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You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

easyrider

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When a fire happens at an oil refinery it can be put out with regular methods such as water and foams. When a fire happens at a lithium battery storage facility they let it burn as water isn't reliable to put out the fire. Recently in Nothern CA a lithium battery storage facility caught fire and burned for days. The smoke escaping the fire polluted an estuary and people living in the area are complaining of a metallic taste in their mouths. Kind of a bummer is the fire which was thought to be out re-ignited. Another bummer is this is the fourth of fifth time this has happened at this facility.

Bill

https://www.latimes.com/california/...-plant-sparks-call-for-new-clean-energy-rules


Extremely disturbing’: High levels of heavy metals at Monterey estuary after lithium battery site fire​


Days after one of the world’s largest lithium ion battery storage facilities burst into flames in Monterey County, researchers found alarmingly high concentrations of heavy metals at a nearby estuary that is home to several endangered species. Scientists at San José State University recorded a dramatic increase in nickel, manganese and cobalt — materials used in lithium ion batteries — in soil samples at the Elkhorn Slough Reserve after the recent fire at the nearby Moss Landing Power Plant. The toxic metals threaten to upset the delicate ecosystem at the Elkhorn Slough, which is the state’s second-largest estuary and plays a key role in sequestering carbon emissions and protecting the coastline from sea level rise, said Ivano Aiello, chair of the university’s Moss Landing Marine Laboratories.
 

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Well, I was talking about the picture right above what I quoted - the last "SUV" image that looks like it's got about 4-5" of clearance. I mentioned the Rivian's have the clearance, but there's 2 big problems. 1) They cost ~$70,000. 2) they have air suspension which historically has been both so likely to break and so expensive to fix that there's multiple youtube videos and channels that talk about converting them back to a normal suspension for an "affordable fix" when it dies.
The Tesla MX, MS, and CT all have air suspensions. Most folks have no issues with them. This isn't twenty years ago when air suspensions were problematic. I've had air suspensions on both my 2012 RAM 1500 and my 2018 RAM 1500's, never had an issue with either during my ownerships. My current truck is seven years old now, still going strong, no issues with the air suspension.
No idea what a CT is - last I heard it was a medical scan.
Cybertruck.
Well, my logic is this:
Have you ever walked up to a heavily customized computer of someone elses? Or maybe a DSLR / MILC someone else customized a lot? When I do, I find that I'm flailing a bit for a while cause I literally "don't know how to work it". I.e. someone is using a different window manager, or I don't know what the programs are called (like on a Mac). Or the camera example many people can't pick up my camera and use it cause they have no concept of back button focus, nor do they know where the autofocus button might be.

Now in these cases, it's almost always not a safety concern - you can miss some pictures (or take 100 out of focus ones), you can pull out your phone to look up what stuff is or even just ask the person to show you how to start a program etc.

So you'd rather have to learn where a myriad of physical buttons are instead? Makes no sense to me. It's not like any of the buttons "feel different" so you still have to look at them to use them, however briefly. I get what you are saying but whether it's button, knobs, or computer screen "buttons" there's always some kind of learning curve. The difference is, if you don't like where the physical button is located, you have no choice. If you don't like where the virtual button is located, move it on the screen to where you want it (within reason).

