phases) vs the later phases at that exact same resort, for which there was very little interest on the resale market. With that history, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see DVC prices for restricted resorts like VDH and RIV be much lower even than where they are today. The number of sellers will only grow and the buyers willing to pay current prices are limited.

It's possible that, just like Vistana and Marriott, DVC will eventually decide to entice the "informed buyers" to buy direct by offering to enroll their existing resale contracts in the system and make them fully functional again. That's a rather costless way (that only DVC can do) to get someone to buy something for $240 if its resale price was $80.

It has always seemed to me that robust resale prices work to drive DVC direct sales. When the resale prices are cheaper but not that cheaper, buyers justify purchasing direct. When resale prices are super low, buyers buy the resale and find work-arounds. The work-around for DVC is to buy multiple cheap contracts at different resorts. Or to not own at all and rent from others.

I also think they undermine good will. I don’t hesitate to buy more DVC because IMO the company treats their owners reasonably well.

Resale restrictions might seem mathematically like a good move but I actually think they’re counter productive. But what do I know?!

 

[ljmiii]

Resale restrictions might seem mathematically like a good move but I actually think they’re counter productive. But what do I know?!

Three times I was willing to buy DVC direct and never did.

The first time I was about to buy VWL direct, decided that we wanted BCV instead, was told DVC didn't have any BCV to sell, and bought BCV resale. For the same cost as buying VWL direct (after incentives) because there were no resale restrictions to push the price down.

The second time (after being shut out of BLT at 7 months one too many times) I was going to buy BLT direct...until I noticed that the resale restrictions of the time (you couldn't use your points to do stupid things) had helped drive down the price of resale to the point where buying direct was foolish. So I bought BLT resale.

The third time I had money in hand waiting to buy a fixed week at Riviera the day sales opened...but then they announced the new truly punitive resale restrictions. So I bought resale at BWV instead.

I feel for those buying into DVC for the first time today. While there are many great options next to the MK (BLT, Poly, VGF) and three good 'value' options (AKV, SSR, and OKW 2057), there aren't any resorts I can really recommend next to EPCOT and HS.

 

[Dean]

It has always seemed to me that robust resale prices work to drive DVC direct sales. When the resale prices are cheaper but not that cheaper, buyers justify purchasing direct. When resale prices are super low, buyers buy the resale and find work-arounds. The work-around for DVC is to buy multiple cheap contracts at different resorts. Or to not own at all and rent from others.

I also think they undermine good will. I don’t hesitate to buy more DVC because IMO the company treats their owners reasonably well.

Resale restrictions might seem mathematically like a good move but I actually think they’re counter productive. But what do I know?!

Historically DVC has used ROFR largely to drive retail sales because every potential resale buyer is also a potential retail buyer. DVC's goal, along with all timeshares in active sales, is to have all sales retail with no resale sales. Resale brokers don't care about ROFR since they get their commission either way (other than Westgate) and potentially could get another sale out of the deal so double the commission. No doubt DVC is less member friendly than in the early days but at the end of the day they are in the business of selling timeshares plus collecting maintenance fees.

 

[ljmiii]

No doubt DVC is less member friendly than in the early days but at the end of the day they are in the business of selling timeshares plus collecting maintenance fees....

True...but I can't help missing those "early days". When we were looking to buy at VWL, 'DVC isn't like other timeshare companies' and 'If you decide to sell you'll get your money back...and maybe more' were part of the sales pitch.

 

[iftravel]

Historically DVC has used ROFR largely to drive retail sales because every potential resale buyer is also a potential retail buyer. DVC's goal, along with all timeshares in active sales, is to have all sales retail with no resale sales. Resale brokers don't care about ROFR since they get their commission either way (other than Westgate) and potentially could get another sale out of the deal so double the commission. No doubt DVC is less member friendly than in the early days but at the end of the day they are in the business of selling timeshares plus collecting maintenance fees.

I think the Mouse gets GREEDY as they can use ROFR to get new inventory and resale restriction is a good way to push down the resale price and increase the profit. It could backfire as people got upset when they look at the resale market and hold back any new direct purchase. A lot of DVC owners are serial buyers ("add-on"s) and they don't need to think much before (without resale restrictions) but now have to.

I hate to say but it's a bad strategic move for Disney. They should not adopt a business model that rely heavily on "impulse" buyers like Westgate or more or less Marriott today. Remember they have a much bigger business than just timeshare and a big brandname to maintain. You don't want a new generation of owners who hate their purchase decisions and it can pass on to many generations (whether you bought direct, or bought resale with "Westgate"-smell restrictions, you got a strong reason to hate Disney)

BTW, what's special about Westgate?

 

[Dean]

True...but I can't help missing those "early days". When we were looking to buy at VWL, 'DVC isn't like other timeshare companies' and 'If you decide to sell you'll get your money back...and maybe more' were part of the sales pitch.

My view is that while there have been some superficial changes, DVC was always just a timeshare. And that everyone going in should have known that in spite of the hype. And some changes have been for the better, some not. For example, the original banking option only allowed banking of 50% of the points.

