Plane crash at LGA

[am1]

Nothing here about the plane crash with a fire truck on the runway at LGA? Sadly both pilots lost their lives to the error at the control tower but everyone else survived.

 

[AnnaS]

Very sad......I had the same thought (but then thought might get political ?). And a miracle the flight attendant survived.

 

[rickandcindy23]

It was a terrible tragedy.

 

[clifffaith]

Amazing that they didn’t end up with dozens of casualties. And shocking that there was not more/better oversight on the ground to prevent an issue with another plane from cascading into this perfect storm of a tragedy.

 

[dioxide45]

The FAA and NTSB log hundreds of close calls every month at the nation's airports. Sadly, it was only a matter of time until it wasn't a close call.

 

[davidvel]

Nothing here about the plane crash with a fire truck on the runway at LGA? Sadly both pilots lost their lives to the error at the control tower but everyone else survived.

You've determined the root cause was ATC error? Interesting. Lots of factors certainly contributed, including the reported fire apparatus ignoring red stop bar lights entering the active runway, as well as issues with radio comms.

You should call the NTSB and save us all lots of money that will be wasted in their lengthy investigation.

 

[Luanne]

You've determined the root cause was ATC error? Interesting. Lots of factors certainly contributed, including the reported fire apparatus ignoring red stop bar lights entering the active runway, as well as issues with radio comms.

You should call the NTSB and save us all lots of money that will be wasted in their lengthy investigation.

Well the air traffic controller said (and I did hear the audio) that he screwed up. I'm sure there were other factors, but he is taking responsibility for his part.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Well the air traffic controller said (and I did hear the audio) that he goofed up. I'm sure there were other factors, but he is taking responsibility for his part.

Yes, I was going to say this too, but I decided not to engage with someone who tends to get very nasty and never gets suspended from TUG for his rude remarks.

The ATC tried to stop the fire truck from going through and perhaps the audio didn't work inside the truck. We don't know. We were in Puerto Rico when we turned on CNN and saw this horrific accident that happened the night before. Rick doesn't like to watch the news, but as a former 40-year career firefighter for Denver, he was saddened to see the fire truck demolished and two firefighters killed. That could happen at Denver airport, and he has at least 20 friends who are still working at the airport firehouses.

 

[dioxide45]

Yes, I was going to say this too, but I decided not to engage with someone who tends to get very nasty and never gets suspended from TUG for his rude remarks.

The ATC tried to stop the fire truck from going through and perhaps the audio didn't work inside the truck. We don't know. We were in Puerto Rico when we turned on CNN and saw this horrific accident that happened the night before. Rick doesn't like to watch the news, but as a former 40-year career firefighter for Denver, he was saddened to see the fire truck demolished and two firefighters killed. That could happen at Denver airport, and he has at least 20 friends who are still working at the airport firehouses.

I think that is just it, we don't 100% know why the truck didn't stop when told to stop. Was the ATC using the wrong channel to relay to the truck to stop. Perhaps ATC was still on the channel to talk to the pilots. It does appear that ATC did grant approval to the truck to cross the runway and the plane to land on that same runway. It is easy to jump to early conclusions because we want fast answers, but it is usually best to at least wait untill the initial report from the NTSB (usually at 30 days). The final report can often take a year to two years.

It should be noted that those in the fire truck were not killed.

Also, I will agree that it is often wise to not engage. For similar reasons, it's one reason I no longer participate in the Club Wyndham forum.

 

[rickandcindy23]

CNN reported that two firefighters were killed. I read later that they were not. I wasn't sure what was true and I am intentionally not looking into further details.

I agree about the Club Wyndham forum.

 

[claraj]

@dioxide45 and @rickandcindy23 are some of my favorite people here!

 

[DrQ]

Most disasters are comprised of small mistakes, some may have gone unnoticed/unresolved for years that stack up into a "perfect storm". There is rarely a single culprit.

