WorldMark BOD letter about Special Assessment

[bnoble]

I'm not a big fan of contractual limits on increases, unless those limits are tied to some external measure of inflation. It can leave resorts in a bind, with not enough to pay for what it needs--and that's partly what this special assessment is for. At the end of the day, you have to pay for what a resort costs to run, even if that grew more than you'd hoped. Whether it's an MF increase or a special assessment, you still have to pay it.

If the 5% is not enough to keep up, the SA will plug the hole for this year, but expect a higher-than-inflation increase next year to make up for it. And, if 5% is still not enough the next year, expect another SA.

 

[Mongoose]

Can we really compare WM to the likes of Marriott, Vistana or even Hilton? Are the resorts a "full scale" as other timeshare systems? Walked past the WM Victoria the other day and it just looked like a condo complex. Perhaps other WM properties are on the same scale as the premier resorts in other systems?

Kind of like comparing a holiday inn express to a Marriott. You may see some extraordinary Express and some tired Marriotts however overall Marriott is more expensive and more upscale. I like Marriott, Hyatt, HGVC for destination stays. I like WM for 2-3 day weekend adventures.

 

[bizaro86]

Can we really compare WM to the likes of Marriott, Vistana or even Hilton? Are the resorts a "full scale" as other timeshare systems? Walked past the WM Victoria the other day and it just looked like a condo complex. Perhaps other WM properties are on the same scale as the premier resorts in other systems?

There are a few that would certainly compare favorably - EG WM Anaheim would almost certainly be nicer than MVC Pulse properties. And many (eg Indio) are full resorts with amenities.

But really from a % increase that shouldn't make any difference. It's not like MVC added a bunch of expensive-to-maintain amenities this year. Their base levels of fees are higher because they're maintaining more "stuff" per unit (bigger pools, whatever). But I doubt the cost of those amenities is escalating at a higher % of inflation than the cost of things WM buys.

Especially since basic things like insurance will be a higher percentage of WM budget and those are going up fast. Labor is probably about the same as a percentage and is presumably equal. Where MVC would be higher would be things like maintenance spending (eg tighter refurb schedule)

 

[dioxide45]

Kind of like comparing a holiday inn express to a Marriott. You may see some extraordinary Express and some tired Marriotts however overall Marriott is more expensive and more upscale. I like Marriott, Hyatt, HGVC for destination stays. I like WM for 2-3 day weekend adventures.

I have never stayed at a WM, but for some reason I get the impression they are more like a condo complex than other timeshare resorts we have stayed at. The staffing levels are not nearly the same as what we would see at a Marriott, Hyatt, Westin or HGVC?

 

[dioxide45]

There are a few that would certainly compare favorably - EG WM Anaheim would almost certainly be nicer than MVC Pulse properties. And many (eg Indio) are full resorts with amenities.

But really from a % increase that shouldn't make any difference. It's not like MVC added a bunch of expensive-to-maintain amenities this year. Their base levels of fees are higher because they're maintaining more "stuff" per unit (bigger pools, whatever). But I doubt the cost of those amenities is escalating at a higher % of inflation than the cost of things WM buys.

Especially since basic things like insurance will be a higher percentage of WM budget and those are going up fast. Labor is probably about the same as a percentage and is presumably equal. Where MVC would be higher would be things like maintenance spending (eg tighter refurb schedule)

On average, would a WM property have the same level of staff to guest as the average Marriott resort? Every Marriott resort we go to is crawling with staff zipping around on golf carts. When we walked past the WM in Victoria the other day, at most they probably had a couple people working the front desk. Though there would certainly be maintenance and housekeeping staff.

 

[bizaro86]

On average, would a WM property have the same level of staff to guest as the average Marriott resort? Every Marriott resort we go to is crawling with staff zipping around on golf carts. When we walked past the WM in Victoria the other day, at most they probably had a couple people working the front desk. Though there would certainly be maintenance and housekeeping staff.

I bet they have a similar percentage of their budget allocated to staff. They would have less staff total, but current MF per unit are also way lower.

