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Largest EV bus maker Proterra files for bankruptcy

Yeah, you’re definitely the resident TUG anti-EV guy. Never any good news about EV from you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Did you read the very low numbers of EV buses that have been sold since 2004 in the USA and Canada?

That is a shocking low number of vehicles sold. IMHO.
 
Electric school busses make a lot of sense, especially with daily short routes. Last year, 2400 electric busses were ordered.

 
Did you read the very low numbers of EV buses that have been sold since 2004 in the USA and Canada?

That is a shocking low number of vehicles sold. IMHO.
That's too bad, because electric buses will cause less gasoline powered vehicles to be used, resulting in far less air pollutants. Meanwhile people swelter.
 
"In 2021, it became one of the largest of a slew of EV-related companies to go public via a reverse merger with a special-purpose acquisition company (SPAC). The deal netted Proterra $640 million and valued the company at $1.6 billion. "​

Be it EV's or Widgets, the fact fact that the company was formed under a SPAC means the company had two strikes against it from the beginning.

 
That's too bad, because electric buses will cause less gasoline powered vehicles to be used, resulting in far less air pollutants. Meanwhile people swelter.
Evidently, there are those who delight in vehicles spewing out noxious gasses into our environment.

Kurt
 
Guess the Government needs to Invest a couple trillion.
 
Here's an electric bus that caught fire in Connecticut last year.

 
......." they have sold 1300 buses to 130 transit agencies - since 2004"
[ Avg.Production per year = 68 ]

IMO -Greenwashing by 130 agencies - who bought an average of 10 buses each.
 
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Guess the Government needs to Invest a couple trillion.
Intentional or not, that's an exaggeration. But incentives and improved technology to increase safety and public perception will make for more renewable energy powered transport vehicles and the accompanied reduction in greenhouse gasses. This is not a revolutionary, but an evolutionary change.

Jim
 
Intentional or not, that's an exaggeration. But incentives and improved technology to increase safety and public perception will make for more renewable energy powered transport vehicles and the accompanied reduction in greenhouse gasses. This is not a revolutionary, but an evolutionary change.

Jim
The thing is that Busses are not "green" as they run mostly empty except during rush hour. This is probably a great use for electrification.
 
Electric school busses make a lot of sense, especially with daily short routes. Last year, 2400 electric busses were ordered.


After watching videos like that one from Paris of how fast a battery powered electric bus is consumed by fire after it spontaneously combusts, I would not put my grandson on one, nor would I want to ride one myself.

On the other hand, in eastern Europe, they have long used a very safe type of electric powered bus. They are referred to as trolley buses as they take their power from overhead wires like a trolley, but roll on rubber tires where they can change lanes and go with the flow of traffic like a diesel powered bus. They are very safe and efficient and I have ridden them many times.

As a reminder, here is a vdeo of that Paris EV bus fire after its battery spontaneously combusted. It is very lucky it was parked on the street with no one on it when it erupted:

 
People would have no, or very little, time to get out.
 
Most of the BEV companies aren't going to make it. A lot of people give Musk/Tesla a hard time for various reasons, some of which are legitimate, but Musk and company have always stated openly that building concept BEVs and low production niche BEVs isn't all that hard, at least when compared to mass producing BEVs like Tesla has figured out how to do. This is a sea change. BEVs are essentially computers on wheels - and are software driven. Even the legacy auto manufacturers are really struggling to mass produce BEVs and make any money. Ford is literally losing tens of thousands of dollars per BEV sold. Smaller producers like Lucid and Rivian are losing hundreds of thousands per BEV sold - though Rivian recently "dropped down" to only losing 95k per BEV sold this quarter. GM isn't even publishing their financials along this line. Mass producing software driven computers on wheels is not at all like building legacy ICE vehicles where the hundreds of systems are all built by the lowest bidder and the legacy auto manufacturer is simply in the assembly business. Ford's CEO had a moment where he openly admitted just how difficult this hurdle really is, read this post and watch the two minute video here if you're interested in understanding why Tesla has such a huge advantage:


Specific to the topic at hand - expect more companies like Proterra to file bankruptcy. Even companies like Rivian, Fisker (who already went bankrupt once), Lucid, etc., are unlikely to make it. Rivian might stand a chance - they are starting to figure out how to mass produce BEVs. Even many of the legacy auto manufacturers - while I hate to say it - likely won't be around in ten years - or if they are - not like they are today by any measure. Those who cannot figure out how to build a software defined vehicle (SDV), will eventually cease to exist IMHO. If you watch the video in the link above, you will understand the inherent challenge these companies are facing - that Tesla figured out how to do long ago now.

