[ALL DEBATE CONTENT REMOVED FROM ORIGINAL THREAD PLACED HERE] All debate topics for the ongoing Wyndham resort closure actions...

[HitchHiker71]

This thread will serve as a new thread and the ONLY thread where ongoing debates about legalities and other sundry topics surrounding the removal of a handful of Wyndham resorts that is being tracked in the following thread: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/w...post-for-this-unfolding-set-of-events.375888/

This is being done so as to no longer gum up the core thread with a bunch of questions that many here on TUG don't see any value in having to decipher and read/skip through when trying to find actionable information.

 

[Rolltydr]

I'm specifically referring to your comment that "having a plan in place goes both ways." Except it doesn't - it only goes one way for the thousands of owners who have no knowledge of this. They've never been given a chance to make a new plan. That's all. A little communication goes a long way - for instance, as Hitchhiker has suggested, merely sending out a mass email with the (scant) information that was quietly posted in the resort news section of the website. If they can post it, they can push it out. But they haven't even bothered.

The scant information on the website contains the following statements:
1. We will work with HOA boards in certain locations to determine the future for their respective properties. Owners with interest in these locations will be contacted by their HOA board directly.
2. If you have already made a reservation at one of these resorts, don’t worry. All existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025.

So, the information will come from the HOA's directly, not from, or through, Wyndham. That almost certainly has to be due to legal and/or contractual reasons. I would also surmise that to mean that Wyndham has said all it can legally say up to this point. @HitchHiker71 has stated that several times in this thread.

Existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025. That tells me if I have a 2026 reservation, I need to make other plans. How much more do they have to say to convince someone otherwise?

I admire you for wanting to make every owner aware. That's very admirable. However, with tens of thousands of owners, that's impossible. You can't force people to pay attention to something they never pay attention to.

The process will play out on it's on timeline when the HOA's actually vote and make binding decisions, and the schedule set by the bankruptcy court. Nothing will be final until the judge in the case renders a decision. And, the judge is only interested in the law and their own judicial calendar.

 

[dioxide45]

2. If you have already made a reservation at one of these resorts, don’t worry. All existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025.

Existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025. That tells me if I have a 2026 reservation, I need to make other plans. How much more do they have to say to convince someone otherwise?

That's kind of having to read between the lines though, isn't it? Why not say instead;

If you have already made a 2025 reservation at one of these resorts, don’t worry. All existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025. If you have a 2026 reservation, we don't know WTF is going to happen.

 

[Floridaman76]

The scant information on the website contains the following statements:
1. We will work with HOA boards in certain locations to determine the future for their respective properties. Owners with interest in these locations will be contacted by their HOA board directly.
2. If you have already made a reservation at one of these resorts, don’t worry. All existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025.

So, the information will come from the HOA's directly, not from, or through, Wyndham. That almost certainly has to be due to legal and/or contractual reasons. I would also surmise that to mean that Wyndham has said all it can legally say up to this point. @HitchHiker71 has stated that several times in this thread.

Existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025. That tells me if I have a 2026 reservation, I need to make other plans. How much more do they have to say to convince someone otherwise?

I admire you for wanting to make every owner aware. That's very admirable. However, with tens of thousands of owners, that's impossible. You can't force people to pay attention to something they never pay attention to.

The process will play out on it's on timeline when the HOA's actually vote and make binding decisions, and the schedule set by the bankruptcy court. Nothing will be final until the judge in the case renders a decision. And, the judge is only interested in the law and their own judicial calendar.

I don't know if you are just being daft at this point or just not seeing the big picture, deliberately or not. But it's pretty clear that a huge percentage of owners would have no idea that these resorts are closing 12/31 because nobody has been officially noticed, nor has the ability to reserve the resorts in question been removed.

So... how or why would somebody who has reservations AT an affected resort even KNOW at this point that the resort was closing unless they were on TUG or some other online timeshare forum that has been discussing this, or on one of the unofficial Facebook groups which have been discussing this.

To my knowledge Wyndham has not even posted a list of potential closings yet.

So... again, HOW WOULD THEY KNOW???

How or WHY would someone "make alternative plans" for a resort that they are UNAWARE IS CLOSING???

