[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

[Cyrus24]

So... what's the deal? Why support mega renters?

I respect them. I feel bad for what this change is doing to them. Nothing wrong with a little compassion.

At the end of the day, with this most recent bucket change all, except the mega=renters, will be better off.

 

[Eric B]

I don't think rentals should be permitted during prime season or major holidays, by any avenue including EH. JMO.

What if it was a converted week 51 reserved during ARP for the underlying week? I’m not really willing to try to suggest hard and fast rules about using something someone owns. Things they exchange into are a different matter. I think it would be more complicated for a week 51 in CWA, of course, but shouldn’t be impossible to figure out.

 

[Cyrus24]

OMG, why do you always ignore context.

He does exactly that. And, he ignores who actually writes what. I've been accused of a lot of misdeeds by the guest who ignores (a lot).

 

[am1]

Not everyone has the ability to sit around like a hawk at midnight at the 13 or 10 month mark, watching 24 hours a day.

Some of us have jobs, real jobs, not "fake travel agent" jobs...

We pay taxes on that income too... Think maybe Uncle Sam needs to take a look at some of these businesses. That would get interesting fast.

Wyndham knows all your names... you think maybe a little birdie could slip the IRS a little note? Maybe some of you not poke the bear.

But everyone could do that if they choose to. And because you cant an I did is why I was able to make it work. At 13/10 months out I had no idea who wanted to travel to Bonnet Creek for Christmas or Las Vegas for New Years but I was sure that hundreds of thousands would be. I just had to find them. No easy job as a low percentage of people knew/know about renting on timeshares on ebay or elsewhere. But I found enough of them to work to make my fake travel agent job work.

The important thing is the money I made was real as well as the happiness the renters got from their vacation.

Sadly the taxes I paid were real as well. But I learned quick to move to a place with low taxes. So in that regard it was a pleasure to pay for the lesson, even if it was costly.

 

[paxsarah]

Only so many GC's permitted per year on reservations made during Advance or Standard Reservation Periods with a more generous amount available for reservations made within the Express Reservation Period, and unlimited for VIP owner reservations booked during the Express window...

I have to say, I don’t understand this at all. If I’m booking a big trip for friends and family, I’m planning way far ahead. There’s no way I’m waiting for the dregs during the express period. I don’t know what type of owner this sort of proposal would benefit, but it’s not me (modest points, non-VIP).

 

[chapjim]

Because being a member of TUG obviously conveys knowledge of ownership of timeshare systems...

If anything, i've learned that TUG, in all honesty is a place where some mega renters shared some really bad advice which largely negatively affects normal owners.

This place seemed to in fact be an education forum for prospective mega renters. People like Ron were your pied piper...

I've been a timeshare owner a lot longer than i've been a member of TUG, so try again.

Edit: excuse me... a guest of TUG

Thanks for helping make my point.

 

[buckor]

So legit question.

This issue seems to be pretty polarizing.
…
So... what's the deal? Why support mega renters?

At one point I considered buying points strictly to use for rentals. That faded away as I saw Wyndham lock the accounts of “mega renters” for months while audits and negotiations took place.

I don’t “support” mega renters. I do, however, support people purchasing a product and being able to use it as designed and as they were told they could. It seems like a lot of that was Wyndham’s issue with the website and what the backend databases could tell the website. Obviously they are moving past some of those limitations.

I live in a very desirable summer “resort” area. Anyone is allowed to purchase a home here and use it for whatever they want, assuming the neighborhood does not have any restrictions on its use. 90% of the homes where I live are used for second homes/vacation homes/rentals. Unfortunately, that has put a lot of upward pressure on real estate prices, even before COVID (it’s been REALLY crazy since COVID hit).

None of these owners are doing anything wrong. They purchased a product (a home) that they have the right to use how they want, within any guidelines that may be set.