Eg a WM unit probably has fees in the $1000/year range

MVC fees vary but $2000/year seems in the ballpark, especially for points.

MVC could have twice as many staff at the same pay rates and the % of their budget going to staff would be the same.

So if staff costs cause MVC budget to go up 5% from 2000 to 2100 then they should also cause WM budget to go up 5% from 1000 to 1050.

But MVC costs have been going up much faster as a percentage than WM for years, even including this special assessment.

 

[dioxide45]

I bet they have a similar percentage of their budget allocated to staff. They would have less staff total, but current MF per unit are also way lower.

Eg a WM unit probably has fees in the $1000/year range

MVC fees vary but $2000/year seems in the ballpark, especially for points.

MVC could have twice as many staff at the same pay rates and the % of their budget going to staff would be the same.

So if staff costs cause MVC budget to go up 5% from 2000 to 2100 then they should also cause WM budget to go up 5% from 1000 to 1050.

But MVC costs have been going up much faster as a percentage than WM for years, even including this special assessment.

While the individual line items may go up with similar percentages, on a per week basis, they may be a bigger piece of the pie. If resort A has 10 staff per villa and villa resort B has 5 staff per villa. When the increases go in, labor will be a bigger piece of the overall resort budget for resort A. Overall the budget of resort A will go up faster than resort B.

 

[Mongoose]

I have never stayed at a WM, but for some reason I get the impression they are more like a condo complex than other timeshare resorts we have stayed at. The staffing levels are not nearly the same as what we would see at a Marriott, Hyatt, Westin or HGVC?

There are some WM resorts with lazy rivers, multiple pools, game rooms, etc. but o average they are not what you think of as a resort. Only a couple have F&B.

 

[bizaro86]

While the individual line items may go up with similar percentages, on a per week basis, they may be a bigger piece of the pie. If resort A has 10 staff per villa and villa resort B has 5 staff per villa. When the increases go in, labor will be a bigger piece of the overall resort budget for resort A. Overall the budget of resort A will go up faster than resort B.

Maybe. Or maybe they're the same percentage of a much larger pie.

If MVC has 10 staff per villa and WM has 5 staff per villa, I'd agree that MVC staff expenses per villa would be twice as large. But MVC MF are already twice as large, so as a percentage of the budget it would be about the same.

Again, that makes the increases larger in terms of absolute dollars, not as a percentage. There doesn't seem to be an obvious reason to me why the MVC increases should be so much larger as a % of their already higher MFs.

If MVC has twice as many staff, and twice as much utilities (more pools, etc), twice as much property taxes/insurance (higher value), twice as much refurb expenses (more often/higher end materials) then obviously their fees will be twice as much. And they'll go up twice as fast in absolute dollars (ie if inflation was 10% and everything went up 10% WM would go from $1000-->$1100 while MVC would go from $2000--->$2200). Makes sense, since they're buying twice as much of everything. But in that case the percentage increases would be the same, not much higher as has been the case for some time.

 

[schreff]

We own a small amount of Worldmark and have received nothing concerning this. Love Worldmark and have had no problems with them over the years. We're Wyndham Platinum; previously, Founders but got twisted out of that when our Fairfield legacy conversion was kicked out by Wyndham. Beware of the games Wyndham plays and can only hope they don't do the same with their Worldmark in the future.

 

[WyndhamBarter]

We own a small amount of Worldmark

Us too. And our Email letter didn't arrive until today.

Perhaps they are dribbling them out, anticipating increased call center volume?
If so, good for them!!

