• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Open Season Rates no longer a good deal!!

USDave

newbie
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
76
Reaction score
0
Points
66
Tamaradarann

You have been doing a great job with this thread. I only started another to add to the momentum. I know some choose to compare the merits of other timeshares but I bought HGVC for the benefits it had, not to be changed.

So folks whether it is this thread or mine it is the same goal to get HGVC to rethink.

I would urge you all to let us know when you have sent your comments to HGVC to keep the momentum after all the silent majority don't often get companies to reconsider.
 

Tamaradarann

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
3,390
Reaction score
1,305
Points
548
Location
Honolulu, HI
Resorts Owned
HGVC South Beach, HGVC Las Vegas, HGVC Las Vegas on the Strip, HGVC Sea World, Misner Place
I Welcome as much involvement as Possible

Tamaradarann

You have been doing a great job with this thread. I only started another to add to the momentum. I know some choose to compare the merits of other timeshares but I bought HGVC for the benefits it had, not to be changed.

So folks whether it is this thread or mine it is the same goal to get HGVC to rethink.

I would urge you all to let us know when you have sent your comments to HGVC to keep the momentum after all the silent majority don't often get companies to reconsider.

Thank you Dave for your kind thoughts. I have no problem with another thread or other thoughts that express negativity on the great rise in the Open Season Rates.

One reason that I brought up the issue of the derivation of the Open Season availability is that I believe that HGVC is being ingenuous in its explanation of the reasons for raising Open Season rates when it says that the Open Season Availability is manly from deposits that members made to get Partner Perks. I have challenged HGVC about this issue and am waiting for a reply.
 

GeorgeJ.

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
406
Reaction score
23
Points
378
I think this is the primary disconnect you and I are having.

my understanding of HGVC is that there is no "owner/member" reserved inventory. It is an exchange system with a giant pile of points. As soon as you enroll and want to use anything other than your deeded week, you are using an exchange with multiple parties owning points (HGVC being the developer of thousands of time intervals, the owner of the exchange, and the one who purchases points from people to provide club perks is the largest individual point owner).

I guess the question that we need to clarify, is do you view HGVC as an owner and participant on the exchange or simply the entity that facilitates exchanges?



If you view them as only a facilitator, then I fully understand your frustration.

The reality is very different, HGVC is not a facilitator, they are a participant, but a participant who ties their own hands by not reserving "hot weeks" and always willing to give up one of their own reservations for a points reservation by another member. By that same token, they attempt to monetize whatever they have left over as best they can by renting rooms out to other members or renting them out to third parties.

Now put yourself in HGVC shoes
If you pay MF of $1,000/year on your week, would you be willing to rent it to a friend for $700?

Should Hilton rent out these room to members at a loss? Breakeven? or a small profit?

HGVC is currently renting out the rooms to members at a loss, and you are frustrated that they are not willing to continue to absorb those loses.

If HGVC raised prices by $1, you would be mad.
If HGVC raised prices to break even, you would be mad.
If HGVC raised price to break even + a small profit, you would be mad.

You are rightfully mad that HGVC is making sound business decisions that determent you to the benefit of the owners of Hilton (who will now lose less money on the open season).

I have a whole list of price items that make me mad. Airlines no longer give food, almost all of them charge to check bags, pretty soon I will have to pump quarters into the john door to take a leak in privacy onboard, and for some reason the guy sitting next to me paid 10-20% less.

My cell phone company now wants me to "finance" a new cell phone instead of giving me a 2 year contract and a discounted phone price.

I used to get more juice in my carton, more cereal in my box, more ice cream in my container, and more toilet paper in a packet, and they kept the prices the same. When they made those decisions, companies used the excuse that expenses had gone up because of gas prices, but now that prices have dropped, I don't see the size of my packages increasing to old levels or the prices of my groceries going down.

There is a reprieve for 3 months in which HGVC will more publically start discussing the changes to the open season program rather than sneaking it in like the less juice in the carton, but in the scheme of things, that is meaningless. I would be much happier if HGVC came up with a transparent way that open season was calculated and instead of annually changing the rates or coming up with confusing ranges, have a solid meathodology that we can all understand and that stays consistent over time (E.G., it rises with CPI, or is the publically available rental rate - X percent)

Jason, why is it that you think that HGVC is renting out units in Open Season to members at a loss? And keep in mind that part of that inventory they're using is member inventory that is not reserved and their cost for that is zero.