Where i would disagree with things is if one set of owners had to abide by one set of rules while another set had to abide by a different set of rules. A local businessman, who sits on the town council, wants to change the rules for renting homes in the area so that people have to rent for 30 days or longer, unless you stay in a hotel or hotel property. Well, he owns the 5 Star hotel in town and all its other properties. He would be able to rent his houses short-term because they technically are part of a hotel property. That I don’t agree with.

Wyndham has a system. It is up to them to enforce that system without disenfranchising owners who bought into Wyndham expecting to use their system for personal use but now cannot due to a handful of people that Wyndham cannot seem to “control.”

So, am I FOR mega renters? Not directly. I am for Wyndham owners using the system as Wyndham had designed. Am I against mega renters? Not directly. Shouldn’t any owner who wants be able to rent points they aren’t going to be able to personally use? I realize there are technicalities and intricacies I am glossing over. My point, however, is that if someone buys a product they should be able to use that product as designed…in our case, reserving rooms at resorts with points purchased, whether retail (with “club benefits”) or resale (without those benefits).

Blessings!

 

[buckor]

I don't think rentals should be permitted during prime season or major holidays, by any avenue including EH. JMO.

And that would be something I could support, especially if it spelled out by Wyndham clearly.

There is a potential problem: I’ve booked multiple rooms at resorts during Christmas, etc, for my family as well as extended family and friends. How does Wyndham differentiate between my extended family and friends that need GCs vs someone I rented to?

Not trying to argue (at all). Truly trying to think of the solution to this problem.

Blessings!

 

[VacayKat]

I have to say, I don’t understand this at all. If I’m booking a big trip for friends and family, I’m planning way far ahead. There’s no way I’m waiting for the dregs during the express period. I don’t know what type of owner this sort of proposal would benefit, but it’s not me (modest points, non-VIP).

Exactly why changes to it would irritate me.

 

[ronparise]

I find it amazing the someone would have over $400K in annual maintenance fees. That's something I can't phantom. I'm glad to see them go. They, along with other of that caliber were ruining it for owners who actually use their points for personal travel.

You say that (ruining it for owners)... But I fail to see how someone using another condo at the resort, ruins the vacation of another person in another condo

The key difference in your scenario that everyone seems to conveniently overlook is that it would be 2000 real Wyndham owners using those 700 million points - as opposed to 700 million points consumed solely by renters. This is an undeniable factual statement - and there is not a single person that can refute it.


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No one is questioning the fact that if the megarenters points were owned by someone else, someone else would be staying in the condos. Whats being questioned is the relevance. Why do you care who is in the condo next to you.

What I hear is a country club kind of attitude. You see renters as someone "less than" riff-raff perhaps. Imagine how the people that own a 100% interest in their condos at Reunion or Daytona for example, must feel about folks like us that only have a less than 2% share staying next door

 

[Lisa P]

Lets look at it from Wyndham's sales perspective. One happy owner may give them a 5% chance at possibly buying again. Where 100 renters give them at least a 20% chance of a sale.

I've never heard that guests/renters visiting on a GC would = a 20% chance of a sale. I've always read that the great majority of developer sales of Wyndham points were actually sold to existing owners. With this idea, the chance of making a developer sale to 100 vacationing owners is higher than the chance of making a sale to 100 vacationing renters, who got on vacation cheaply through renting a discounted stay from a megarenter.

I found it much easier and cheaper to just rent from a guy like @am1. No need to pay a sunk cost for VIP, be burdened with paying maintenance fees or put in count less hours looking for availability to show up.

Right to my point, above. When people are renting cheaply, they do not present a great sales opportunity to Wyndham.

I have to say, I don’t understand this at all. If I’m booking a big trip for friends and family, I’m planning way far ahead. There’s no way I’m waiting for the dregs during the express period. I don’t know what type of owner this sort of proposal would benefit, but it’s not me (modest points, non-VIP).

This is why I said "only so many" GCs for reservations made during ARP/SRP: I did not say to eliminate them. People still need to be able to reserve some trips with family and friends in prime time. But there needs to be some kind of limitation on how many, to reduce the abuse of the system by people who've bought mega-millions of points for the purpose of exploiting the reservation system to make money, while locking out regular "average Joe" owners from prime resort stays.

