Another blow for point users

[JonP]

Following the recent mass increase in hotel categories the points required for stay anytime awards will shortly be dramatically increased.

'Effective 1st June 2007, Stay Anytime rewards will have a point-requirement increase to 100% over Standard Rewards. Stay Anytime rewards allow you to override blackout dates and other restrictions. The new pricing will apply to Stay Anytime reservations booked on or after
1st June 2007.'

This continued devaluation seriously questions the exchange of weeks to MR points. I have been a big supporter of the MVCI product and particularly the option to access Marriott Hotels when I’ve chosen not to use my timeshare weeks. However this is now becoming totally unfeasible. MVCI continue to promote this option vigorously and at European resorts, such things as ‘Point accelerator Programs’ (basically buying low MF units and converting annually to points). At present you’re lucky to get a Courtyard room for a week in exchange for your MVCI week.

Many, including myself have purchased developer weeks with the knowledge of re-sale but want the points option as it suits there vacation options. This is no longer the case and MVCI sales will find it increasingly difficult to use this program as a selling point in the future.

However, this could easily be corrected by MVCI by increasing the points given per week to keep in touch with the increase applied to the cost to redeem hotel awards and increased room rates.

 

[Steamboat Bill]

However, this could easily be corrected by MVCI by increasing the points given per week to keep in touch with the increase applied to the cost to redeem hotel awards and increased room rates.

That, unfortunately, will probably never happen.

 

[camachinist]

When we bought at NCV in 2004, surrender points for Platinum were EOY and 110K. I've heard from two sources now that surrender points are 125K now for new sales. I'm unclear as to whether this affects historical surrender parameters or not. I believe the surrender is still EOY though we were offered a deal last year to convert our weeks to EY if we bought another interval (which I declined).

Any other annecdotes around the system?

Pat

 

[winger]

this is getting a little rediculous from an MVCI owner's standpoint. Any suggestions (like top 5) things we can do collectively to express our displeasure at the MRP devaluation and MF increases this past year? I have at least five friends who own Marriott who are not part of TUG and don't have time to give a hoot but I am sure if I brought up pts devaluation to them, they would be interested in signing some 'class' letter or similar to send to executives at MAR/MVCI

 

[Big Matt]

I really don't understand why people are acting like a point devaluation wouldn't occur (to them). There have been several in the last 10 years, and they will keep occurring.

Your easiest way to hedge your bets is to use your points as soon as you have enough for a travel package.

Winger,
I think the easiest way to get Marriott's attention is to write them telling them how dissatisfied you are about your ability to trade your week for points. That's about all you can do.

 

[PerryM]

All right...

The decision to buy Marriott’s resale and save 40% may have just gotten easier. I’m sure the Marriott salesrep will gladly discuss the options with new owners. Let's see, reduced MRP usage or resales - which do you think the salesrep will side with?

This could result in more demand for resales and thus higher resale prices – closing that 40% gap, of resales to developer sales, and reducing the pressure on ROFR.

This could be great news all around.

 

[camachinist]

I see it this way. Marriott is smart. They've got lots of money. They've got lots of lawyers writing those lovely contracts. They know they have you. The trick is making you think you like it

That said, they have done well. Good on them...

Complain? Sure, maybe we can run off some customers. Marriott doesn't care because they don't own anything. We'd just hurt ourselves in the long run. Sell? Sure, why not? Then Marriott won't have to worry about points surrender for that interval, ever.

hehe, what fun....

IMO, what we're seeing is the early-middle stages of a debacle brewing. I began to see it in early 2005. As anyone keeping up on mortgage defaults and arrears likely knows, the era of gluttonism is ending. Timeshares are luxuries. Someone had better tell Marriott

Pat

 

[JonP]

I understand the need for Marriott to increase the points required for hotel award redemptions, that’s just inflation. What bothers me is that one of the major selling points which were fiercely promoted at the time I purchased my week(s) was that these could be exchanged for points and redeemed for at least a Cat 5 hotel. At the time there were several Cat 5’s (such as Son Antem which is the hotel which shares the MVCI resort in Mallorca); now there are very few resort hotels that are Cat 5 (Son Antem is now Cat 6).

Why can’t Marriott index link the redemption rate of points in some way as this current level of devaluation cannot be sustained. MVCI are very dependant upon referral’s and this continual devaluation of weeks redemption cannot be sustained and may in time have a serious effect should this not be properly addressed.

 

[PerryM]

Look! Up in the sky...