Asking for a friend... because feigning ignorance as a corporation in the business of providing lodging and "vacations", who have let their employees know the resort is closing and they will be out of a job on 12/31, but NOT notifying their customers who have had bookings for potentially MONTHS now that the resort is closing in just over 90 days seems incompetent to maliciously negligent

Hiding behind some sort of theoretical legalese seems like a complete cop-out

 

[Floridaman76]

I see no inventory at OIRC after12/31/25. Are we happy now

I spot checked the following resorts and they are still bookable past 12/31/25, so... no

Fairfield Glade
Fairfield Mountains (Lake Lure)
Patriots Place
Bentley Brook

Orlando International appears blocked out after 12/17/2025, coincidence or not.

Something I have not said to this point is, I have a reservation at one of the affected resorts later in 2026 that I made well before this news broke, and as of this moment have not cancelled it yet, in case these dates slipped. No notification from Wyndham to people who have bookings in 2026 at at least some of the resorts in question.

That, is why I keep pushing this, even though I don't own at any of the affected resorts, I have some "skin in the game" so to speak.

 

[Rolltydr]

That's kind of having to read between the lines though, isn't it? Why not say instead;

If you have already made a 2025 reservation at one of these resorts, don’t worry. All existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025. If you have a 2026 reservation, we don't know WTF is going to happen.

Because they don't. It is in the hands of the HOA's and bankruptcy judge. Wyndham is hoping for a certain outcome but judges surprise people all the time.

 

[jp10558]

The scant information on the website contains the following statements:
1. We will work with HOA boards in certain locations to determine the future for their respective properties. Owners with interest in these locations will be contacted by their HOA board directly.
2. If you have already made a reservation at one of these resorts, don’t worry. All existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025.

So, the information will come from the HOA's directly, not from, or through, Wyndham. That almost certainly has to be due to legal and/or contractual reasons. I would also surmise that to mean that Wyndham has said all it can legally say up to this point. @HitchHiker71 has stated that several times in this thread.

Existing reservations will be honored through the end of 2025. That tells me if I have a 2026 reservation, I need to make other plans. How much more do they have to say to convince someone otherwise?

I admire you for wanting to make every owner aware. That's very admirable. However, with tens of thousands of owners, that's impossible. You can't force people to pay attention to something they never pay attention to.

The process will play out on it's on timeline when the HOA's actually vote and make binding decisions, and the schedule set by the bankruptcy court. Nothing will be final until the judge in the case renders a decision. And, the judge is only interested in the law and their own judicial calendar.

Ahh yes, the Hitchikers Guide notice:

"

There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams."​

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”​

Wyndham has about done the same here... the notice is on a third party forum where people have basically had to red string the conspiracy theory dots to make a supposed list of affected resorts that may have reservations cancelled. Shame on those customers / owners / renters (what about rentals from Extra Vacations or RCI etc who would have less than 0 reason to be on TUG or know they necessarily rented a timeshare from Wyndham.com or wherever site) for not "really paying attention".

 

[jp10558]

Because they don't. It is in the hands of the HOA's and bankruptcy judge. Wyndham is hoping for a certain outcome but judges surprise people all the time.

What is the imagined judge decision that would have Wyndham unable to remove resorts per this thread? Do we really think a judge is going to rule at ALL in the next 3 months or so for ALL the resorts? So now the people with reservations ought to watch court proceedings in 13 or so different cases to know if they'll have reservations in 2026?

That you're defending this debacle is astounding to me...

No one has explained how if Wyndham turns off the computer system for the resort on 12/31/25 how even if the HOA votes to IDK... not leave Club Wyndham ... how they would ever make that happen. I don't see how the reservations could possibly be kept, and to not say that is pretty bad, and to only allude to it in a basically hidden post referenced only to most by internet forum rumors is . . . in my mind indefensible.

 

[Rolltydr]

I don't know if you are just being daft at this point or just not seeing the big picture, deliberately or not. But it's pretty clear that a huge percentage of owners would have no idea that these resorts are closing 12/31 because nobody has been officially noticed, nor has the ability to reserve the resorts in question been removed.

So... how or why would somebody who has reservations AT an affected resort even KNOW at this point that the resort was closing unless they were on TUG or some other online timeshare forum that has been discussing this, or on one of the unofficial Facebook groups which have been discussing this.