 

[Salmon2day]

The reason we bought in to this place is because of the maintenance fee cap on increase. We were told that would be the only increases we would see. They sold the program as locking in the prices from that time frame and avoiding inflation costs of hotels etc. They totally misled how they sold these. I am not new to WorldMark been a member since 1997. I can’t even break even renting out points I can’t use because of maintenance increases alone. (Which I expected and agreed to). I know it’s only $145 in my case but still the program was misrepresented and will eventually tax me out. I pay $2200 a year for 22000 points. I’d say I pay enough or equivalent to an air bnb or hotel that allows pets and actually has availability. Now I’m retired and can’t afford what I thought was protected from inflation by the cap on increase. I call BS on the need of this fee and if they get away easily with this they will keep going for more. It must be grossly mismanaged and it’s evident by the terrible new website and its terrible navigation. Bring the old site back. The new site they have made difficult to rent to other owners so they can rent their points.

 

[dioxide45]

The reason we bought in to this place is because of the maintenance fee cap on increase. We were told that would be the only increases we would see. They sold the program as locking in the prices from that time frame and avoiding inflation costs of hotels etc. They totally misled how they sold these. I am not new to WorldMark been a member since 1997. I can’t even break even renting out points I can’t use because of maintenance increases alone. (Which I expected and agreed to). I know it’s only $145 in my case but still the program was misrepresented and will eventually tax me out. I pay $2200 a year for 22000 points. I’d say I pay enough or equivalent to an air bnb or hotel that allows pets and actually has availability. Now I’m retired and can’t afford what I thought was protected from inflation by the cap on increase. I call BS on the need of this fee and if they get away easily with this they will keep going for more. It must be grossly mismanaged and it’s evident by the terrible new website and its terrible navigation. Bring the old site back. The new site they have made difficult to rent to other owners so they can rent their points.

Just imagine if you didn't own Worldmark and owned something else....

The problem with the cap is that it leads to issues like this where they cap it out every year and you might expect it hitting the cap every year for the foreseeable future. If inflation trends higher than the cap, something with the resort experience has to be cut.

As for issues with renting, this is the Wyndham way. They don't like people renting, they don't like the competition.

 

[VacationForever]

Just imagine if you didn't own Worldmark and owned something else....

The problem with the cap is that it leads to issues like this where they cap it out every year and you might expect it hitting the cap every year for the foreseeable future. If inflation trends higher than the cap, something with the resort experience has to be cut.

As for issues with renting, this is the Wyndham way. They don't like people renting, they don't like the competition.

The verbiage is cap of 5% or inflation, whichever is higher. We can accept inflation but this special assessment is separate, which had never been imposed before.

 

[Mongoose]

Just imagine if you didn't own Worldmark and owned something else....

The problem with the cap is that it leads to issues like this where they cap it out every year and you might expect it hitting the cap every year for the foreseeable future. If inflation trends higher than the cap, something with the resort experience has to be cut.

As for issues with renting, this is the Wyndham way. They don't like people renting, they don't like the competition.

Not quite accurate it’s capped at 5% but can go above if the CPI rate goes above. It’s probably the best system out there to control costs. The SA is very small and is for things like $2.4, in increased property taxes and $1.7m in insurance increase that are unpredictable. I would rather have a onetime SA than a higher permanent increase in MF. I believe this is the first time in 30+ years. You can rent all you want with WM.

 

[sparty]

I have never stayed at a WM, but for some reason I get the impression they are more like a condo complex than other timeshare resorts we have stayed at. The staffing levels are not nearly the same as what we would see at a Marriott, Hyatt, Westin or HGVC?

Who are you and what have you done with Jeremy?? Please give him back!!

 

[dioxide45]

Who are you and what have you done with Jeremy?? Please give him back!!

You caught me Technically, the two times we stayed there it was on Club Wyndham stays (owner rental) and on an RCI booking. Both were in what were the two Club Wyndham buildings at the time. So I guess while I could say we stayed in a Worldmark, I never really considered them Worldmark stays. Though I did update that video thumbnail because those two buildings were switched over to Worldmark. Though I understand they may have some Wyndham Presidential Reserve units there now.