I understand the need for Marriott to increase the points required for hotel award redemptions, that’s just inflation. What bothers me is that one of the major selling points which were fiercely promoted at the time I purchased my week(s) was that these could be exchanged for points and redeemed for at least a Cat 5 hotel. At the time there were several Cat 5’s (such as Son Antem which is the hotel which shares the MVCI resort in Mallorca); now there are very few resort hotels that are Cat 5 (Son Antem is now Cat 6).

Why can’t Marriott index link the redemption rate of points in some way as this current level of devaluation cannot be sustained. MVCI are very dependant upon referral’s and this continual devaluation of weeks redemption cannot be sustained and may in time have a serious effect should this not be properly addressed.

"Offer subject to change without notice" is somewhere in the fine print in the closing documents each Marriott owner signs. They are very serious about that.

The salesrep may have boasted about the great value of MRP, but in his mind he knows that the little phrase above makes him invincible - Look, up in the sky is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Super Salesman.

 

[camachinist]

Well, now that they've doubled the points redemption premium for Stay Anytime, I'm guessing, once the post-Freddie rancor dies down and the PR machine gets the spin out, the real devaluation will start. The trick is getting the negative stuff far enough behind them for next year's Freddie's but not spacing the bad news items too close to each other. Of course, if they see the fallout this year isn't too bad, you can expect the next blow to come just after next year's Freddie's, like it did this year.

And to think, people had to go to college to learn to do this stuff

Pat

 

[JonP]

"Offer subject to change without notice" is somewhere in the fine print in the closing documents each Marriott owner signs. They are very serious about that.

The salesrep may have boasted about the great value of MRP, but in his mind he knows that the little phrase above makes him invincible - Look, up in the sky is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Super Salesman.

PerryM

I have had great use of the MRP and hopefully will do in many years to come. Since purchasing my MVCI weeks I have been a very loyal Marriott customer and a Platinum Elite member for a few years (which is difficult to achieve in the UK!). As hotel room rates have increased so has my point’s accrual, so devaluation in this respect can only be expected.

However, it is not the same for MVCI weeks, MF’s increase annually along with room rates but point’s redemption remains static. Yes salesrep’s may have boasted about the great value of the MRP and in my view as an MVCI owner this has been the case to date. My family have had wonderful holiday’s which would not have been possible without this program.

I am aware of the small print and wouldn’t expect anything otherwise. But if MVCI are to continue promoting the redemption of weeks for points when selling timeshares some adjustment needs to be made as there is absolutely no point buying developer weeks (pre-construction of course!).

 

[Bill4728]

"Stay anytime" doesn't mean "stay anytime"!!

Marriott hotels have the right to NOT allow you to use "stay anytime" if the hotel doesn't want to do it. We stayed in a Courtyard in Cocoa Beach and were blacked out so I ask to use "stay anytime". I was told the hotel didn't have to offer "stay anytime" if it doesn't want to. Even when they have rooms.

So you can't even count on "Stay anytime".

 

[PerryM]

The trash bag folks know...

JonP,

I understand your argument, but it will fall on deaf ears (no disrespect to you).

If I remember correctly, the fine print also stated “Offer subject to removal at anytime” too. So count yourselves lucky that you were just devalued and not eliminated.

This is just another case where you have to have a positive outlook and see what else might be a “side effect” to this action which we can exploit to our benefit.

Just like the trash bag folks say “Don’t get mad, get even” (Well; close)

 

[Big Matt]

Just to follow up on Perry's comments...

Marriott can discontinue its loyalty program at any time, with or without notice. If they wanted to, they could say: "Poof" and not more points at all.

 

[winger]

one possible twist, which CAMachinist may have mentioned w/ his NCV resort... increase annual pt converstion for new purchasers, leave us poor existing owners stuck at original levels.

 

[potchak]

Let's face it folks, Marriott is not going to do anything about the amount of points you get when you surrender your week until it is detrimental to them.

They give you points for your week so they can use that week for other Marriott rewards members that want to trade in their points for a MVCI unit. My 2 bd unit Plat Summer Timberlodge unit gets me only 110K, but yet, they get 150K for the week, thereby profitting 40K points. They will not increase the number of points for your week without increasing the number of points to get a week at an MVCI location.

Marriott will not try to change what they do unless it benefits them, not because their owners are pissed. What ultimately will happen is people simply will not trade in their unit for points and the more educated people (speaking of tuggers) will buy resale because the points option will not be worth it. Will that increase the resales prices so they are comparable to Developer, my guess is not a chance. You will never bridge the gap because resales will not have the marketing expense that the developers do. However, the developer will need to come up with a new hook because the MRP's will not do the trick for an educated buyer.