 

[dgalati]

Maybe that's a reasonable limitation. Only so many GC's permitted per year on reservations made during Advance or Standard Reservation Periods with a more generous amount available for reservations made within the Express Reservation Period, and unlimited for VIP owner reservations booked during the Express window... maybe also add a cap on the percentage of any resorts' rooms which may have a GC added during prime holidays, especially if there's no concurrent owner reservation for the entire duration of the GC reservation. Cancelling the owner reservation should automatically cancel the GC reservation(s) as well. IMO, owners who abuse the rules (ex., cancelling an owner reservation after the Guest has checked in) may risk losing GC privileges for a year. That may sound harsh but owners who genuinely need to cancel their trip at the last minute ought to understand the risk and let their owner reservation go to waste. JMO.

I would say eliminate any GC's attached to a reservation in the 60 day VIP discount window. This would eliminate reservations made with 1/2 the number of points creating availability for owners personal use.

 

[55plus]

While I do not see the difference, are you suggesting that rentals because they are commerce are thus hurting? I have never come across a resort I could not book if I was booking >6 months, and almost always can I find something, even within 2 weeks (2021 may and june were exceptions).
What I feel like you are suggesting is that if a rental is to occur it can not happen if someone wants to go there with their family. I think if that is the case then folks who think like this will never be happy as someone will always be renting something to regain some of the MF they pay.

I speak from personal experience. At 13 months out I can't reserve a two or three bedroom unit at Ocean Walk for Bike Week, but they can be rented for a lot more money than the cost of my points, thus commerce. So yes, I think an owner's personal use should come before someone else's commerce. Also, if you or anyone need to rent to cover maintenance fees then you and they have too many points and should unload them. If you or these same owners rent year after year it has nothing to do with too many point, it has everything to do with commerce, a.k.a., profit.

 

[troy12n]

You say that (ruining it for owners)... But I fail to see how someone using another condo at the resort, ruins the vacation of another person in another condo
...
No one is questioning the fact that if the megarenters points were owned by someone else, someone else would be staying in the condos. Whats being questioned is the relevance. Why do you care who is in the condo next to you.
...
What I hear is a country club kind of attitude. You see renters as someone "less than" riff-raff perhaps. Imagine how the people that own a 100% interest in their condos at Reunion or Daytona for example, must feel about folks like us that only have a less than 2% share staying next door

I can speak for myself... here is the difference.

I, for one, do not care who is staying in the suite next to me. I really don't.

What I care about is, if someone who is staying in a suite (any suite at the resort) who is a "guest renter" (not a guest of an owner, an anonymous paying guest who rented the stay on the open market) who is taking a stay away from an owner, who in all likelihood paid full price for their timeshare. Or at least who owns it, and is paying MF on it...

So instead we have a non-owner paying someone like you, who is taking up space or the opportunity to book, from an owner. You are enriching yourself, at the expense of the "club members" at large. The people who pay MF.

This is a difference. And one usually completely avoided when mega renters respond to such charges.

I'm not repeating it again, I have no issues with owners inviting friends or family as guests, that is indeed part of the ownership experience.

That's not what we are talking about here... we are talking about the 80 million points, hundreds of GC's, renting out entire resorts on event weekends, etc... this is the elephant in the room.

 

[troy12n]

I speak from personal experience. At 13 months out I can't reserve a two or three bedroom unit at Ocean Walk for Bike Week, but they can be rented for a lot more money than the cost of my points, thus commerce. So yes, I think an owner's personal use should come before someone else's commerce. Also, if you or anyone need to rent to cover maintenance fees then you and they have too many points and should unload them. If you or these same owners rent year after year it has nothing to do with too many point, it has everything to do with commerce, a.k.a., profit.

You mean having ~80 million points and paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in MF isn't just "I have a lot of friends and family"??

This is where the argument of "covering MF" falls flat. Because maybe you shouldn't have millions of points.