Douglas Adams had a great passage in one of his books; The S.E.P. field, which renders things invisible:

A "Somebody Else's Problem" (SEP) field is a fictional cloaking device from Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that makes objects unnoticeable by exploiting human psychology. It renders items invisible not by hiding them, but by causing minds to perceive them as someone else's responsibility, making them "not someone’s problem" to notice.​

 

[youppi]

A fire truck should stop and check if an aircraft is approaching before crossing IMHO, even if the control tower gives the green light, just like they do before crossing a street on a red light and also just as a bus driver stops at a level crossing even if the barrier is open and the signal is not flashing.
From this video https://www.facebook.com/reel/26343967728627571, I think if the fire truck had stopped and looked before crossing, they would have seen the plane coming.

 

[dioxide45]

A fire truck should stop and check if an aircraft is approaching before crossing IMHO, even if the control tower gives the green light, just like they do before crossing a street on a red light and also just as a bus driver stops at a level crossing even if the barrier is open and the signal is not flashing.
From this video https://www.facebook.com/reel/26343967728627571, I think if the fire truck had stopped and looked before crossing, they would have seen the plane coming.

It was dark and it was raining. Also, the angle of their view was more behind their shoulder than just straight to the right. Seeing the plane coming in on approach may not have been as easy as it sounds.

 

[TolmiePeak]

It was dark and it was raining. Also, the angle of their view was more behind their shoulder than just straight to the right. Seeing the plane coming in on approach may not have been as easy as it sounds.

Exactly. I don't like driving at night anymore as I can't see pedestrians dressed in all black during wet rainy weather and the glare from bright headlights. Very tough to see.

 

[moonstone]

Another problem from what I have been reading (mostly in the Canadian news) is that the fire truck (& maybe other airport service trucks at LGA) do not have the screen in the truck that shows nearby aircraft, landing, taking off, taxiing, so they know what is nearby, like other airports have or the transponder to show pilots and the control tower their position. A firefighter buddy of DH's who is now a full time FF at YYZ says when they are in the truck on any part of the airport property they can look on their screen and see all aircraft, in the air or not, that has their locater turned on. That is what makes them show up when you look at the website Flight Radar. I am not sure if the fire trucks and other service trucks also have transponders on so they are visible to the tower or not, but I do know when I look at Flight Radar I can see the location of all the de-icing trucks/machines at YYZ, I have never looked for a firetruck.


Another thing that is probably not getting much press in the USA about the crash is that when the CEO of Air Canada made the announcement about the crash and loss of the 2 pilots, he did not speak French in any part of his speech except for bonjour( hello) at the beginning and merci (thank you) at the end. Since French is one of the 2 official languages of Canada it is expected that all official announcements have some French in them, but not necessarily the whole speech in both languages. The CEO, Michael Rousseau, does not speak French well and said in the rush to make the announcement, and his distress at the time, he did not have any part of his speech written out in French for him to read. Most TV stations added closed captions in French for the broadcast which seems to be not enough for the Francophones of Canada and they are calling for the CEO to resign! SMH

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/air-canada-ceo-michael-rousseau-francois-legault-9.7141491

~Diane

 

[davidvel]

Yes, I was going to say this too, but I decided not to engage with someone who tends to get very nasty and never gets suspended from TUG for his rude remarks.

The ATC tried to stop the fire truck from going through and perhaps the audio didn't work inside the truck. We don't know. We were in Puerto Rico when we turned on CNN and saw this horrific accident that happened the night before. Rick doesn't like to watch the news, but as a former 40-year career firefighter for Denver, he was saddened to see the fire truck demolished and two firefighters killed. That could happen at Denver airport, and he has at least 20 friends who are still working at the airport firehouses.

Well I'll engage, since you called me out. I was simply positing that the OP was asserting that it was established that this crash was caused by ATC as opposed to another reason. You posted that 2 FF were killed which was equally erroneous. If you find this "nasty" that is your choice.