With a car - if you're thrust into needing to drive it - say you're on a trip and the owner gets too tired, or you rent an unfamiliar car, or whatever - well if basic things like heat, or signals, or ride, or whatever are unclear, soft buttons with no labels, there's no basic intuitive config that matches cause you know, most cars have substantially similar controls - even for like a radio (this has been changing which is my complaint). For a very long time, you could find a radio volume dial, and likely somewhere around there is a tuning dial. There's a dial, level, slide, for cold/heat, fan speed, there's some sort of shifter with at least P, R,N, D on it somewhere. I've seen all sorts of issues and various dangers as they've started "customizing" these things by brand, forget about by individual car. People who only knew cruise control as faster / slower toggle get in one that sets a desired speed, and all of a sudden they're "uncontrollably accelerating to 95" cause that's what they set when they held down the faster toggle. But they had no idea what was happening or why the car was still accelerating when they let go of the toggle. People who meant to go from R to D but hit P instead when it's buttons vs a shifter. People who thought the lane keep assist and auto follow was something very scarily wrong with the car not letting them change lanes or accelerate. Hell, someone who had a manual mode on the shifter and their husband accidentally hit it into that mode with his knee and found suddenly the car was stuck in 4th gear unexpectedly, and the car wouldn't accelerate or decelerate as expected.
Luckily, these all were in situations where there was enough of a buffer of safety and cool heads that no one wrecked and they're funny stories. But consider the Toyota carpet acceleration debacle where people killed themselves or others because the car unexpectedly locked in the throttle. And this was a "simple" physical thing they could "supposedly see" and easily correct by "pulling with their feet" to unjam the pedal or hit the brake.
You can turn on/off labels on the screen buttons - it's configurable (there's that word again). Want the scroll wheel to adjust volume? It's configurable (this is the left scroll wheel on Tesla steering wheels by default). The "shifter" on Tesla vehicles varies based on the model. Our MY has a right hand stalk that is the shifter (similar to the steering wheel mounted gear shifters in the old days in fact). The MS/MX/M3 moved to screen shifters with auto-shifting - which learns how you drive and shifts for you automatically based upon what's going on around the vehicle - 99% of the time it gets it right). My 2018 RAM 1500 has a dial shifter on the dash - took me a few days to get used to it - would never go back - having had a large shifter in my 2012 that took up a bunch of needless space on the console for example - what a waste of space. That space now houses a nice little covered storage area with mounts and ports to charge two smartphones (these connectors are also used for Apple Carplay/Android Auto connections). The only constant in this life is change really.
Now imagine the entire UI is customized via software. There won't even be "a standard" for rental companies to use anymore because it's just all customization. This is why pilots need to be type rated on each plane - because when you're flying (or driving) it can really matter how much the vehicle is muscle memory and an extension of you in "extreme situations". Now maybe someday we'll all be forced into some cloud thing where your face "auto configures" your settings to any car you sit in, but at least across brands and models, I think this is a LONG way off.
Not just software configurable - profile stored configurable that follows you everywhere in any Telsa. Rent a Tesla at any point? The settings follow you into every vehicle - your radio stations/entertainment settings/access - your seating/mirror preferences - your HVAC settings - etc. This is one of the many advantages of Tesla's vertical integration capabilities. Point being, what you describe already exists within the Tesla ecosystem - and has existed for years now.
This is horrible logic IMHO though - I don't want to find out the car I'm in somehow got the steering or brake and ... go? pedal reversed for giggles of the owner or last renter. Also, I think this appeals to a very specific audience - while I'm ranting about the issues above, I also find that there's another insidious issue. We see it all the time with Microsoft:
Most normal people don't customize electronics. You have to be a gear geek to do so. Most people use the defaults cause they either don't know or don't care to know any better. Even gear geeks probably are left hoping that the defaults are at least sane if they have no existing knowledge or interest in the setting.
But when Microsoft assumes (or pretends to assume in some cases) that people know this is customizable - the defaults aren't tested or thought through much - because "everyone is going to change it to suit them". This is how you get insecure / dangerous defaults - passwords blank or 12345. 90% of the world using IE6 still in 2011.
Again, this is all profile controlled - your settings follow you into every Tesla vehicle - so your point is moot.
 

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It's like you didn't comprehend my issue - the Honda thing also "works well". It's just not how I want it to work. It's strange how much you're for complete customizability as long as the chosen configuration is the Tesla default. I want to press a button or turn a dial, not talk to my car. It distracts me to even not use decades of muscle memory but to use type 2 thinking to conceptualize what sort of words are needed for the car to do what I want. "Spin Dial X location Left" is now a sub second mental process to cool down temp. Translating that to "Press voice button, wait for everything to get quiet, say Temp down" and now I'm thinking, how do I express 1/6 turn of dial? uhh, maybe I mean 5 degrees? Or do I need to find out what temp it is now - ok look at internal temp display, wait I'm supposed to not look, "Uh car, how hot is it in here", wait " I mean, what is the current temp set to?". Then it's like "Does the car understand any of that?" Usually you had to know the specific keywords and format etc.
I comprehend it just fine - I just see a lot of practiced resistance to change I guess. If that works for you, then by all means keep practicing resistance, meanwhile I'll adapt to change and move forward in life given change is the only constant in this life. Next quarter, Tesla will integrate Grok into their ecosystem, this means natural voice capabilities - so you'll no longer have to remember set words or variables to change anything. One more example of the power of OTA/SDVs.
On top of all this extra cognitive load because I'm now going back 20 years in my car driving intuition - I'm also thinking "This is going to wake people up with the change in fan speeds, change in radio volume, me talking, change back of volume and fans.