I was going to use Open Season a year ago for a 1-bedroom in Las Vegas during midweek where I believe the Open Season rate would have been $100 per night. I happened to check hilton.com and found that the general public could book a $79 rate. In that particular case, the regular rate was under the member Open Season rate. I don't believe they were losing money on either of them.

I regularly am finding rates on Hilton.com that beat even the Open Season rates. When the new ones go into effect (unless they make changes to what what originally proposed), my feeling is that Hilcon.com will consistently beat Open Season rates..
 

piyooshj

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
278
Reaction score
2
Points
228
Location
Fremont, CA
I regularly am finding rates on Hilton.com that beat even the Open Season rates. When the new ones go into effect (unless they make changes to what what originally proposed), my feeling is that Hilcon.com will consistently beat Open Season rates..

Wow, next time I book OS will check Hilton.com. While this is good insight, Vegas is an aberration, since given the competition there accommodation is really cheap hence Hilton.com is competitive if they want any business at all. OS for vegas with the new pricing should be made 50% to provide a value.

In general moral of the story here is all of us are already sucked into the system so keep squeezing the last drop out of the lemon.
 

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
Jason, why is it that you think that HGVC is renting out units in Open Season to members at a loss? And keep in mind that part of that inventory they're using is member inventory that is not reserved and their cost for that is zero.

I was going to use Open Season a year ago for a 1-bedroom in Las Vegas during midweek where I believe the Open Season rate would have been $100 per night. I happened to check hilton.com and found that the general public could book a $79 rate. In that particular case, the regular rate was under the member Open Season rate. I don't believe they were losing money on either of them.

I regularly am finding rates on Hilton.com that beat even the Open Season rates. When the new ones go into effect (unless they make changes to what what originally proposed), my feeling is that Hilcon.com will consistently beat Open Season rates..


Hotels regularly book rooms to customers at a loss in order to mitigate costs of low occupancy.

As for "why do i think they are renting them at a loss".

They are paying MF on inventory they own (which is that "slack" in the system that allows them to issue 20k bonus points to new buyers). Whenever you allow your week to go unused, it is member inventory that they are technically profiting on (zero cost). If you should instead borrow points or push points from a future you, you are using their inventory (since it is a week that they didn't have allocated to you) and costing them the ability to rent/sell those points during the year you use it. .

To take this a step further, If they pay $1000 in MF for a week with 7000 points, and they have 50-70% occupancy on that week (don't forget that open season is usually most prevelant during "off season"), then they need to rent that room out for a minimum of $200-$300 a night in order to break even. (generate $1k).

If they rent points from owners (club perks) then they are getting the same points for $700. If they get more points costing them $700 instead of costing them $1k, they can rent out the rooms for less and still break even ($140-$240 ish room rate based on the same 50-70% occupancy)

Generally owners don't let the vast majority their points just expire (pay a MF and don't use the unit or pay to rescue the points) so I am a little confused as to where you are comming from.

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
 

piyooshj

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
278
Reaction score
2
Points
228
Location
Fremont, CA
I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.

I think the above would only be equivalent to owners paying MF but letting their points expire unused. Not sure how Hilton optimizes on this.
 

Talent312

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
17,532
Reaction score
7,349
Points
948
Resorts Owned
HGVC & GTS
Wow, next time I book OS will check Hilton.com.

A HGV- CSR actually suggested this to a member, particularly for reservations in advance of the 30-day OS window. The "hotel" reservation can be cancelled later, if OS happens to provide a better deal. -- From a thread long-ago.
 

GeorgeJ.

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
406
Reaction score
23
Points
378
I think the above would only be equivalent to owners paying MF but letting their points expire unused. Not sure how Hilton optimizes on this.

If HGVC is renting a unit during Open Season that came from owner inventory (time not used by owners but points just forfeited) and keeping the income and turning none over to the HOA for that property, then their cost for the unit is zero. (I'm actually answering Jason's question, but the quote from him above didn't print)

My feeling also is that any profit from the on-site stores should be shared with the HOA for each location. If HGVC were not managing the property, chances are real good that the profits would not go to the management company; as far as I can tell from the budget at Flamingo, HGVC keeps the profits from store, pool bar, etc. Does that keep management fees lower? I doubt it.
 

