[ Thread is unlocked ] Megarenter Rap Lawsuit

[dgalati]

Yes, what define commercial activity? If I'm given 15 GC and use 16 GC's, am I now a commercial activity. Where will they draw the line?


The change coming this month has real bite as it relates to anyone with resale points. I only have 168K in resale which I'll probably get rid of as I can't see managing, what will seem like, 2 accounts long term. It will just be a hassle.

Wyndham will buy them out and make them go away, OR, bleed them dry with Attorney Fees and MF's.

Without the ability to rent Wyndham will bleed them dry with the $33,500 in maintenance fees monthly.

 

[Cyrus24]

Without the ability to rent Wyndham will bleed them dry with the $33,500 in maintenance fees monthly.

Mostly agree. They can still rent unless Wyndham freezes their account. They may just be renting at a loss.

 

[Braindead]

Ok, so help me out here. This person was sold the points and paid the MF yearly. They were not in arrears. How does Wyndham have to protect other owners from these folk who were ‘profiting at their expense’? And exactly how does someone renting out their legitimately gotten points hurt me, another owner who also has legitimate points. I honestly just do not grasp how someone renting their points harms me. If points are only sold that track to actual availability to rent, then it does not matter whether the owner or a guest uses the reservation, it’s legitimate.
Please do not start a thread attacking me - help me actually understand in factual terms and examples how a renter hurts other owners. (As in, don’t say it is a fact unless you cite the evidence)

I'm pretty much aligned with that line of thinking. There were things that went on in the past (pre-2016) where people got more points to use than they should have like getting the full value of a reservation returned to their accounts when canceling a discounted one; others have posted about somehow getting nearly unlimited points from Wyndham with no good basis by some other means. But if they own the points and the MFs are paid, I don't see the issue in general.

What several fail to realize is when mega renters basically take over a resort ALL availability is gone. A mega renter takes over 90% of the units for a high demand time they control their own upgrades. The mega renter cancels a 4 bedroom they have well over a 90% chance to the auto upgrade or have patterned when the cancelled unit comes back. That’s what most miss on equal chance at reservations. Mega renter cancels 4 bedroom PR unit at 60 days it‘s nearly 100% chance it’ll be their upgrade.

The mega renter has basically tied up the entire resort until inside the 60 day window. The average owner has already given up on that resort so choose a different resort to go to. The mega renter has cancelled & upgraded all the 3&4 bedroom units. So they cancel a non rented studio at 17 days out, what good is that for a family with kids?

Do mega renters basically take over resorts at times? It’s a fact yes they do & it has been reported by some here in this forum. A well known member basically took over a resort for Mardi Gras so if you wanted to stay there you had no other choice than to rent from them. Another member here reported another resort was around 95% renters for Thanksgiving. By controlling the upgrades it creates more points left for them to make more reservations than what their ownership supports.

Do you want 100 happy owners for a weekend or 1 mega renter?

 

[Roger830]

Wyndham’s cancellation policy is quite generous. There is absolutely no reason an owner couldn’t take their best stab at vacation plans at 10 months, and cancel with full points returned anytime in the ensuing 9.5 months. It took me three tries to get my spring break booked for this year. I may have even had to buy a $19 reservation transaction in the process. It was completely worth it.

I'm with you on this with our fall trip (we're on vacation all year).

Booked at 10 months Sedona and Tucson because we had an airline voucher from last year.

Decided in the spring that a direct flight on AA to Dallas would be better with a drive to New Orleans, then San Antonio.

Didn't want to risk covid on the road after NO so canceled and booked two days in Midtown and picked up two days in a resort in New Hampshire the end of September.

 

[Eric B]

What several fail to realize is when mega renters basically take over a resort ALL availability is gone. A mega renter takes over 90% of the units for a high demand time they control their own upgrades. The mega renter cancels a 4 bedroom they have well over a 90% chance to the auto upgrade or have patterned when the cancelled unit comes back. That’s what most miss on equal chance at reservations. Mega renter cancels 4 bedroom PR unit at 60 days it‘s nearly 100% chance it’ll be their upgrade.

The mega renter has basically tied up the entire resort until inside the 60 day window. The average owner has already given up on that resort so choose a different resort to go to. The mega renter has cancelled & upgraded all the 3&4 bedroom units. So they cancel a non rented studio at 17 days out, what good is that for a family with kids?

Do mega renters basically take over resorts at times? It’s a fact yes they do & it has been reported by some here in this forum. A well known member basically took over a resort for Mardi Gras so if you wanted to stay there you had no other choice than to rent from them. Another member here reported another resort was around 95% renters for Thanksgiving. By controlling the upgrades it creates more points left for them to make more reservations than what their ownership supports.