Right now I am kicking myself for buying developer with all the changes that are occuring, but will that stop me from enjoying the weeks that we purchased- ABSOLUTELY NOT! More than likely I will trade in my Timberlodge unit to II instead of trading it in for points.

Will I still visit Marriott locations and try to collect more MRP's-- YUP! I now have the Marriott's reward visa, so I wrack up about 40K points a yr just with my purchases and MF's. That does not include any points I get for spending at a Marriott which are 10 MRP's/$ spent for being a member, then another 5 for putting it on the Visa. So it will take time (about 8yrs) to get to the point where we can go on another MRP trip, but at the rate we are going with AC's (getting 1 every yr for our week, making 2 vacations a yr), I do not mind so much!

 

[MOXJO7282]

However, the developer will need to come up with a new hook because the MRP's will not do the trick for an educated buyer.

This is what I am wondering. Prime weeks at the top properties will continue to sell themselves, but what about the over developed areas and shoulder season weeks? How will they continue to sell them, without being able to offer reward points value? Are there that many unsuspecting buyers who will still fall for the TS vs hotel room pitch? And what happens when they stop selling those weeks? How does that affect trade and rental possibilities? Does it mean higher MFs and less renters seeking your unit? That remains to be seen.

Regards.
Joe

 

[m61376]

This is what I am wondering. Prime weeks at the top properties will continue to sell themselves, but what about the over developed areas and shoulder season weeks? How will they continue to sell them, without being able to offer reward points value? Are there that many unsuspecting buyers who will still fall for the TS vs hotel room pitch? And what happens when they stop selling those weeks? How does that affect trade and rental possibilities? Does it mean higher MFs and less renters seeking your unit? That remains to be seen.

Regards.
Joe

There are lots of timeshare properties that other developers sell successfully without trading for points options. I really do believe that there are many unsuspecting buyers that buy because of the TS vs hotel room pitch and to create family memories, etc., and that points are just icing on the cake for many purchasers. Maybe I am cynical, but people on this forum are not the average buyers. I have friends who cought straight from Marriott and look at me in amazement when I tell them I bought resale (and some I believe with a certain degree of skepticism when I tell them it is exactly the same except for trading for points). These are educated, intelligent people- yet gullible when it comes to timeshare sales hype.

I really think the affect on sales will be minimal, esp. for first time buyers.

 

[winger]

There are lots of timeshare properties that other developers sell successfully without trading for points options. I really do believe that there are many unsuspecting buyers that buy because of the TS vs hotel room pitch and to create family memories, etc., and that points are just icing on the cake for many purchasers. Maybe I am cynical, but people on this forum are not the average buyers. I have friends who cought straight from Marriott and look at me in amazement when I tell them I bought resale (and some I believe with a certain degree of skepticism when I tell them it is exactly the same except for trading for points). These are educated, intelligent people- yet gullible when it comes to timeshare sales hype.

I really think the affect on sales will be minimal, esp. for first time buyers.

But even for 1st time TS buyers, I would think MVCI salesmen are pitching the points option as a good supplement to MAR ts's which differentiates MVCI from all other ts's. Esp w/ Marriott prices so high, they HAVE to justify buying MVCI vs. Joe TS down the block, even to 1st time buyers.

 

[Eric]

The points can no more be changed then changing the whole resort to fixed weeks.

That, unfortunately, will probably never happen.

 

[taffy19]

I am aware of the small print and wouldn’t expect anything otherwise. But if MVCI are to continue promoting the redemption of weeks for points when selling timeshares some adjustment needs to be made as there is absolutely no point buying developer weeks (pre-construction of course!).

I agree with you so I am wondering too what hook (see post #16) they will come up with next because The Marriott as well as other developers have competition with the WWW because many more people start doing searches now. Vacationers may still buy on the spot but right after they buy, they head for the Internet and start searching what they got themselves into and before you know they are reading this forum here and see all the re-sales elsewhere too. The younger people are growing up now and they have used a computer all their life so know all the tricks.

I believe that the Marriott will have to come up with additional perks and goodies that will not be transferable unless you buy re-sale through the Marriott direct. With floating units it could be that the view units are first given to people who bought from the developer direct. In other words, their most "loyal" (multi-week) owners get the best there is as a computer can do this with ease and very fast while you are waiting on the phone or on the internet even if they call later than someone who bought re-sale. They already have the earlier booking feature too. To us that would be a big perk for floating units as a view is more important than anything else.