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
If HGVC is renting a unit during Open Season that came from owner inventory (time not used by owners but points just forfeited) and keeping the income and turning none over to the HOA for that property, then their cost for the unit is zero. (I'm actually answering Jason's question, but the quote from him above didn't print)

My feeling also is that any profit from the on-site stores should be shared with the HOA for each location. If HGVC were not managing the property, chances are real good that the profits would not go to the management company; as far as I can tell from the budget at Flamingo, HGVC keeps the profits from store, pool bar, etc. Does that keep management fees lower? I doubt it.

Generally, on site ammeneties (restaurants etc) are leased to others to manage them. If they are generating profits and no revenue related to them is being received by the HOA even though the services are being provided on common area, then that is something that should be brought up to the HOA.

It is possible that it is being received by the HOA and being included in a line called "other revenue".
 

Tamaradarann

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
3,390
Reaction score
1,305
Points
548
Location
Honolulu, HI
Resorts Owned
HGVC South Beach, HGVC Las Vegas, HGVC Las Vegas on the Strip, HGVC Sea World, Misner Place
Open Season Availability not Reserved During Club Season

Jason, this is a response to this part of your last post:

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
Jason245 is offline Report Post

Jason and some others seem not to recognize, and emphasize in their comments if they do recognize, that HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period. Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period. There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory. I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period. Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates. That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates. It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.
 

GeorgeJ.

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
406
Reaction score
23
Points
378
Jason, this is a response to this part of your last post:

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
Jason245 is offline Report Post

Jason and some others seem not to recognize, and emphasize in their comments if they do recognize, that HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period. Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period. There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory. I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period. Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates. That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates. It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.

Tamaradarann, I believe the same as you as to where most or all of the Open Season inventory is coming from...it's unused member inventory that was not earlier reserved. Inventory that HGVC members paid the maint fees on -- not HGVC owned weeks.

Personally, my feeling is that the inventory that HGVC takes out when a member trades in points for "perks" goes directly onto hilton.com. Until they prove otherwise to owners, I'm going to continue to believe that this is how the system works. I also believe that inventory from HGVC owned weeks goes onto hilton.com or is used to house potential buyers, and does NOT go into Open Season inventory (unless they have a huge excess and they're concerned about it going unused and want the $$ from Open Season use on it)

The original Open Season system worked fine for almost 20 years; why do they need to jack up the rates even higher now than they have over the past few years? My feeling is greed. They did not lose any money on the $60-80-100 rates since they paid nothing for that inventory. Raising the rates even further now says greed to me. If not, open up the books and give us an explanation.
 
Last edited:

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
Jason, this is a response to this part of your last post:

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.
Jason245 is offline Report Post

Jason and some others seem not to recognize, and emphasize in their comments if they do recognize, that HGVC is renting out inventory during Open Season that was not reserved during the Club Reservation period. Property Owners paid the maintenance on that inventory that is why it was available to all HGVC owner/members during the Club Reservation Period. There is no cost to HGVC for that inventory. I just did a study on the inventory at the Honolulu and South Beach Resorts last night and the only inventory that HGVC is making available during Open Season at this time is the same inventory that is available during the Club Reservation Period. Therefore, that inventory is our owner/members inventory that was just not reserved by owner/members using their points during the club reservation period, not inventory that was made available from points that owner/members deposited for Perks which was HGVC first excuse for raising Open Season Rates. That inventory should be available to owner/club members at the old/current lower open season rates. It is quite interesting that Honolulu was the main area that the opens season rates were going to be raised January 1, 2015 and that inventory is all unreserved Club Reservation Period inventory, but HGVC was trying to say it was primarily from owner/members depositing their points for Perks.

So, Which weeks are the ones that HGVC is paying the MF for?

Their answer (the one you keep trying to hang your hat on) about it comming from owner/members depositing points in club perks is BS. If it wasn't BS, and hilton was acting like a rental business and actually reserving weeks themselves for rentals, we the "human" owners would not be able to reserve peek weeks (unless they were deeded to us), as HGVC would reserve them with their points and start renting them out for significant profit (eg. New years eve in NY, The best months in Hawaii, XMAS in Florida, ETC...).
 