To my knowledge Wyndham has not even posted a list of potential closings yet.

So... again, HOW WOULD THEY KNOW???

How or WHY would someone "make alternative plans" for a resort that they are UNAWARE IS CLOSING???

Asking for a friend... because feigning ignorance as a corporation in the business of providing lodging and "vacations", who have let their employees know the resort is closing and they will be out of a job on 12/31, but NOT notifying their customers who have had bookings for potentially MONTHS now that the resort is closing in just over 90 days seems incompetent to maliciously negligent

Hiding behind some sort of theoretical legalese seems like a complete cop-out

Rinse and repeat: It is in the hands of the HOA's and bankruptcy judge. Wyndham is hoping for a certain outcome but judges surprise people all the time.
You've made a ton of suppositions and accusations in this thread based on nothing but your own opinion. The great majority of them, you have not backed up with fact, but just more of your opinions. You are free to have all the opinions, unsubstantiated as they may be, you want. They don't change anything. You just get all worked up and use your caps key and bold letters to show your anger. All your anger means nothing to Wyndham, the multiple HOA's involved, or to the court. Or, to me, for that matter. So, settle down. Stop questioning people's intelligence just because they disagree with you and wait for this to play out. Maybe even have a cold one and enjoy the nice cool Florida weather we're having right now.

 

[paxsarah]

Because they don't. It is in the hands of the HOA's and bankruptcy judge. Wyndham is hoping for a certain outcome but judges surprise people all the time.

It doesn't take a judge to suspend reservations and occupancy, just the HOA. And the HOA just did it for OIRC, which is no surprise to anyone.

 

[Rolltydr]

It doesn't take a judge to suspend reservations and occupancy, just the HOA. And the HOA just did it for OIRC, which is no surprise to anyone.

So, the process is playing out. The HOA held the vote. It passed. Wyndham shut down reservations. Exactly as it should. This is an orderly process. Making announcements and decisions before votes have been held would be a disorderly process.

 

[Floridaman76]

So, the process is playing out. The HOA held the vote. It passed. Wyndham shut down reservations. Exactly as it should. This is an orderly process. Making announcements and decisions before votes have been held would be a disorderly process.

What law or legality would Wyndham be breaking to send out an email to the ENTIRE OWNERSHIP GROUP with a definitive list of resorts, letting people know that presumably these resorts will be closing on 12/31?

Advising them that they should likely make alternative arrangements now (actually, back in JULY).

Or at least if not to the entire ownership group, to owners which have made reservations. Also if they chose to do this, they could set up an automated system to notify people who made bookings at the affected resorts of the potential consequences.

What harm would that have done? None. On the contrary that is what proactive good customer service would dictate.

But here we are...

And as usual, lawyers defending the ineptitude and incompetence. I'm sure there's billable hours in here somewhere, for some of WYN's lawyers or, outside counsel.

 

[Rolltydr]

This is the difference between me and you; when I don’t know something, I say I don’t know. You presume to know and keep doubling down. I don’t see what good comes from that. I’m not in those rooms and I don’t know what those people know, so I won’t presume to know why they made the decisions they made. I know they had reasons. I have no idea if their reasons were good or bad. But, they made them and will have to live with them.

 

[Floridaman76]

This is the difference between me and you; when I don’t know something, I say I don’t know. You presume to know and keep doubling down. I don’t see what good comes from that. I’m not in those rooms and I don’t know what those people know, so I won’t presume to know why they made the decisions they made. I know they had reasons. I have no idea if their reasons were good or bad. But, they made them and will have to live with them.

And you call me out for doubling down for berating Wyndham's poor customer service, yet you have doubled and tripled down defending them. That's choice... chef's kiss

 

[HitchHiker71]

It doesn't take a judge to suspend reservations and occupancy, just the HOA. And the HOA just did it for OIRC, which is no surprise to anyone.

That’s correct - hence why all along I have clearly indicated that until the HOA votes cross a certain threshold, all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth is irrelevant. Once that threshold is crossed, the resort manager is then able to take action to limit future resort availability. Believe it or not, Wyndham cannot just suspend resort availability for no good reason. Sure we have seen glitches in the system over time along this line, but that is not intentional, and is clearly an apples and oranges type comparison.


