Wyndham is closing a handful of legacy resorts - dedicated chart/tracker located in the first post for this unfolding set of events

[CO skier]

You have your opinion and I have mine.

You had some questions

And just wondering how many people (Wyndham included) think it was such a great idea to shut down those megarenters / people who were paying maintenance fees on millions of points. And filling those empty rooms.

I provided some answers.

We don't get facts and data from Wyndham. EVER about anything.

Wyndham provides facts if one does some digging. There is a wealth of facts in the Fairshare Vacation Plan Trust Agreement and Club Directory, among other sources. A few examples:

We determined Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. owns the “Real Property Interests” in Club Wyndham Access based on some factual Wyndham information.

Facts were cited to shed some light on why Wyndham is continuing to accept 2026 reservations at the affected resorts.

When a cabal of commercial renters were ushered out the Club exit door ten nine years ago, there were posts about how much easier it was to find and book availability in Presidential units.

Wyndham is, for some reason, more transparent with WorldMark owners than Club Wyndham owners. It is a published fact that there were 30,000 more owner arrivals in the year following the introduction of guest certificates in WorldMark. WorldMark is less than half the size of Club Wyndham. While not a fact, it is safe to surmise WorldMark and Club Wyndham owners would like to see more of this kind of availability.

 

[paxsarah]

I don't mean owners here, I mean presumably they're also renting these still on the open market in Extra Vacations or the like.

Actually, RENTER of all people pointed out in the first week or so that the resorts under discussion had been blocked from Extra Holidays listings after the new year.

 

[paxsarah]

It's largely a form letter that all resorts are using that was, essentially, written by K&L Gates - the third-party law firm representing all of the HOAs for these actions.

A quick Google search of the firms shows that Hilco is a large firm that specializes in RE optimization and disposition.

It seems like the HOA side of the process is very orchestrated across all of the resorts in question. Do we have any indication as to whether the real estate sales side is expected to be similarly orchestrated? That is, do we think there are already buyer(s) lined up for some or all of these locations? The resorts are so disparate I wouldn't have thought so, but obviously they're employing pros to get this taken care of on a tight timeline, so now I wonder maybe?

Also, kind of unrelated, are the same firms being used for KBV as well? Even though its saga has been ongoing for much longer, it sure seems like they've used this opportunity to use bankruptcy to get things moving there.

 

[jen.in.hi]

It appears that there might be more than one association in Fairfield Bay (AR). I am curious if anyone is aware of other HOAs other than Mountain Meadows.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It seems like the HOA side of the process is very orchestrated across all of the resorts in question. Do we have any indication as to whether the real estate sales side is expected to be similarly orchestrated? That is, do we think there are already buyer(s) lined up for some or all of these locations? The resorts are so disparate I wouldn't have thought so, but obviously they're employing pros to get this taken care of on a tight timeline, so now I wonder maybe?

That has been my supposition all along yes, though only time will tell of course.

Also, kind of unrelated, are the same firms being used for KBV as well? Even though its saga has been ongoing for much longer, it sure seems like they've used this opportunity to use bankruptcy to get things moving there.

IDK about KBV. Someone who is privy to the KBV HOA comms would have to provide this type of guidance.

 

[donno]

It appears that there might be more than one association in Fairfield Bay (AR). I am curious if anyone is aware of other HOAs other than Mountain Meadows.

At least two more. My deeds are at Mountain Ridge and Fairways. I think there might even be 1 or 2 more. I have not received any communications yet.

 

[Sandi Bo]

You had some questions

I provided some answers.




Wyndham provides facts if one does some digging. There is a wealth of facts in the Fairshare Vacation Plan Trust Agreement and Club Directory, among other sources. A few examples:

We determined Wyndham Vacation Resorts, Inc. owns the “Real Property Interests” in Club Wyndham Access based on some factual Wyndham information.

Facts were cited to shed some light on why Wyndham is continuing to accept 2026 reservations at the affected resorts.

When a cabal of commercial renters were ushered out the Club exit door ten nine years ago, there were posts about how much easier it was to find and book availability in Presidential units.

Wyndham is, for some reason, more transparent with WorldMark owners than Club Wyndham owners. It is a published fact that there were 30,000 more owner arrivals in the year following the introduction of guest certificates in WorldMark. WorldMark is less than half the size of Club Wyndham. While not a fact, it is safe to surmise WorldMark and Club Wyndham owners would like to see more of this kind of availability.