Do you want 100 happy owners for a weekend or 1 mega renter?

Couldn't make a guess as to whether that really happens from one megarenter or many all shooting for the same desirable stays if it happens. I thought the autoupgrade change was supposed to address that possibility. What I really want is a fair playing field for owners to use their ownership however they want to - letting folks rent out stays booked away from where they own seems to me to be part of the problem. That’s fundamentally allowing rental of the exchange system. The problem is that Wyndham set things up that way, and it’s awfully difficult to change that underlying structure, especially when you have trusts in their like CWA that muddy the waters. Maybe the right answer is to allow only rentals of full price stays booked in ARP. I’m not too sure, but it’s pretty apparent that Wyndham didn’t make good planning decisions to support being as large a player as they’ve become. Hopefully they can figure out a way to arrange things that doesn’t hurt all the folks that their sales teams set up doing things some find questionable and annoying the little people that aren’t megarenters but own hybrid accounts. I feel like collateral damage in their war on renting, though I must admit I still don’t think it’s much of a difference for me.

 

[troy12n]

Ok, so help me out here. This person was sold the points and paid the MF yearly.

See, this is where you were wrong. Wyndham didn't sell them the points.

We don't know the details, but i'm going out on a limb and say that, at most, they bought somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 million retail points. At the outside. 1.4 million points. At the most.

Depending on when they bought, they could have gone platinum for as few as ~150k points back when Wyndham allowed unlimited PICS. We don't have access to the discovery documents of their actual ownership, but let's be generous and say they paid for 1 million points, retail. Then they bought something on the order of 80 million more resale points for what, a few thousand dollars? And profited on them.

Yes, they kept up with MF. But don't be intellectually dishonest and say that Wyndham sold them those points... because they didn't.

 

[dgalati]

When wyndham resells the mega renters 700 million points, you will have 2000+ regular owners booking those points so no additional inventory will open up.

I guess you could purchase and pay Mf on those 700 million points and not book anything in order to allow more regular members to use their timeshares.

I think there's a better chance that he becomes a member of TUG first.

 

[Cyrus24]

Do mega renters basically take over resorts at times? It’s a fact yes they do & it has been reported by some here in this forum. A well known member basically took over a resort for Mardi Gras so if you wanted to stay there you had no other choice than to rent from them. Another member here reported another resort was around 95% renters for Thanksgiving. By controlling the upgrades it creates more points left for them to make more reservations than what their ownership supports.

Agree. Wyndham will slow this down by not allowing discounts and by not giving upgrades on resale points. But, what is to prevent a mega-renter from taking all 4br's at a resort with their resale points and then booking a bunch of smaller units using the Developer points so that they can grab upgrades when the 4br's get cancelled? I only see 2 options, blacking out resorts during high demand weeks/weekends, or dramatically scaling back on the number of GC's an owner can use and/or purchase.

These mega renters are savvy, they will find a way to earn an income from their points unless Wyndham clamps down, HARD, on either the actual owner running the commercial business or by making changes that hurt those who like to use GC's for family/friends (not as a business).

 

[troy12n]

Eventually it's going to come down to a hard limit on the number of GC's allowed, period... this will give owners the flexibility to invite guests or do a small number of rentals to cover MF if they want, but kick the mega renter wanna be travel agents to the curb, or the gutter, or wherever they belong

 

[dgalati]

The math isnt difficult,, you you multiplied correctly.
6 X 67,000 does indeed equal 402000 just like 2x2 =4

Why do you think, 3rd grade arithmetic might not be real?

Ron Wyndham sells a lot of points putting a spin on simple math. How many owners would of never bought if they understood 3rd grade math?

 

[Cyrus24]

See, this is where you were wrong. Wyndham didn't sell them the points.

Who Cares? Someone bought the points from Wyndham. And, they are paying MF's. The points are theirs to use as they see fit, within the guidelines of the program and/or within the allowed limits set by Wyndham.

 

[Cyrus24]

but kick the mega renter wanna be travel agents to the curb, or the gutter, or wherever they belong

I'm sorry, mega renters are real people too. They need not be kicked to the 'gutter'. The rules are changing, let up on the hate.

 

[am1]

What several fail to realize is when mega renters basically take over a resort ALL availability is gone. A mega renter takes over 90% of the units for a high demand time they control their own upgrades. The mega renter cancels a 4 bedroom they have well over a 90% chance to the auto upgrade or have patterned when the cancelled unit comes back. That’s what most miss on equal chance at reservations. Mega renter cancels 4 bedroom PR unit at 60 days it‘s nearly 100% chance it’ll be their upgrade.