Last edited:

GeorgeJ.

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
406
Reaction score
23
Points
378
Hotels regularly book rooms to customers at a loss in order to mitigate costs of low occupancy.

As for "why do i think they are renting them at a loss".

They are paying MF on inventory they own (which is that "slack" in the system that allows them to issue 20k bonus points to new buyers). Whenever you allow your week to go unused, it is member inventory that they are technically profiting on (zero cost). If you should instead borrow points or push points from a future you, you are using their inventory (since it is a week that they didn't have allocated to you) and costing them the ability to rent/sell those points during the year you use it. .

To take this a step further, If they pay $1000 in MF for a week with 7000 points, and they have 50-70% occupancy on that week (don't forget that open season is usually most prevelant during "off season"), then they need to rent that room out for a minimum of $200-$300 a night in order to break even. (generate $1k).

If they rent points from owners (club perks) then they are getting the same points for $700. If they get more points costing them $700 instead of costing them $1k, they can rent out the rooms for less and still break even ($140-$240 ish room rate based on the same 50-70% occupancy)

Generally owners don't let the vast majority their points just expire (pay a MF and don't use the unit or pay to rescue the points) so I am a little confused as to where you are comming from.

I wrote a long post on the way that points and money movement works (from everything I have been able to read) and am a little confused as to where this "owners pay the MF and HGVC is paying nothing to use weeks that they are renting" logic comes from.

I think if we saw the real numbers of owners who paid maintenance fees and didn't use any of their points (and didn't rescue them into the following year) or had points left over and just let them go, we'd be surprised. My feeling is that at least 20% of a year's points just go to waste. If that is true, would your thinking be different?

We see posts on TUG where owners have paid maintenance fees for years and never used their timeshare at all and want to dump them -- this INCLUDES HGVC owners. So why is it so hard to believe that points go to waste each year? THAT was the explanation of how Open Season works when we questioned why there would be left-over time that could be rented cheap each year way back in 1996 when we purchased our HGVC week. The explanation WAS NOT that there would be HGVC-owned weeks deposited into Open Season. It was that the expectation would that a certain % of weeks would not be used each year.
 

GeorgeJ.

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
406
Reaction score
23
Points
378
So, Which weeks are the ones that HGVC is paying the MF for?

Their answer (the one you keep trying to hang your hat on) about it comming from owner/members depositing points in club perks is BS. If it wasn't BS, and hilton was acting like a rental business and actually reserving weeks themselves for rentals, we the "human" owners would not be able to reserve peek weeks (unless they were deeded to us), as HGVC would reserve them with their points and start renting them out for significant profit (eg. New years eve in NY, The best months in Hawaii, XMAS in Florida, ETC...).

HGVC is paying the maintenance fees on unsold weeks that they still hold. You really think they reserve crappy weeks with those? Do you really think that they don't reserve any peak weeks and that everyone who wants one can easily reserve it?

Back in 1996, the very peak weeks were New Years, Xmas and Comdex week. NY and Xmas were deeded weeks but Comdex week was up for grabs. I can tell you that on the morning when Comdex week was available to be booked under Home Season, all 200 reservations were gone within the first hour or two. If you didn't hit the phone first thing in the morning you were shut out. Since this was a "Home Week" reservation, only Silver weeks owners could reserve it. Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.
 
Last edited:

piyooshj

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
278
Reaction score
2
Points
228
Location
Fremont, CA
Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.

I see this must be the reason I am in home week and own flamingo. I see lot of availability for Studio, 1b, and 2b from Jan until Oct. But for Nov and Dec ZERO availability for S/1B/2B. Looks like they have all be snatched to be resold at Hilton.com
 

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
HGVC is paying the maintenance fees on unsold weeks that they still hold. You really think they reserve crappy weeks with those? Do you really think that they don't reserve any peak weeks and that everyone who wants one can easily reserve it?

Back in 1996, the very peak weeks were New Years, Xmas and Comdex week. NY and Xmas were deeded weeks but Comdex week was up for grabs. I can tell you that on the morning when Comdex week was available to be booked under Home Season, all 200 reservations were gone within the first hour or two. If you didn't hit the phone first thing in the morning you were shut out. Since this was a "Home Week" reservation, only Silver weeks owners could reserve it. Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.