I also have friends and family in the fire service, and despite this I acknowledge that the public videos appear to show the stop bar (ie Red Lights) are illuminated. This means that nothing, including emergency vehicles, can enter the runway as it is active, and an aircraft is or will be traveling on it. Truck #1 crossed the runway regardless. We don't know why.


ATC granted Truck #1 and company to cross the runway, but later attempted to rescind this. It is unclear what the timeframe was between the two.
Despite all this, there are a lot of facts to be established/confirmed, and for someone to blatantly claim it was ATC's fault at this point is absurd.

 

[PigsDad]

Most disasters are comprised of small mistakes, some may have gone unnoticed/unresolved for years that stack up into a "perfect storm". There is rarely a single culprit.

Exactly. The TV series "Air Disasters" on the Smithsonian Channel (and other services) does a great job of explaining how every air accident ends up being a series of very unlikely mistakes or failures that all have to happen together. Really good series.

Kurt

 

[easyrider]

A fire truck should stop and check if an aircraft is approaching before crossing IMHO, even if the control tower gives the green light, just like they do before crossing a street on a red light and also just as a bus driver stops at a level crossing even if the barrier is open and the signal is not flashing.
From this video https://www.facebook.com/reel/26343967728627571, I think if the fire truck had stopped and looked before crossing, they would have seen the plane coming.

You said what I think.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

and for someone to blatantly claim it was ATC's fault at this point is absurd

You must have missed that the atc said he screwed up Columbo.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

You must have missed that the atc said he screwed up Columbo.

Bill

If you mean that the controller said "Yeah I know I tried to reach out to 'em I stopped and we were dealing with an emergency earlier and I messed up." And then someone said "NO, you did the best you could..." No, I didn't miss that.

From what we know the controller cleared them, and it took awhile for them to get to the runway crossing, and the controller told them to stop and only the first apparatus continued while all others stopped (and from videos it proceeded against the red stop bar lights which no aircraft or other vehicle is ever permitted to do regardless of any ATC directive.)

Either way, people involved in tragic death incidents often feel immediate grief, and express remorse, and feel responsible whether they actually are the root cause or not.

So yes, I stand by my assertion that for someone to blatantly claim it was ATC's fault at this point is absurd, counselor.

 

[easyrider]

I stand by my assertion that for someone to blatantly claim it was ATC's fault at this point is absurd,

Who do you suppose is in charge of all take offs, landings , ground vehicles and run way crossings at the airport Columbo esq. ?

Bill

 

[davidvel]

Who do you suppose is in charge of all take offs, landings , ground vehicles and run way crossings at the airport Columbo esq. ?

Bill

Lots of different people beyond ATC. Bill, you are getting slower by the day, and that is saying a lot. I wish you the best.

 

[easyrider]

Lots of different people beyond ATC. Bill, you are getting slower by the day, and that is saying a lot. I wish you the best.

The atc is in charge of all take offs, landings, ground vehicles and runway crossings at the airport. When you say lots of people you are referring to the tower control and ground control which are all atc.

Better questions for you is why are 20% to 40% of atc's not showing up for work ? Why does La Guardia have up to a 50%- 80% of atc's not showing up for work ? This can't be debated here as it would cross the line of what is deemed appropriate. These questions are for @davidvel Esq. only.

Bill

 

[dioxide45]

The atc is in charge of all take offs, landings, ground vehicles and runway crossings at the airport. When you say lots of people you are referring to the tower control and ground control which are all atc.

Better questions for you is why are 20% to 40% of atc's not showing up for work ? Why does La Guardia have up to a 50%- 80% of atc's not showing up for work ? This can't be debated here as it would cross the line of what is deemed appropriate. These questions are for @davidvel Esq. only.

Bill

While I am not mr Esq. If you are implying that recent government shutdowns are the cause of absenteeism of ATC staff. that isn't it. ATC is under the FAA and FAA is receiving full funding. There are a lot of issues with ATC. It is a high stress job and employees need to be hired before a certain age to qualify. Thus making the pool of potential employees small. Then we have the antiquated nature of ATC in the US.