The mega renter has basically tied up the entire resort until inside the 60 day window. The average owner has already given up on that resort so choose a different resort to go to. The mega renter has cancelled & upgraded all the 3&4 bedroom units. So they cancel a non rented studio at 17 days out, what good is that for a family with kids?

Do mega renters basically take over resorts at times? It’s a fact yes they do & it has been reported by some here in this forum. A well known member basically took over a resort for Mardi Gras so if you wanted to stay there you had no other choice than to rent from them. Another member here reported another resort was around 95% renters for Thanksgiving. By controlling the upgrades it creates more points left for them to make more reservations than what their ownership supports.

Do you want 100 happy owners for a weekend or 1 mega renter?

But everyone had the same opportunity to book. I took over Skyline Towers for New Years before. I think over 100 rooms. I would book the 4 bedroom presidential and I think it was 4 3 bedroom presidentials every weekend when no one used their 13 or 11 month ARP. Even prime weeks I would book 3 nights then when allowed cancel and book just Fri - Sun. I would book a lot of Bonnet Creek all 4 bedroom presidentials I could get a hold of. When PR would release their units to the masses I would scramble to free up points and book everything I could. Thankfully would not have to hold it for 10 months as I would with normal inventory. When Tower 6 was being renovated I recall Wyndham must had decided they would finish early and released the whole Tower starting Thanksgiving week. I remember booking everything I could. Quite possibly my highlight of the business.

But lets remember everyone had an equal chance at it. I do not see any other way to make it equitable. Equal opportunity not equal outcome.

I have suggested before that Wyndham should have an extreme prime week at resorts. New Years, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Bike week, race week, easter, July 4, Mardi Gras. Another option is to go back to more of a fixed week model where one can purchase prime weeks at a premium but at so many months if not reserved it is released to everyone and the owner can use points to book where they want. But Wyndham seems to have gone the other way with CWA. I guess its easier to tell every owner they can book Bike Week instead of only being able to sell it to one person.

 

[55plus]

Ok, so help me out here. This person was sold the points and paid the MF yearly. They were not in arrears. How does Wyndham have to protect other owners from these folk who were ‘profiting at their expense’? And exactly how does someone renting out their legitimately gotten points hurt me, another owner who also has legitimate points. I honestly just do not grasp how someone renting their points harms me. If points are only sold that track to actual availability to rent, then it does not matter whether the owner or a guest uses the reservation, it’s legitimate.
Please do not start a thread attacking me - help me actually understand in factual terms and examples how a renter hurts other owners. (As in, don’t say it is a fact unless you cite the evidence)

Mega renters using hundreds to thousands of guest certificates at high demand resorts during high demand times hurts regular owners. What do you not understand?

 

[troy12n]

Who Cares? Someone bought the points from Wyndham. And, they are paying MF's. The points are theirs to use as they see fit, within the guidelines of the program and/or with the allowed limits set by Wyndham.

It matters because you are insinuating that Wyndham sold them the points, and by doing so, Wyndham must have known that they could not use that number of points for personal reasons and therefore had a duty to not make the sale, to preserve the system for owners, not for them to run a quasi business with the points.

You can't both sides this argument...

Wyndham has no control over the resale market, other than the ROFR, which until recently has apparently never been exercised.

 

[dgalati]

What several fail to realize is when mega renters basically take over a resort ALL availability is gone. A mega renter takes over 90% of the units for a high demand time they control their own upgrades. The mega renter cancels a 4 bedroom they have well over a 90% chance to the auto upgrade or have patterned when the cancelled unit comes back. That’s what most miss on equal chance at reservations. Mega renter cancels 4 bedroom PR unit at 60 days it‘s nearly 100% chance it’ll be their upgrade.

The mega renter has basically tied up the entire resort until inside the 60 day window. The average owner has already given up on that resort so choose a different resort to go to. The mega renter has cancelled & upgraded all the 3&4 bedroom units. So they cancel a non rented studio at 17 days out, what good is that for a family with kids?

Do mega renters basically take over resorts at times? It’s a fact yes they do & it has been reported by some here in this forum. A well known member basically took over a resort for Mardi Gras so if you wanted to stay there you had no other choice than to rent from them. Another member here reported another resort was around 95% renters for Thanksgiving. By controlling the upgrades it creates more points left for them to make more reservations than what their ownership supports.

Do you want 100 happy owners for a weekend or 1 mega renter?

Lets look at it from Wyndham's sales perspective. One happy owner may give them a 5% chance at possibly buying again. Where 100 renters give them at least a 20% chance of a sale. Wyndham has some culpability in the nonsense that was taking place. Especially if they converted 20 of the rentals into new owners. Lets not forget sales sold this strategy as a way to upsell owners the VIP benefits.

 

[Cyrus24]

It matters because you are insinuating that Wyndham sold them the points,

I never said that. Nor did the person that you originally quoted.