Perhaps just as important - perhaps most important - is the BMH/BMS as part of any SDV. BMH/BMS = Battery Management Hardware/Battery Management Software. If the BMH/BMS isn't real world tested and 99.999% reliable - then if the pack is using NMC rare earth metals that are flammable - I wouldn't consider a BEV purchase from that manufacturer. Again, Tesla has billions of miles of BMH/BMS experience under their belts - they are by far the leader as a result. I would not buy a BEV from any other manufacturer given their limited experience building BEVs - particularly building reliable BMH/BMS modules. This includes bus manufacturers or any other BEV commercial manufacturer. If Tesla built a commercial bus, then I'd be comfortable riding in it. AFAIK this isn't on their roadmap. Semi yes, commercial van yes, but no commercial bus that I've heard about. Just my two cents of course.
 
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GM invested Billions of dollars into EV prototypes back in 2008-2009
They invested millions into fuel cell vehicles as well
I suspect they threw the knowledge into the trash can because someone came in and decided to take them in a new direction
Detroit teamed up with A123 (the company that designed and built the first lithium batteries)
The cars were terrible looking and were total flops
The Chinese came in an bought the remnants of A123 and just like that the US had lost it's lead in Lithium Ion
The original guys from Tesla realized you needed some sex appeal in a new idea for a car, ran out of money. Elon bought them out using some government money
The Model S was a sexy, fast, outperformed everything comparable and ignited the EV demand
GM was ahead of the game, just did not realize how important pizzaz was.
 
There should be a door next to each seat.
Most busses allow egress through the windows (even if the don't open). You lift the frame from the bottom and push out.
 
GM invested Billions of dollars into EV prototypes back in 2008-2009
GM discovered with the EV1 that the motors emitted microwaves and had to add shielding to keep from cooking the driver's and front passenger's feet.
 
GM invested Billions of dollars into EV prototypes back in 2008-2009
They invested millions into fuel cell vehicles as well
I suspect they threw the knowledge into the trash can because someone came in and decided to take them in a new direction
Detroit teamed up with A123 (the company that designed and built the first lithium batteries)
The cars were terrible looking and were total flops
The Chinese came in an bought the remnants of A123 and just like that the US had lost it's lead in Lithium Ion
The original guys from Tesla realized you needed some sex appeal in a new idea for a car, ran out of money. Elon bought them out using some government money
The Model S was a sexy, fast, outperformed everything comparable and ignited the EV demand
GM was ahead of the game, just did not realize how important pizzaz was.
GM never built a SDV, not even close. Only Tesla has succeeded in building SDVs. Watch the video from the Ford CEO above - GM was in the same boat, merely using various parts built by the cheapest bidder, including the battery packs, and assembling the vehicles. GM is IMHO more likely to fail than Ford. They are farther behind in the learning curve in comparison. Ford realized a year ago the sea change necessary, along with VW and a few other brands, and is facing to become a SDV manufacturer. I think at least 50% of the current ICE manufacturers will be bankrupt in ten years time - or a ghost of what they are today. The incumbents in these industries rarely survive when disruption like this occurs. Blackberry, Motorola, Kodak, and the list goes on of incumbents that were giants in their respective verticals and are barely surviving today as they didn’t adapt quickly enough when the disruption wave came.
 
GM never built a SDV, not even close. Only Tesla has succeeded in building SDVs. ...
Back in the early days of the automobile many automobile companies spent fortunes on designing and perfecting safety glass with the exception of GM. William Durant took the position that it could be licensed for a fraction of the R&D cost.

Developing the expertise in-house is the sledge-hammer approach. Tesla found this out when it tried the brute force approach to robotic assembly.

Tesla MAY make them, but GM WILL service them.
 
People would have no, or very little, time to get out.

Imagine if this were a school bus driving down a busy street full of lots of small children. These things should never be allowed to be used as school buses.
 
I'm actually surprised that Toyota hasn't stepped up to the plate to build Electric or Hybrid Buses. After all, they had their first Toyota Prius roll off the assembly line back in 2001, so their technology may be miles ahead of GM.
 
You would expect to see all government agencies driving 100% electric vehicles by now. Transit and School buses are first step to zero emissions in the bus industry as they have set miles per day and don’t need luggage space. They also have the ability to charge overnight at the same location every night. Though batteries maybe a stepping stone to a better technology.
 
I think at least 50% of the current ICE manufacturers will be bankrupt in ten years time - or a ghost of what they are today. The incumbents in these industries rarely survive when disruption like this occurs. Blackberry, Motorola, Kodak, and the list goes on of incumbents that were giants in their respective verticals and are barely surviving today as they didn’t adapt quickly enough when the disruption wave came
The difference between the examples you provide and EVs is that their products were replaced by something better, at a lower cost that consumers actually wanted to buy.

The government didn’t have to bribe consumers or pass regulations to force people to buy iPhones or digital cameras. That is genuine disruption.
 
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