So then why is it that I can not reserve (through hilton.com) a room at seaworld in April right now (don't tell me that the resort is full to the brim)?

Didn't RCI get sued for holding back weeks (or the perception there of).

I am sorry, but unless you can show me some evidence that HGVC is doing that (try to book at a HGVC for 3-4 months from now on hilton.com), I am going to call BS.
 

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
I see this must be the reason I am in home week and own flamingo. I see lot of availability for Studio, 1b, and 2b from Jan until Oct. But for Nov and Dec ZERO availability for S/1B/2B. Looks like they have all be snatched to be resold at Hilton.com

Are you being sarcastic or serious?

Go look on Hilton.com. I don't see any for rent there for XMAS week (and I can't imagine people that book on hilton.com would book 1 year in advance).

the more likely answer is that either 1. There is a problem with the reservation system (call hilton and find out).
2. A number of actual owners (just like you) are using the timeshare for homeweek in excess of capacity for this short interval of time.
 
Last edited:

Tamaradarann

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
3,390
Reaction score
1,305
Points
548
Location
Honolulu, HI
Resorts Owned
HGVC South Beach, HGVC Las Vegas, HGVC Las Vegas on the Strip, HGVC Sea World, Misner Place
Weeks that are HGVC is paying MF for

So, Which weeks are the ones that HGVC is paying the MF for?

Their answer (the one you keep trying to hang your hat on) about it comming from owner/members depositing points in club perks is BS. If it wasn't BS, and hilton was acting like a rental business and actually reserving weeks themselves for rentals, we the "human" owners would not be able to reserve peek weeks (unless they were deeded to us), as HGVC would reserve them with their points and start renting them out for significant profit (eg. New years eve in NY, The best months in Hawaii, XMAS in Florida, ETC...).

Jason, first of all, I didn't say that HGVC was just paying for the weeks that owner/member deposited their points to get club perks. HGVC said that that was the primary derivation of Open Seaon Availability. What I did say was the HGVC should be able to put on Hilton.com and charge whatever they want for points/nights that owner/members deposit for Hilton Honors Conversions, and club perks as well as any unsold inventory.

However, you do bring up a good point that I don't want to bring into this thread about Open Season Rates since it is off topic. Please open a new thread if you want to persue it any further. How does HGVC decide what weeks to reserve with the points that they own versus what they make available for Club Reservation Inventory?
 

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
HGVC said that that was the primary derivation of Open Seaon Availability.

The above statement is false. HGVC may have said it, and trained their sales people and Customer service agents to speak using those words, but mathmatically, the amount of open season availability does not compute or the amount of people taking club perks is astronomical.

Just look at the open season availability in Orlando.... I call BS on HGVC for that statement.
 

GeorgeJ.

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
406
Reaction score
23
Points
378
So then why is it that I can not reserve (through hilton.com) a room at seaworld in April right now (don't tell me that the resort is full to the brim)?

Didn't RCI get sued for holding back weeks (or the perception there of).

I am sorry, but unless you can show me some evidence that HGVC is doing that (try to book at a HGVC for 3-4 months from now on hilton.com), I am going to call BS.

I'm not having any problem finding units at Seaworld HGVC through Hilton.com in April. First random dates I put in (April 14-17) shows studios available for $109, 1-br for $139, 2-br $239, and 3-br $339.

Seaworld is long since sold-out so there shouldn't be any developer owned units there unless they hold a few by ROFR.

So maybe I should call BS on this one. What dates were you trying for? You said "April" and I found dates in April (first ones that I tried). Would this not imply that HGVC is reserving good weeks for themselves and not leaving them all for members? Just because RCI was sued but HGVC hasn't had a class action suit yet doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. I'd like for them to open up the books and the system to owners and let us see exactly what is going on. If someone turns in their Silver week in Orlando for HH points, does HGVC book a silver week in Orlando to rent out? Or do they book a few nights in Honolulu with those points? We don't know, because even as owners, we're in the dark. Just like we were with RCI. HGVC has a much tighter relationship with HGVC owners since they manage our resorts. If there are shenanigans going on with Open Season (and/or bookings by HGVC in other seasons) and Hilton.com, that's a real problem for HGVC.
 