 

[troy12n]

But everyone had the same opportunity to book.

But lets remember everyone had an equal chance at it. I do not see any other way to make it equitable. Equal opportunity not equal outcome.

Not everyone has the ability to sit around like a hawk at midnight at the 13 or 10 month mark, watching 24 hours a day.

Some of us have jobs, real jobs, not "fake travel agent" jobs...

We pay taxes on that income too... Think maybe Uncle Sam needs to take a look at some of these businesses. That would get interesting fast.

Wyndham knows all your names... you think maybe a little birdie could slip the IRS a little note? Maybe some of you not poke the bear.

 

[Braindead]

Couldn't make a guess as to whether that really happens from one megarenter or many all shooting for the same desirable stays if it happens. I thought the autoupgrade change was supposed to address that possibility. What I really want is a fair playing field for owners to use their ownership however they want to - letting folks rent out stays booked away from where they own seems to me to be part of the problem. That’s fundamentally allowing rental of the exchange system. The problem is that Wyndham set things up that way, and it’s awfully difficult to change that underlying structure, especially when you have trusts in their like CWA that muddy the waters. Maybe the right answer is to allow only rentals of full price stays booked in ARP. I’m not too sure, but it’s pretty apparent that Wyndham didn’t make good planning decisions to support being as large a player as they’ve become. Hopefully they can figure out a way to arrange things that doesn’t hurt all the folks that their sales teams set up doing things some find questionable and annoying the little people that aren’t megarenters but own hybrid accounts. I feel like collateral damage in their war on renting, though I must admit I still don’t think it’s much of a difference for me.

I’ve heard that Kleppas who filed this lawsuit liked Glacier Canyon for rentals. 60-70 million points go along ways for the Thanksgiving 3 day weekend. I believe it was Wes that reported the 94% rented Thanksgiving weekend at GC. So what if Kleppas didn’t have all 94% but had a friend with the rest. How do you control what GC rents for Thanksgiving? Create your own monopoly & they did. We know from eBay that Kleppas owned GC, CWA & PR contracts so they had ARP for all types of units at GC at more than the 10 month mark. You don’t remember who Mr. Mardi Gras is?

Just to say this won’t change your ownership is pretty short sided in IMHO. Are we all & Wyndham only looking out for ourselves or the bigger picture?

I still ask do you want 100 happy owners for a weekend or 1 mega renter? Of course there will still be several hundred owners saying there’s no availability but the final number is still 100 less than in the past!!

 

[troy12n]

I never said that.

You very much insinuated it. Otherwise the point you were trying to make is irrelevant.

 

[dgalati]

Mega renters using hundreds to thousands of guest certificates at high demand resorts during high demand times hurts regular owners. What do you not understand?

Now compound this when the same is done using resale points with VIP discounts and free upgrades. 50% discounts take out double the number of rooms available.

 

[Cyrus24]

You very much insinuated it. Otherwise the point you were trying to make is irrelevant.

You need to reread the posts you quote and the comments you make. You are blinded by your hate.

 

[troy12n]

I’ve heard that Kleppas who filed this lawsuit liked Glacier Canyon for rentals. 60-70 million points go along ways for the Thanksgiving 3 day weekend. I believe it was Wes that reported the 94% rented Thanksgiving weekend at GC. So what if Kleppas didn’t have all 94% but had a friend with the rest. How do you control what GC rents for Thanksgiving? Create your own monopoly & they did. We know from eBay that Kleppas owned GC, CWA & PR contracts so they had ARP for all types of units at GC at more than the 10 month mark. You don’t remember who Mr. Mardi Gras is?

Just to say this won’t change your ownership is pretty short sided in IMHO. Are we all & Wyndham only looking out for ourselves or the bigger picture?

I still ask do you want 100 happy owners for a weekend or 1 mega renter? Of course there will still be several hundred owners saying there’s no availability but the final number is still 100 less than in the past!!

It's very obvious that yes, the mega renters are a very special snowflake kind of greedy, selfish person who wants everything for themselves. Many of them have even said as such. They are literally bragging about it in this thread and others...

I'm gonna let you guess who is gonna have the last laugh...

 

[VacayKat]

See, this is where you were wrong. Wyndham didn't sell them the points.

Yes, they kept up with MF. But don't be intellectually dishonest and say that Wyndham sold them those points... because they didn't.

This argument is not accurate. EVERY purchase has to be approved by Wyndham. I literally did not say they purchased developer points. I’m not stupid. But if Wyndham approves of the transaction, they condone it, and therefore your point is just about not addressing the question I posed.

 

[troy12n]

You need to reread the posts you quote and the comments you make. You are blinded by your hate.

I'm a guest, I don't have hate...