I think the Mouse gets GREEDY as they can use ROFR to get new inventory and resale restriction is a good way to push down the resale price and increase the profit. It could backfire as people got upset when they look at the resale market and hold back any new direct purchase. A lot of DVC owners are serial buyers ("add-on"s) and they don't need to think much before (without resale restrictions) but now have to.

I hate to say but it's a bad strategic move for Disney. They should not adopt a business model that rely heavily on "impulse" buyers like Westgate or more or less Marriott today. Remember they have a much bigger business than just timeshare and a big brandname to maintain. You don't want a new generation of owners who hate their purchase decisions and it can pass on to many generations (whether you bought direct, or bought resale with "Westgate"-smell restrictions, you got a strong reason to hate Disney)

BTW, what's special about Westgate?

I don't see that as greedy, I see that as how the system was set up all along and as a reasonable business practice. DVD (sales) mainly cares about those that buy resale, not just because they are members thus it's those that are serially buying retail that are their focus. While people talk about the resale limitations as affecting DVC sales, I doubt that will ever be the case at least enough to make a true difference and certainly no enough to have them backtrack on the limitations. The reality is that with an open, above board product with a reasonable margin would never fly in the timeshare world, including Disney. That's why good timeshares salesman often make multiples of 6 figures.

There used to be a poster here whose signature was "Westgate - if you want the worst we're the best". Basically, as I understand it, they took the stance that they were the broker and entitled to the commission cutting out the resale broker. Most brokers quite dealing with Westgate at the time. Plus they are the most aggressive company I know of for bothering you to tour if staying and about as high pressure as you can get even worse than Wyndham.

 

[heathpack]

Historically DVC has used ROFR largely to drive retail sales because every potential resale buyer is also a potential retail buyer. DVC's goal, along with all timeshares in active sales, is to have all sales retail with no resale sales. Resale brokers don't care about ROFR since they get their commission either way (other than Westgate) and potentially could get another sale out of the deal so double the commission. No doubt DVC is less member friendly than in the early days but at the end of the day they are in the business of selling timeshares plus collecting maintenance fees.

Although DVC may wish every sale would be direct, they are not buying back every contract and its a fact of life that most people eventually sell their contracts. For the ones DVC doesn't buy back, I still maintain its in DVC's interests for the sales price to be high. Many don't want to deal with the uncertainties and long time frame of resale purchases and will just buy direct if the price is close-ish. Low resale prices don't drive buyers to direct purchases in the way that high resale values do. So yes I agree that DVC is in the business of selling timeshares, ideally selling multiple contracts to the same person over a period of years. In 10 years, having a bunch of inexpensive Riveria resale contracts floating around that give people a much lower cost alternative to direct seems shortsighted to me. But again, what do I know? My own logic of buying is different from that of many DVCer's.

 

[Dean]

Although DVC may wish every sale would be direct, they are not buying back every contract and its a fact of life that most people eventually sell their contracts. For the ones DVC doesn't buy back, I still maintain its in DVC's interests for the sales price to be high. Many don't want to deal with the uncertainties and long time frame of resale purchases and will just buy direct if the price is close-ish. Low resale prices don't drive buyers to direct purchases in the way that high resale values do. So yes I agree that DVC is in the business of selling timeshares, ideally selling multiple contracts to the same person over a period of years. In 10 years, having a bunch of inexpensive Riveria resale contracts floating around that give people a much lower cost alternative to direct seems shortsighted to me. But again, what do I know? My own logic of buying is different from that of many DVCer's.

There is an economic decision on their part with a large part of the up front costs being marketing and commissions plus they have other inventory to deal with. A large part of their plan is to make resales aggravating, that's one of the reasons they are inconsistent on their ROFR though there are others. It is in their interest for resale prices to be high but not by buying them back at too high of a price or by extending benefits that doesn't allow significant differentiation between resale and retail.. Realize that the majority of buyers are still going to buy retail for a number of reasons, especially now with the other limitations on newer resorts. And yes we here are all not the usual timeshare buyer and probably even more likely to make informed decisions that would lead us to resale than say DIS because of the additional non DVC timeshare focus that many here have.

 

[heathpack]

There is an economic decision on their part with a large part of the up front costs being marketing and commissions plus they have other inventory to deal with. A large part of their plan is to make resales aggravating, that's one of the reasons they are inconsistent on their ROFR though there are others. It is in their interest for resale prices to be high but not by buying them back at too high of a price or by extending benefits that doesn't allow significant differentiation between resale and retail.. Realize that the majority of buyers are still going to buy retail for a number of reasons, especially now with the other limitations on newer resorts. And yes we here are all not the usual timeshare buyer and probably even more likely to make informed decisions that would lead us to resale than say DIS because of the additional non DVC timeshare focus that many here have.

Well... I think its one thing to prohibit resale buyers from attending Moonlight Magic events and from using points for cruises and from enjoying member lounges- things that are fairly trivial but for whatever reason are really important t o a lot of people.