solonas

TUG Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Points
3
Location
Fort Lauderdale
I can tell you that on the morning when Comdex week was available to be booked under Home Season, all 200 reservations were gone within the first hour or two. If you didn't hit the phone first thing in the morning you were shut out. Since this was a "Home Week" reservation, only Silver weeks owners could reserve it. Originally, Flamingo had Platinum-Gold-Silver & Bronze weeks. Platinum was only the fixed Xmas and NY weeks. You would see studio units at Flamingo on Hilton.com for something like $600-900 per night for Comdex week. So, does HGVC reserve peak weeks to rent on Hilton.com? You're damn straight they do.

This assumes that all of the units for that week were member owned, and therefore available for "Home Week" reservation. If HGVC owned any of those units, they were not required to make them available for a "Home Week" reservation. Unless you tried to buy a unit during week and were told they were all sold, how do you know for sure they are sold? And do you know for certain that Hilton doesn't actually have a holding company that owns weeks just for the purpose of renting them? It is probably a good business to not sell some of the prime weeks to individuals and rent them if you are certain you can increase profit. The only way to know this would be to dig through all of the property records and and look at all of the listings for the resort, but remember that there is always a filing delay so even then you wouldn't know with certainty.

I'm not saying that it is fair to us but we are all working on a lot of assumptions here, not hard facts. We can assume the information we were told by reps and the information we gather from the web is the truth, but in reality it is just a glimpse of how the system works. I don't image there are many people in the organization that know the full inner workings, and they almost certainly aren't customer facing or under any requirement to divulge the mechanics to those that are. Unless you have direct access to their actual inventory in real-time, it is all just a guess.

Having said that, you should definitely complain, not just directly to individuals, but on social media. Anything that can increase the profile and negative publicity is often more likely to affect change. It probably won't stop them from raising the price, but you don't know if you don't try.

Personally, this has little impact on me since I've never taken advantage of this benefit. That might explain my laissez faire attitude towards this change. I also have little to no desire to travel to Hawaii which seems to be where many TUGGERs were wisely using this benefit and it is hurting the most.
 

piyooshj

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
278
Reaction score
2
Points
228
Location
Fremont, CA
Are you being sarcastic or serious?

I'm serious. Go log into revolution and see for yourself. ZERO availability for the entire months of Nov and Dec for flamingo. I see tons of availability prior to Oct 29.
 

Jason245

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,920
Reaction score
171
Points
173
I'm not having any problem finding units at Seaworld HGVC through Hilton.com in April. First random dates I put in (April 14-17) shows studios available for $109, 1-br for $139, 2-br $239, and 3-br $339.

Seaworld is long since sold-out so there shouldn't be any developer owned units there unless they hold a few by ROFR.

So maybe I should call BS on this one. What dates were you trying for? You said "April" and I found dates in April (first ones that I tried). Would this not imply that HGVC is reserving good weeks for themselves and not leaving them all for members? Just because RCI was sued but HGVC hasn't had a class action suit yet doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. I'd like for them to open up the books and the system to owners and let us see exactly what is going on. If someone turns in their Silver week in Orlando for HH points, does HGVC book a silver week in Orlando to rent out? Or do they book a few nights in Honolulu with those points? We don't know, because even as owners, we're in the dark. Just like we were with RCI. HGVC has a much tighter relationship with HGVC owners since they manage our resorts. If there are shenanigans going on with Open Season (and/or bookings by HGVC in other seasons) and Hilton.com, that's a real problem for HGVC.

I went to http://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/fl...cations-suites-at-seaworld-ORLSWGV/index.html

And tried to book april 3 - 6

No dice.

Just clicekd on the other dates, and I now see that it was just a fluke... I picked dates that were sold out (at random)..

now I am even more confused since the math needed to support open season that is available to us indicates that either 1. it is a mix of HGVC owned time and club perks.
2. A large chunk of weeks (and by large, I mean somewhere in the range of 10-15%) would have to be using club perks on an annual basis. My guestimates were closer to the 3-7% range.

I think the biggest frustration we are all having is the lack of transparancy.
 

piyooshj

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
278
Reaction score
2
Points
228
Location
Fremont, CA
Lack of transparency == something fishy
 
Top