Still looks like lots of opinion (an assumptions) to me. Why not up be upfront and honest, I shouldn't have to dig for facts or interpolate or make assumptions based on opinions. Facts and data are what I want to see, from Wyndham directly. I realize that isn't going to happen.

I'm not sure how many facts have actually been stated, we've seen a lot of opinions.

I didn't realize the goal was to make Presidential units more available (if that was important to me, I'd own Presidential Reserve).

As far guest certificates and owner occupancy. When there was no fee for guest certificates, one would use them more freely. Before I was added as an owner to the account, I would wait for my Dad to arrive so he could check us in. When GC's were complimentary, he would have just added my name. Staying in the same room, rules changes, now we have skewed data (in addition to inconvenience). Of course there are more owners checking in now that would have used a GC under previous rules.

Cabal of commercial renters? Splitting resale and developer should have fixed that. Probably did. IMO - Wyndham would have done well to stop at that. (And seriously, why did resale contracts ever get VIP benefits, another bad way to do run a business (we could go on and on)).

2025 is a whole different world than pre-2017, for many, many reasons.

 

[HitchHiker71]

This is the thing I've been wondering about. If I'm looking to book a trip, and am booking flights and other hard to change or refund things and you knowingly offer me a accommodations that you never intend to fulfill - isn't that some sort of fraud? I don't mean owners here, I mean presumably they're also renting these still on the open market in Extra Vacations or the like. If you then rug pull me on my lodging I'm suffering actual monetary damages on either more last minute bookings, lost airline tickets or change fees on those tickets, etc. Would trip insurance even cover a booking that went "poof", not for some natural disaster, but because a hotel, TS, AirB&B, whatever didn't actually exist when you showed up?

Now, I have no idea about if there are special "TS or Wyndham is specially immune to these rules" but I'm pretty sure... I asked AI "Would it count as fraud or be illegal somehow if you offer a lodging service to someone say 6 months in the future, they pay, and you don't provide it and never intended to provide it?" and got the following:

Now, what I'm betting is that the Wyndham lawyers are thinking no one will sue, or they can claim indirect damages aren't their issue. Who knows how courts would rule, or if there's going to be enough people annoyed enough to themselves make a case of it. Which is IMO one issue in our legal system - it's so hard to deal with it that you have to be screwed out of a LOT of money to make it worthwhile. So companies in general are always breaking the law but just up to the threshold where a customer or otherwise affected person would find it worthwhile to sue.

Long story short, your argument requires intent to defraud. If Wyndham is following the steps in question due to direct legal advice from outside firms and/or their own lawyers, and there are legal requirements that are being followed per the bylaws, governing documents, and local/state/federal laws, and Wyndham's legal representation can prove this, and I'm assuming they certainly can in any court of law, then there is no intent to defraud. I'd be curious to get feedback from real world lawyers like @comicbookman as to my assertions here, whether on or off base.

Given the fact that as soon as the HOA member votes occur in the affirmative to cease 2026 operations as of a certain predetermined date, which we now know is documented in the form letters, the resort availabiliy is then blocked off after those dates, then it certainly appears there is an established process in place. FYI, the actual verbiages for the votes themselves are also templated, and are the same across all of the HOA letters sent, at least to date. Below are the templated voting proxies:

 

[bnoble]

Also, kind of unrelated, are the same firms being used for KBV as well?

K&L Gates is mentioned as one of the firms to be retained, yes. From the appendix in the ballot:

Retention of Professionals
Authorizing and empowering each of the Authorized Persons to employ on behalf of the
Association:
(i) a law firm selected by the Authorized Persons as general bankruptcy counsel under Section
327(a) of the Bankruptcy Code; (i1) the law firm of K&L Gates LLP as special bankruptcy
counsel under Section 327(e) of the Bankruptcy Code; and iii) any other legal counsel,
accountants, real estate brokers, financial advisors, restructuring advisors, noticing agents or
other professionals the Authorized Persons deem necessary, appropriate or advisable
(including "conflicts counsel" if required);

But the KBV ballot does not specifically include the December 27th date, so I don't think it is exactly the same template.

 

[paxsarah]

But the KBV ballot does not specifically include the December 27th date, so I don't think it is exactly the same template.