Its another thing to have a large pool of $80/point restricted contracts floating around in 10 years when you're trying to sell your your new Lakeside Lodge at $300/pt..

Only time will tell if I'm right and the resale restrictions will be a boon for DVC or a detriment. Neither you nor I can fully know right now. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the years.

 

[ljmiii]

Only time will tell if I'm right and the resale restrictions will be a boon for DVC or a detriment...

I agree...except that DVC/DVD built in a failsafe to the resale restrictions should they ever hinder future direct sales. And as I recently mentioned in another thread, make yet more money in the process. I think it's just a question of when and how.

"4. DVD has reserved the right, in its discretion to modify or revoke implementation of any of these prohibitions, or then reinstate implementation of any of these prohibitions as it determines in its discretion from time to time, or permit such conversions for such Club Members who pay a fee or acquire an additional Ownership Interest at Riviera Resort or other DVC Resort, or to place additional prohibitions or limitations on certain Club Members including implementing such prohibitions or limitations to select Club Members or categories of Club Members or to set times. Such actions or decisions may be implemented by DVD, in its discretion, through a notice recorded in the public records, by requiring BVTC to make such an amendment to the BVTC Disclosure Document, or such other method, and such exercise of its reserved right shall not be subject to the approval or consent of any person, including the Association or any Club Member."

 

[Dean]

Well... I think its one thing to prohibit resale buyers from attending Moonlight Magic events and from using points for cruises and from enjoying member lounges- things that are fairly trivial but for whatever reason are really important t o a lot of people.

Its another thing to have a large pool of $80/point restricted contracts floating around in 10 years when you're trying to sell your your new Lakeside Lodge at $300/pt..

Only time will tell if I'm right and the resale restrictions will be a boon for DVC or a detriment. Neither you nor I can fully know right now. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the years.

Maybe but who's to say that even if they removed all restrictions it would help the issue. 10 years is a long time and the ending of the 2042 resorts will be a FAR bigger issue than this at that time IMO. I'm sure restrictions have hindered some sales and enabled others. Even when there were no restrictions a large % of buyers, even existing owners, bought retail over the years but obviously if it was a large enough % there would be no need for the restrictions. IMO the points escalation is a far bigger issue than this one. I've seen the nay sayers talk about resale prices and hurting the image including boycotts and they have marched right along with price increases and sales.

 

[DanCali]

Its another thing to have a large pool of $80/point restricted contracts floating around in 10 years when you're trying to sell your your new Lakeside Lodge at $300/pt..

Only time will tell if I'm right and the resale restrictions will be a boon for DVC or a detriment. Neither you nor I can fully know right now. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the years.

I think both you and I might prefer 4x100-point contracts each restricted to 1 resort (could be at 4 separate resorts) over 1x100-point unrestricted contract at the same price.

But I don't think most DVC buyers would think like that, even if they are aware of the resale market option.

 

[nomoretslt]

I don’t agree that DVC is less member friendly than in the early days (not counting when the started selling Disney’s Vacation Club Resort now known as Old Key West). When we bought BWV in 1997 we got a canvas beach bag. The only perk was free valet parking (never once used it). Forgot what year that went away. We were not allowed to purchase a dining plan until a number of years later, I think is was 2005. Discounted annual passes were made available in 2010 maybe. Now we get discounts on food and merchandise, discounts on Halloween and Christmas parties, special events like Moonlight Magic and two nice lounges at my two favorite parks.
Direct buyers of Riviera will be able to use their points at the new lakeside lodge and any other new resorts they are planning (Yacht Club would be nice….there is also a nice piece of land behind the UK in Epcot).and will be able to use them (I am assuming) at the new Boardwalk, Beach Club and Wilderness lodge after 2042. I’m hoping to live long enough to see that last days of my BWV contract, doubtful, I’ll be 86.
@kanerf ….lol, I agree…..sigh I gotta stay at that darned Riviera again. It’s a lovely resort. We bought 2 100 point contracts when it first opened. I want to say we paid $160 pp after incentives? Maybe a little more?

 

[simpsontruckdriver]

One thing about DVC that brings people in the door is being able to be in the "WDW Bubble". Unlike other Orlando-area timeshares, guests get $0 transportation usually between 7am until around midnight to anywhere on property including ECVs (Electric Conveyance Vehicles - aka scooters). The exception is Fort Wilderness Campgrounds, when buses run a little later. No cruise or special admission? Many are willing to shrug off those for a less expensive option versus retail.
TS

 

[elaine]

I'd never buy R resale. If I cannot get my dates--I'm out of luck. I don't want to stress about waitlisting and not getting in. I'm just not willing to play those odds. Plus the points are higher than most legacy resorts, where I can get a lot of bang for my (resale) buck.
I've got a small direct purchase--have you seen the massive posts about people trying to get in the Moonlight Magic lottery? I've done it (been "lucky" and been shut out), it's maddening--3 devices logged in, seeing others get "in" in 2 minutes when you've been waiting for 20-just to get shut out. I'd be pretty upset if that was a "perk" that I got for buying direct.