Also, anyone can become a Marriott Rewards member so the only thing you lose by not buying from the Marriott direct is the first batch of MRPs because exchanging your week for MRPs is no longer in your best interest.

All developers would have happier customers anyway if they didn't tout the exchanges so much and certainly for the resorts who are affiliated with RCI. Instead, they could tout the best views and they could throw in a free spa package too if it is at a resort. They do this in Mexico already at some resorts.

 

[Hoc]

It just makes me happier and happier about my decision to eschew points as a reason for paying extortionate prices to the developer for new Marriott purchases. I came close with Newport Coast Villas when they were offering something like 500k points as a bonus for buying an odd-year Gold week at NCV (with unlimited day-use privileges, since I live nearby), and an even-year week in Arizona, for around $20k. But I decided that, as I have said for many, many years, the points system is not a good value, and just too skewed in Marriott's favor to influence my purchase decision. When I cited points devaluation as a reason not to think the value was good, many came on saying that "it would never (or rarely) happen," and that any devaluation would be minor.

Obviously, the lack of retained value in the Marriott points system is becoming clearer.

So, I think Perry's right. With this situation, choosing between developer purchases vs. resale becomes that much easier. The recent unlimited penny-a-point orgy was great for those of us who could use the points right away. But recognize that points devaluation has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. For those who pay a hefty premium to purchase Marriott timeshares from Marriott in order to participate in the points system, you are paying an upfront cost to obtain a diminishing-value asset.

Also, remember that Marriott has a history of viewing its existing owners as cash cows, with an obligation to Marriott, while Marriott tends to recognize little, if any, obligation to existing owners. IMO, that's why you see higher and higher annual fees, over and above other companies, and it's why you see Marriott dropping resorts where the owners start to complain about the fees, give Marriott any flack, or resist the increases.

Recognize this fact, and you can deal with your Marriott timeshare in a truly rational, objective manner. Buy it at a price that makes sense to you, use it in a manner most advantageous to you, and dump it when it no longer serves your needs. Don't think that Marriott is somehow going to "do something nice" for the owners who have already paid for their timeshares and are obligated to pay annual fees without question.

Chances are, in 10 years, your timeshare points trade-in will get you a one-night stay in a Courtyard room. Act accordingly.

 

[korndoc]

...remember that Marriott has a history of viewing its existing owners as cash cows, with an obligation to Marriott, while Marriott tends to recognize little, if any, obligation to existing owners. IMO, that's why you see higher and higher annual fees, over and above other companies, and it's why you see Marriott dropping resorts where the owners start to complain about the fees, give Marriott any flack, or resist the increases.

So, would anybody still recommend purchasing a Marriott timeshare, even at resale, given the higher and higher annual fees and their general attitude?

Jeff

 

[camachinist]

Amazing how such a short span of time can change one's opinion...

No, I can't say I would, perhaps the exception being to those who might purchase ours

IMO, it has nothing at all to do with the physical buildings/locations. It's how Marriott has treated its customers. Simple as that...

Pat

 

[PerryM]

Sell, sell, sell!!!

So, would anybody still recommend purchasing a Marriott timeshare, even at resale, given the higher and higher annual fees and their general attitude?

Jeff

No, I would immediately sell all Marriotts, and never buy another one either from Marriott or resale.

That way the resale prices would collapse, Marriott would initially step in and buy with the ROFR but would stop shoring up the resale market. Prices would fall like a brick.

Then 1 year from now I’d buy everyone I could get my hands on.

Sounds like a plan to me….

P.S.
Ok, I'm just kidding. MRPs are a nice "add on" and really have little to do with vacationing - even though we have 2 M of them.

There are many new alternatives the MRPs - just about anyone can make big bucks renting out their Marriott on the Internet - that did not exist when MRPs were added to the mix to make developer sales "Special".

So although I'd love to profit from this dissatisfaction of Marriott - Marriott will just keep making new resorts and the salesreps will still keep making $200k per year - same old same old.

P.P.S.
Inflation happens – our MRP have been devalued – I understand reality and the money stuffed under my mattress has the same devaluing each year I keep it there. Like I said, Inflation happens. Use your MRPs as fast as you can or inflation will get them - it's reality.

Look at it this way – we have some MRPs we got back in 1999 when we bought our first MountainSide – the price of airline tickets have gone up at least 25% since then; I can’t expect Marriott to pay for the 25% higher airline tickets can I?