 

[Lisa P]

I fail to see how someone using another condo at the resort, ruins the vacation of another person in another condo

Ron, I'm not the person you wrote this about and I respect you enormously. But I take issue with this comment.

For us, it's not the existence of the renter in the condo next door that impacts my vacation. It's that a system that allows profitable megarenting motivates those megarenters to reserve huge blocks of prime time at resorts (naturally, for the greatest profit) and subsequently, the little guy owners (especially those with larger families who need larger units) can be effectively blocked out of vacationing at those times/places. This has happened to us several times at the 10 month mark.

This is a problem that IMO, ligitimately ought to be addressed. For us, everything else is tangential.

 

[rapmarks]

A Bluegreen owner can clarify this, but I believe they set a 10 reservation per region at one time limit to stem mega rentals

 

[55plus]

You say that (ruining it for owners)... But I fail to see how someone using another condo at the resort, ruins the vacation of another person in another condo

It does ruin someone's vacation if the resort is taken over by mega renters and availability is nil during certain timeframes. I speak from experience. I can't reserve a unit at 13 months out with my points, but I can rent it from someone for a lot more than the cost of my points. This is why I'm elated Wyndham is enforcing the no commerce activity policy. Mega renters have caused enough damage. Their actions caused the lost of some VIP benefits over the years, not to mention depriving owners of reservations at prime resorts and prime timeframes.

 

[Braindead]

@dgalati - Here you go, I had you beat by 4 years on calling for no VIP benefits for resale points.


Braindead
TUG Member
JoinedMay 23, 2016Messages2,490Reaction score1,214Points273

Jan 2, 2017

Wyndham doesn't need to change the rules!!! Just enforce the rules in place! No VIP benefits for resale points. Hardly any owners have 5 million or more developer points to tie up points on multiple prime reservations to end up with 1 reservation. No commercial renting. I'm sure there's an exemption for Extra Holidays already in place if you interpret the wording correctly. Wyndham has the authority to use its discretion.

If your reservation or points are listed or advertised on a website or through a third party that would be considered commercial by almost any court. Loss or profit doesn't matter. Commercial entities lose money everyday. Wyndham has a IT problem to fix. But I also think they are drawing out the audits to see how much business they can pickup at Extra Holidays and get a handle on how much renting was occurring. They were diffidently caught off guard at the amount of commercial renting. Extra Holidays is a great way to get new sales! If you liked your stay here let me show you how you can save money on your vacations.

Just look at TripAdvisor comments sometime. People comment on renting constantly. I looked up Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk. Mr. Weng told a client he has thousands of rentals. Shelby Resorts mentioned several times. I truely believe all of us would be surprised at the availability of prime reservations if the current rules were enforced. I don't think even some renters here realize the amount of renting currently.

I don't know how AM1 and others believe they can defend their actions in court. When they are in clear violations of the rules. Wyndham has sole authority on how to handle the situation. You can't say your not guilty because you did it for years. People break laws for years but when caught you are still guilty. This may sound harsh but sometimes the truth isn't what you want here

 

[troy12n]

The tide is turning... some of you are seeing the light, and the rats are scurrying to the shadows

 

[HitchHiker71]

This is where the problem lies, semantics. An owner, regardless of status 'consumes' their points, points they paid for, when they make a reservation. A renter is paying to use the points that an owner consumes.

One of the issues that many owners have a problem with is that a renter is occupying a unit. And, someone is, supposedly, being harmed by that. Then translating that to mean that the owner doing the renting did something 'wrong'. While I see the point, we need to quit vilifying owners who used points as they saw fit. Loophole, or not, Wyndham has allowed renting. The new rules will certainly reel in the financial gain from renting, but, renting will still exist, as long as GC's are allowed. I've not heard much interest in eliminating GC's. Is that the next target?

This is where the problem lies, semantics. An owner, regardless of status 'consumes' their points, points they paid for, when they make a reservation. A renter is paying to use the points that an owner consumes.