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[HitchHiker71]

What law or legality would Wyndham be breaking to send out an email to the ENTIRE OWNERSHIP GROUP with a definitive list of resorts, letting people know that presumably these resorts will be closing on 12/31?

Advising them that they should likely make alternative arrangements now (actually, back in JULY).

Or at least if not to the entire ownership group, to owners which have made reservations. Also if they chose to do this, they could set up an automated system to notify people who made bookings at the affected resorts of the potential consequences.

What harm would that have done? None. On the contrary that is what proactive good customer service would dictate.

But here we are...

And as usual, lawyers defending the ineptitude and incompetence. I'm sure there's billable hours in here somewhere, for some of WYN's lawyers or, outside counsel.

I’m fairly certain given the untested explicit legal processes being used to remove these resorts from the system, Wyndham and any lawyers involved would exercise caution. Communicating future expectations based upon untested assumptions to the entire ownership base comes with legal risk. Just ask any lawyer. There are several on this thread. Following the law generally results in no harm. Following PR temptations and getting too far out in front of untested legal processes that could easily alter expected outcomes can easily result in a lot of harm.

For my part personally, I’m not saying I like the way this is transpiring, I do not, but I also see both sides, which is what I always try to do in every scenario in my life, and last time I checked, I’m also one of only a select few on this entire thread who is actually working directly with Wyndham to understand both sides explicitly - whether that be Wyndham corporate or the impacted HOAs. Almost everyone else is just making things up in comparison, largely based upon their own personal opinions and values, which is largely the point of this forum really, so it is welcome, but also a bit frustrating to witness at times.

 

[jp10558]

So, the process is playing out. The HOA held the vote. It passed. Wyndham shut down reservations. Exactly as it should. This is an orderly process. Making announcements and decisions before votes have been held would be a disorderly process.

I disagree, this seems pretty disorderly, or else all the people on this forum wouldn't be posting wondering what the heck is going on. An orderly process would IMO be to start all the votes 1-2 years before the drop dead date so no one would be wondering "should I book for the XX time in the future" or "What is going to happen when I booked and was confirmed months after the "secret" drop dead date?". So that once the decisions are made, all existing reservations can be honored and no ones after the furthest in the future it could be are accepted.

 

[dioxide45]

From a legal standpoint, Wyndham could prevent Club bookings at any time. They are under no obligation to legally provide exchanges through point bookings. I would see the only legal reservations they may still have to allow to be made, until an owner vote is held, is home resort reservations made by owners who own at the resort.

 

[jp10558]

This is the difference between me and you; when I don’t know something, I say I don’t know. You presume to know and keep doubling down. I don’t see what good comes from that. I’m not in those rooms and I don’t know what those people know, so I won’t presume to know why they made the decisions they made. I know they had reasons. I have no idea if their reasons were good or bad. But, they made them and will have to live with them.

Except, you're clearly saying "because of legal reasons this is an orderly / good process". I'm saying the opposite with as much knowledge and speculation as you. If you were only saying "I don't know" - you wouldn't be arguing that we do know it's a "legal restriction" that so far no one has given any example, hypothetical or earlier resort closure that are analogous where they couldn't tell people about it till they (apparently) show up to try and check in in some cases in 2026. No, what we've seen is examples from other closing resorts that do inform owners and provide guidance, the exact opposite than what Wyndham is doing, and I don't buy the argument that there is a law against doing so that everyone but Wyndham is violating.

 

[jp10558]

From a legal standpoint, Wyndham could prevent Club bookings at any time. They are under no obligation to legally provide exchanges through point bookings. I would see the only legal reservations they may still have to allow to be made, until an owner vote is held, is home resort reservations made by owners who own at the resort.

Exactly! There's also no reason I have seen pointed to that Wyndham has to let anyone book anything specific held by CWA, as long as they can book something. I really struggle to see what in all the docs posted would make them do exchange or CWA bookings, as long as they don't block all bookings. If they had to "make something up" to appease this person insisting Wyndham allow what's basically phantom availability here to remain, they could claim the resort is in Maintenance till next year. They do that for buildings, pools, etc all the time.

Also, and I've mentioned this at least twice - there is literally NO WAY that Wyndham legally must end bookings or management at the end of this year. There is no conceivable legal reason that they couldn't have kept operating completely as normal until 13 months after an HOA vote to enter Chapter 11 or close, and therefore not have any possibility of a hanging booking.