I noticed that for instance Orlando International also didn't include the closure date in its first mailing/vote, only in a subsequent mailing/vote, but other resorts seemed to have combined the actions into a single meeting. (And OIRC's closure date was 12/31 while others have been 12/27.) It certainly makes sense given the complexity of the situation at KBV to do this a single step at a time.

 

[CO skier]

Also, kind of unrelated, are the same firms being used for KBV as well? Even though its saga has been ongoing for much longer, it sure seems like they've used this opportunity to use bankruptcy to get things moving there.

K&L Gates is mentioned as one of the firms to be retained, yes. From the appendix in the ballot:

... and we come full circle from posts on July 20th

So why not just have the same vote to close the resort? What does the bankruptcy provide except an added expense?

Wyndham may have learned something from the Kauai Beach Villas fiasco. A vote was scheduled to close the resort, a group of whole owners sued, and tied up the process for years, and it still goes on. Maybe a bankruptcy filing can protect the majority of owners from the lawsuits by a few.

 

[bnoble]

It’s also worth noting that HitchHiker confirmed that KBV was not part of the overall process the other resorts were undergoing. So, for example, we may not be offered CWA swaps.

 

[CO skier]

It’s also worth noting that HitchHiker confirmed that KBV was not part of the overall process the other resorts were undergoing. So, for example, we may not be offered CWA swaps.

Salvage proceeds may be harder to come by at Kauai Beach Villas. Wyndham is definitely no longer taking any deeds back there.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I noticed that for instance Orlando International also didn't include the closure date in its first mailing/vote, only in a subsequent mailing/vote, but other resorts seemed to have combined the actions into a single meeting. (And OIRC's closure date was 12/31 while others have been 12/27.) It certainly makes sense given the complexity of the situation at KBV to do this a single step at a time.

OIRC was the first instance of this approach - it was formative - hence the templating based upon what transpired at OIRC - the process gets better as it plays out and lessons learned are captured and improvements implemented - hence the templated approach now being used for all other subsequent impacted resorts. KBV is definitely not included in these actions - however I'd bet certain aspects of how these actions play out may impact whatever transpires at KBV over time, and as @CO skier pointed out - lessons learned from KBV seem to have played into the current approach initially tested at OIRC that is now being used for other impacted resorts in scope.

 

[paxsarah]

OIRC was the first instance of this approach - it was formative - hence the templating based upon what transpired at OIRC - the process gets better as it plays out and lessons learned are captured and improvements implemented - hence the templated approach now being used for all other subsequent impacted resorts. KBV is definitely not included in these actions - however I'd bet certain aspects of how these actions play out may impact whatever transpires at KBV over time, and as @CO skier pointed out - lessons learned from KBV seem to have played into the current approach initially tested at OIRC that is now being used for other impacted resorts in scope.

Yes, the timing with KBV seems mostly coincidental, but it certainly helps to have the correct firms already involved in the process and use their expertise. As Brian stated, I wouldn't have expected a CWA swap to be offered to KBV owners - but I will point out that there is absolutely nothing in Wyndham's one public statement about the broader closures that would seem to exclude it (except, I guess, for the terms "certain locations" and "these transitioned resorts" doing a lot of heavy lifting). Once again, if one hadn't been following this closely, there would be no reason to know that one of these is not like the others.

 

[bnoble]

Yeah, the KBV thing has been brewing for years now. If I'm reading between the lines of everything I know so far, here is my guess of the timeline of how things have happened.