 

[Icc5]

Like everyone I don't like any extra assessment but it could be so much worse. We own a few other timeshares in different systems and we're hit by assessments in one of them in San Francisco twice before to the tune of a few thousand dollars on the studio. I understand the company being overwhelmed by how fast and how much costs for everything has risen. We can only hope the economy settles down so we can see a more reasonable rate of inflation.
Bart

 

[Mongoose]

You caught me Technically, the two times we stayed there it was on Club Wyndham stays (owner rental) and on an RCI booking. Both were in what were the two Club Wyndham buildings at the time. So I guess while I could say we stayed in a Worldmark, I never really considered them Worldmark stays. Though I did update that video thumbnail because those two buildings were switched over to Worldmark. Though I understand they may have some Wyndham Presidential Reserve units there now.

Nice review. I’m not a fan of murphy beds, but in a studio it can make sense.

 

[Huskerpaul]

You caught me Technically, the two times we stayed there it was on Club Wyndham stays (owner rental) and on an RCI booking. Both were in what were the two Club Wyndham buildings at the time. So I guess while I could say we stayed in a Worldmark, I never really considered them Worldmark stays. Though I did update that video thumbnail because those two buildings were switched over to Worldmark. Though I understand they may have some Wyndham Presidential Reserve units there now.

I saw your original post where you were talking about WM Victoria. We stayed there the first week of September and loved the place. All two bedrooms. Ours was 10,000 credits (penthouse rooms cost more) that I rented credits to book for $800 (8 cents a credit seems to be going rate) because the account I bought last year was stripped. And you are correct that the Victoria WM is more like condos and don't have all the amenities other WM properties do like ball courts, game room, etc. But you also saw how convenient it is to downtown Victoria. You saw it because it is right on the walking path around the harbor that I'm guessing you were using. We were very pleased with the place and no way you can get that location with two bedrooms for that price on Airbnb during the wooden boat festival.

PS - most WM properties have BBQ on the balconies - including Victoria. Cooking steaks while watching all the harbor action was fantastic.

 

[dioxide45]

I saw your original post where you were talking about WM Victoria. We stayed there the first week of September and loved the place. All two bedrooms. Ours was 10,000 credits (penthouse rooms cost more) that I rented credits to book for $800 (8 cents a credit seems to be going rate) because the account I bought last year was stripped. And you are correct that the Victoria WM is more like condos and don't have all the amenities other WM properties do like ball courts, game room, etc. But you also saw how convenient it is to downtown Victoria. You saw it because it is right on the walking path around the harbor that I'm guessing you were using. We were very pleased with the place and no way you can get that location with two bedrooms for that price on Airbnb during the wooden boat festival.

PS - most WM properties have BBQ on the balconies - including Victoria. Cooking steaks while watching all the harbor action was fantastic.

Yes, we walked past the WM Victoria as we walked from the cruise port to downtown. That was a very long walk. I had to take a picture of the sign. I will add, their signs are so boring and uninspiring. I guess that might be a money saver too.

 

[Huskerpaul]

That is a long walk from where the cruise ships dock. Takes about 10 minutes to walk to the Fairmont Empress hotel from the WM. Now that is a hotel! We stayed there 8 years ago in the club level and it was the best hotel experience we have ever had. Had high tea there this trip, and while nice, it was not as good as our last trip.

 

[CO skier]

I will add, their signs are so boring and uninspiring. I guess that might be a money saver too.

It depends on the resort. I hope none of the special assessment is wasted on upgrading signs.

 

[Mongoose]

What will be interesting is that because of club rules they can only raise MFs a maximum of 5% or inflation. So what happened this year was inflation was less than 5% but expenses were more than 5%. They had to conduct the SA to cover expenses above the 5%. This means next year, if expenses are once again above 5% growth (which seems likely), we are certain to get another SA. This could snowball if taxes and insurance continue to skyrocket. While that does certainly suckith, it is at least not driving up the permanent MFs. So if/when things stabilize our MFs will be a better value than other brands.

 

[Mongoose]

It depends on the resort. I hope none of the special assessment is wasted on upgrading signs.

View attachment 82388View attachment 82389

The last two places I visited had very poorly maintained parking lots. If they defer that maintenance to long it will get real expensive fast.