 

[jp10558]

AND that should be communicated... you know, so PEOPLE KNOW THIS IS COMING and their planned vacation is not destroyed at the last minute.

Exactly. It seems like the Wyndham defenders here are saying it's both legally required and "orderly" that someone who shows up for a booking in 2026 just rolls up to a locked gate and empty resort, probably without even a paper sign saying "we're closed", just an abandoned property - like we're crazy to think that is unacceptable. Or to think that we'd love someone to explain the law that requires THAT.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I disagree, this seems pretty disorderly, or else all the people on this forum wouldn't be posting wondering what the heck is going on. An orderly process would IMO be to start all the votes 1-2 years before the drop dead date so no one would be wondering "should I book for the XX time in the future" or "What is going to happen when I booked and was confirmed months after the "secret" drop dead date?". So that once the decisions are made, all existing reservations can be honored and no ones after the furthest in the future it could be are accepted.

The lack of communication to the ownership base doesn’t necessarily mean it’s disorderly, it simply means we are collectivity uniformed as to the specifics of the legal and procedural processes in play. Wyndham is under no obligation to disclose their impacted resort lists or disposition plans. They have explicitly indicated this will be handled by the HOAs at the impacted resorts.

A communication plan is typically a part of an overall plan - which again - has been to a limited extent communicated via the published missive in July. Is that sufficient? Not in my view, I would have sent an email blast out to the ownership base pointing back to that missive at the very least. Would that have put pressure and added costs onto the Wyndham customer service departments? Absolutely. Quite obviously, Wyndham has decided on some level that the cost of doing so is greater than the cost of not doing so. Whether we all agree with that decision is up for debate, but nothing we say or do is likely going to change the outcome.


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[HitchHiker71]

From a legal standpoint, Wyndham could prevent Club bookings at any time. They are under no obligation to legally provide exchanges through point bookings. I would see the only legal reservations they may still have to allow to be made, until an owner vote is held, is home resort reservations made by owners who own at the resort.

Please point me toward the governing trust documentation that provides for this legal standpoint you’re referring to. Be specific.


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[HitchHiker71]

Except, you're clearly saying "because of legal reasons this is an orderly / good process". I'm saying the opposite with as much knowledge and speculation as you. If you were only saying "I don't know" - you wouldn't be arguing that we do know it's a "legal restriction" that so far no one has given any example, hypothetical or earlier resort closure that are analogous where they couldn't tell people about it till they (apparently) show up to try and check in in some cases in 2026. No, what we've seen is examples from other closing resorts that do inform owners and provide guidance, the exact opposite than what Wyndham is doing, and I don't buy the argument that there is a law against doing so that everyone but Wyndham is violating.

Unless those other resorts used a bankruptcy process to accelerate closure, and potientially override the member voting process, then you are comparing apples and oranges. Using a traditional resort closure process is not in scope here. To the best of my understanding, this entire process is nascent in nature and not without some level of unprecedence. The legal system works primarily based on precedence, hence the uncertainty factors involved that likely have the lawyers recommending Wyndham stay silent until this process has played out beyond certain established thresholds. It is, after all, primarily a legal matter at the end of the day.


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[HitchHiker71]

Also, and I've mentioned this at least twice - there is literally NO WAY that Wyndham legally must end bookings or management at the end of this year. There is no conceivable legal reason that they couldn't have kept operating completely as normal until 13 months after an HOA vote to enter Chapter 11 or close, and therefore not have any possibility of a hanging booking.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting anywhere that Wyndham is legally obligated to end bookings or management by year end. This is obviously a goal that Wyndham has decided upon primarily to simplify the management of these resorts given the calendar year end date, which avoids the headaches of having to deal with 2026 resort operations, points contract provisions, reservations, etc., to say nothing of the fiscal year end expense related items. I’d surmise this date isn’t written in stone for every resort given the bankruptcy approaches in play, but that is the intended outcome at least for now. As @bnoble has repeatedly pointed out, Wyndham can essentially remove resorts from Club Wyndham at their discretion. Given they have already informed the employees supporting these resorts that their employment will end on 12/31/2025, I’d assign high confidence this date isn’t going to change for any of the impacted resorts unless the legal proceedings require it.


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