1. The lower-lying KBV buildings are flooded in spring of 2020.
2. As part of the repairs from that, the first floors of those buidings are gutted to the studs, which reveals some of the construction defects (I am guessing this is when the beams-not-square-with-foundation problem was noticed).
3. It took a good couple of years to figure out what the extent of the construction defects were, and what it would cost to repair, probably due in part to pandemic shut-down effects. But, that number is stupidly large--between $400K and a half million per unit just for structural repair---probably close to what the non-oceanfront units are worth.
4. Some combination of the KBV Board and Wyndham's people realize that this is a tear-down, and starts looking for a way out.
5. In parallel, some of the whole owners realize the extent of the trouble, and in the spring of 2022 file a spaghetti-against-the-wall suit to try to salvage something from what are now worthless condos that they can never sell for more than a very small fraction of what was market price.
6. The Board/Wyndham come up with the first attempt at dissolving the condominium plan; the non-remediation vote in spring of 2023. This vote requires a 3/4 majority to pass, and the whole owners have approximately 1/3 of the units, so it will require at least some of them to vote in favor. On the birght side, if the vote passes, no one has to chase down all of the individual interval owners and get them to sign deeds; they can be wiped out by the relevant Hawaii statute governing partition. This is particular to Hawaii, though there may be simiilar statutes in other states.
7. Either the Board is worried about getting enough whole owners to throw in the towel, or realize that this is not a good look for the whole owners lawsuit (which is still pending), so they table the non-remediation vote. Twice.
8. At some point between then and now, Wyndham starts looking at shedding some under-performing properties. Someone in (or retianed by) Wyndham has the bright idea of using HOA Bankruptcy as another way to avoid having to chase down all the owners to get them to sign off individually, and get the whole process over with (relatively) quickly. More importantly, Bankruptcy is a Federal action, not a State one, so they don't have to figure out how to make this work in every State's timeshare/condo laws. They only have to invent one mechanism to cover everything.
9. It occurs to someone at Wyndham that this could also be a solution to the KBV problem. The ballot to KBV owners goes out in mid-August, for a special election later this month.

The KBV ballot does not mention what threshold is required for the vote to pass. I suspect this may be just a "regular" special meeting election so it is possible that it only requires a bare majority. I have not read the KBV documents carefully enough to figure that out. Quorum will not be hard to attain, because of the unusual governance structure of KBV, namely: if the majority of the interval owners in a unit vote in a particular way, that's the vote for that unit. If no majority-of-owners is obtained, the IOA votes on behalf of the Interval Owners as a whole. That pretty much guarantees that at least 2/3ds of the condos will have a vote---and that is almost certainly going to be the vote that Wyndham desires.

KBV has two additional wrinkles. One: it would automatically stay the whole owner lawsuit (or, at least, that is the opinion of counsel). Two: if the vote passes in its entirety, the Board can take possession of ether Weeks or whole Units prior to declaring Bankruptcy. This may be a way to pick off the whole owners one by one, by negotiating a settlement with them to get them to go away.

 

[comicbookman]

This is the thing I've been wondering about. If I'm looking to book a trip, and am booking flights and other hard to change or refund things and you knowingly offer me a accommodations that you never intend to fulfill - isn't that some sort of fraud? I don't mean owners here, I mean presumably they're also renting these still on the open market in Extra Vacations or the like. If you then rug pull me on my lodging I'm suffering actual monetary damages on either more last minute bookings, lost airline tickets or change fees on those tickets, etc. Would trip insurance even cover a booking that went "poof", not for some natural disaster, but because a hotel, TS, AirB&B, whatever didn't actually exist when you showed up?

Now, I have no idea about if there are special "TS or Wyndham is specially immune to these rules" but I'm pretty sure... I asked AI "Would it count as fraud or be illegal somehow if you offer a lodging service to someone say 6 months in the future, they pay, and you don't provide it and never intended to provide it?" and got the following:

Now, what I'm betting is that the Wyndham lawyers are thinking no one will sue, or they can claim indirect damages aren't their issue. Who knows how courts would rule, or if there's going to be enough people annoyed enough to themselves make a case of it. Which is IMO one issue in our legal system - it's so hard to deal with it that you have to be screwed out of a LOT of money to make it worthwhile. So companies in general are always breaking the law but just up to the threshold where a customer or otherwise affected person would find it worthwhile to sue.

The problem is you mis framed the question. You should have asked if they had reason to believe they might not be able to fulfil the reservation and then cancelled and refunded when it became certain that they could not fulfill it.

 

[paxsarah]

On Facebook just now, the president of the HOA at Branson at the Falls:
"Letter to owners will be mailed with on a week or so . Lawyers hired and real estate hired . Owners meeting to vote will be Oct 17. Proxy included . More info available after that meeting ."

 

[michely1969]

This is discouraging. I just filed and paid the transfer fees of 800 bucks to take over 2 deeded timeshare for one of the properties listed. At this time Wyndham is processing the transfer. If this property closes I guess I am out the money? Frustrating that if Wyndham new 4-5 months ago (when the process started) that this property was possibly going to close, in my opinion they should have spoken up and said something, instead they just keep taking the money.

 

[chapjim]

I noticed that for instance Orlando International also didn't include the closure date in its first mailing/vote, only in a subsequent mailing/vote, but other resorts seemed to have combined the actions into a single meeting. (And OIRC's closure date was 12/31 while others have been 12/27.) It certainly makes sense given the complexity of the situation at KBV to do this a single step at a time.