One of the issues that many owners have a problem with is that a renter is occupying a unit. And, someone is, supposedly, being harmed by that. Then translating that to mean that the owner doing the renting did something 'wrong'. While I see the point, we need to quit vilifying owners who used points as they saw fit. Loophole, or not, Wyndham has allowed renting. The new rules will certainly reel in the financial gain from renting, but, renting will still exist, as long as GC's are allowed. I've not heard much interest in eliminating GC's. Is that the next target?

I’m sorry, but it is far from mere semantics. Violation of terms of use is not semantics - it is grounds to remove the owner from the entire system - just like what happened to a subset of megarenters in 2016 - and it will happen again in 2020 and 2021 if necessary. There’s a marked difference, and a legal difference, between an owner who uses points within the bounds of the system, and an owner running a commercial business which clearly violates the terms of use - and this is easily proven in a court of law, which is why this lawsuit won’t do much of anything other than paint a target on the plaintiffs back.

And yes, if the current restrictions and corresponding account suspensions do not work - further restrictions will be considered without a doubt, regarding your reference to eliminating GCs for example.


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[dgalati]

[/QUOTE]

@dgalati - Here you go, I had you beat by 4 years on calling for no VIP benefits for resale points.


Braindead
TUG Member
JoinedMay 23, 2016Messages2,490Reaction score1,214Points273

Jan 2, 2017

Wyndham doesn't need to change the rules!!! Just enforce the rules in place! No VIP benefits for resale points. Hardly any owners have 5 million or more developer points to tie up points on multiple prime reservations to end up with 1 reservation. No commercial renting. I'm sure there's an exemption for Extra Holidays already in place if you interpret the wording correctly. Wyndham has the authority to use its discretion.

If your reservation or points are listed or advertised on a website or through a third party that would be considered commercial by almost any court. Loss or profit doesn't matter. Commercial entities lose money everyday. Wyndham has a IT problem to fix. But I also think they are drawing out the audits to see how much business they can pickup at Extra Holidays and get a handle on how much renting was occurring. They were diffidently caught off guard at the amount of commercial renting. Extra Holidays is a great way to get new sales! If you liked your stay here let me show you how you can save money on your vacations.

Just look at TripAdvisor comments sometime. People comment on renting constantly. I looked up Wyndham Waikiki Beach Walk. Mr. Weng told a client he has thousands of rentals. Shelby Resorts mentioned several times. I truely believe all of us would be surprised at the availability of prime reservations if the current rules were enforced. I don't think even some renters here realize the amount of renting currently.

I don't know how AM1 and others believe they can defend their actions in court. When they are in clear violations of the rules. Wyndham has sole authority on how to handle the situation. You can't say your not guilty because you did it for years. People break laws for years but when caught you are still guilty. This may sound harsh but sometimes the truth isn't what you want here

this is from the 2012-13 directory pg 331 This directory is posted in the Tug Wyndham forum stickies (I posted it and its still there
View attachment 37963

It was posted a few times over the years but we can agree the elimination of resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrades will be beneficial to owners looking to book for personal use.

 

[The trumpster]

From what I am reading these “mega renters” have made this their job. This is how they make money just like how everyone else finds a way to make money. So if they work for their money how is it a “free ride”. Everyone has to find a way to make money. I believe many of you are just jellous you have not thought of this way.

 

[paxsarah]

At 13 months out I can't reserve a two or three bedroom unit at Ocean Walk for Bike Week

Out of pure curiosity, do you own select at Ocean Walk, or CWA? My guess would be that it’s easier to book bike week with Ocean Walk deeded than CWA, but I don’t mind being proven wrong. (I assume midnight at 13 months in either case.)

 

[troy12n]

From what I am reading these “mega renters” have made this their job.

Yes, it seems that way...

This is how they make money just like how everyone else finds a way to make money.

Which is explicitly against the rules

So if they work for their money how is it a “free ride”. Everyone has to find a way to make money. I believe many of you are just jellous you have not thought of this way.

LoL... now we have mega renters registering as guests to support their position.

OK, "Trumpster"...