The minutes from the Orlando International September 10 Special Membership Meeting says they intend to honor Week 52 reservations. No new reservations starting after December 31, 2025 and no reservation continuing beyond January 3, 2026.

One bit of surprise from the attendees (in person, via Zoom, or telephone call-ins). Most, at least the ones who raised their hand, were apparently fixed week owners and had no concept of how points work. Also, they were clueless about Club Wyndham Access. There were questions about the seventy CWA resorts -- are they just hotel rooms? are they as roomy and comfortable as OIRC? And so on.

One guy complained about the lack of communication regarding the proposal to sell the property. Turns out he ignored the proxy notice for the August 5 meeting, thinking it was just for the annual meeting, approve previous meeting minutes, election of BoD replacements, etc. The only thing that made him pay any attention was the proxy for the second meeting. He wondered why he got two so close together and read the second one. He still complained about the lack of a notice!

 

[HitchHiker71]

On Facebook just now, the president of the HOA at Branson at the Falls:
"Letter to owners will be mailed with on a week or so . Lawyers hired and real estate hired . Owners meeting to vote will be Oct 17. Proxy included . More info available after that meeting ."

Thanks for sharing this, I will update the OP table with this data soon.

EDIT: Tracking table updated.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HitchHiker71]

And again with you sticking your nose into another conversation because you have to get the last word in... again, like you definitely said you weren't or wouldn't do... again. For the third or 4th time...

Not a legal analysis. But a pretty feasible take on my behalf, since you interjected.

Do you think Wyndham continuing to accept reservations for dates they know they have no intention of honoring is acting in good faith?

I give you permission to respond to that one.

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[dioxide45]

The minutes from the Orlando International September 10 Special Membership Meeting says they intend to honor Week 52 reservations. No new reservations starting after December 31, 2025 and no reservation continuing beyond January 3, 2026.

One bit of surprise from the attendees (in person, via Zoom, or telephone call-ins). Most, at least the ones who raised their hand, were apparently fixed week owners and had no concept of how points work. Also, they were clueless about Club Wyndham Access. There were questions about the seventy CWA resorts -- are they just hotel rooms? are they as roomy and comfortable as OIRC? And so on.

One guy complained about the lack of communication regarding the proposal to sell the property. Turns out he ignored the proxy notice for the August 5 meeting, thinking it was just for the annual meeting, approve previous meeting minutes, election of BoD replacements, etc. The only thing that made him pay any attention was the proxy for the second meeting. He wondered why he got two so close together and read the second one. He still complained about the lack of a notice!

Will fixed unconverted deeds even be given the option of converting to CWA? I understand that the replacement with CWA (or something else) is written into the FairShare Trust. Unconverted weeks aren't part of FairShare, so Wyndham wouldn't be bound to provide those owners any replacement. At least that is what my dive into AI told me about it. I suppose it is possible that AI was wrong?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Will fixed unconverted deeds even be given the option of converting to CWA? I understand that the replacement with CWA (or something else) is written into the FairShare Trust. Unconverted weeks aren't part of FairShare, so Wyndham wouldn't be bound to provide those owners any replacement. At least that is what my dive into AI told me about it. I suppose it is possible that AI was wrong?

Yes - there's a FAQ item in the 1st post addressing this question. Fixed interval week owners in good standing will be offered a CWA points swap based upon the points values for the week(s) in question supplied in the Member directory points charts. For those who own floating weeks, there should be a CWA points swap option as well - basically using an average of the points values across all seasons, to the best of my understanding, subject to change. The only owners not eligible for the CWA fixed week point swaps will be whole owners, basically those owners that own all 52 intervals for a particular week at a resort. There are some of these types of owners at Wyndham Shawnee and, ironically, KBV from what I've observed, and I'd imagine there are some whole owners at other impacted resorts as well.

 

[Jan M.]

This is discouraging. I just filed and paid the transfer fees of 800 bucks to take over 2 deeded timeshare for one of the properties listed. At this time Wyndham is processing the transfer. If this property closes I guess I am out the money? Frustrating that if Wyndham new 4-5 months ago (when the process started) that this property was possibly going to close, in my opinion they should have spoken up and said something, instead they just keep taking the money.

In light of what's happening with the resort(s), Wyndham might be holding up the transfer and will reject it after the vote..