Nothing about this is what I want. What we had - a simple dial I can turn - is what I want. I'd also argue that for use spinning a dial is way more efficient once you learn how. Yes, someone who's never driven before doesn't have as much cognitive load, "translating", but many things IMO do not work well with voice control because IDK skipping the next 6-16 songs in your playlist till you get to one you like, but you don't know specifically which song it is or is going to be, is much easier with pushing a button.
That's why there are two dials that you can spin right on the steering wheel - and you can select the settings that are most relevant for you and spin away whenever needed. Switching songs in a Tesla is a matter of notching the left scroll wheel that also, by default, adjusts the volume, to the left or right. Easy peasy. I get that you don't like the new ecosystem, but there have been many people like you who were initially very resistant to change and suspect of the Tesla ecosystem, that now own Tesla's and would likely never go back to the "old way" of doing things now that they've experienced something that isn't five decades old.
Never say never. Again, Microsoft is trying to deprecate win32 after 30 years. But non OS vendors deprecate APIs all the time, hell again, look at Microsoft's cloud stuff that changes APIs seemingly every few years. I'll believe it when I see it on APIs never being deprecated.

Except when Apple wants you to buy a new phone so screws with the speed or battery life with an update...
This a vehicle not a phone, apples and oranges really.
See my other post, but I question how much useful configurability there is without changing hardware. All the "useful" changes I've done with cars - ones I'd very much like to keep doing - are all hardware changes. Adding skid plates, hitches, reverse cameras, front bull bars, lifts, better stereos, etc. I think the people who want to customize cars want to customize cars in ways I doubt Tesla is going to enable (and I'm not sure you can customize BEVs the same way) - got to watch where you screw in something - might make a sensor think you're going to hit something when it's an extra bumper, or might hit a battery pack with a screw. I could be wrong, but IME the max customization the masses do is setting a wallpaper and lock screen, and maybe --- maybe adjusting their list of apps ordering.
People who own 12 year old Model S are still getting OTA software updates with current versions of software. Their vehicle gets better and more functional over time via OTA software updates. No dealership to visit, no monies to pay - all 100% free. There's plenty of third parties that offer Tesla hardware upgrades - just like any other legacy manufacturer - there's an entire third party ecosystem for hardware upgrades if that's your thing, including audio upgrades, suspension kits, wheel/tire upgrades, etc.
Likely the UI gets slower over time cause the new versions always need more processing power, and I think even Apple drops iPhones after 6 or so years, Android stops after a couple years. Maybe Tesla doesn't do this, but I recall lots of complaints about FSD not even being possible in many earlier models that were sold with it being an OTA update now saying it needs different or additional hardware or processing power or something. So .... color me skeptical.
Like I said above, 12 year old Model S vehicles still getting OTA software upgrades for free. Maybe at some point a CPU upgrade might become necessary. Tesla has already upgraded the MCUs in older MS vehicles that purchased FSD so they can use the current versions of FSD - for free. If the vehicle was not purchased with FSD - then it's not free. This is and will be the case for any/all Tesla vehicles that may require a MCU/FSD upgrade at any future point in time.
Me allocating FSD the entire control and responsibility for driving. I can't take a nap or play a video game while it drives like I can if another person drives. And if I tried I believe cops would tell me it was illegal. Till that can happen, I actually think most any of these aids are actually dangerous because they train you to trust it to drive for you (to some extent) till it can't - and you're expected to be able to take over immediately. But humans don't work that way.

I want FSD that's the equivalent legally (and preferably better technically) of me having another human drive me around. That's the "take my money" game changer.
So this weekend we took a trip to Old Town Alexandria. Roughly 120 miles each way. I used FSD for the entirety of the trip - basically door to door. This is a trip that takes us on local roads, to major highway routes, RT301 to RT50 to I495 (the heavily trafficked DC beltway) to I95 to Alexandria. I literally never disengaged FSD until we arrived at the resort itself. Same with the road trip home yesterday evening in reverse. Door to door - no interventions - no disengagements - 120 miles. It's still a L2 ADAS system so the driver still has to pay attention, but it's Supervision not driving - so driver fatigue is not nearly as much of an issue - people don't realize how much driver fatigue is an issue until they don't have to actually drive for hours at a time. L3 ADAS is likely coming later this year via FSD - at which point you will not have to pay attention until the vehicle tells you to take over. At some point, L4/L5 ADAS will become available - it starts in June 2025 in limited markets for Tesla - and that delivers what you're asking about here - take a nap - play video games, etc. This is what the Cybercab was built for - no steering wheel - no pedals - 100% L4/L5 system, starting in June 2025 in limited markets (and on out from there heading into 2026).
 

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Never in history has any fuel been phased out when replaced. We still use everything we have ever used including coal, wood and manure. The other thing is there is no such thing as fossil fuel. Fossil fuel is only a clever name. There will always be oil but technology will provide a better product and oil might end up being used in the same way as wood, coal and manure are.

I have a feeling the plug is about to be pulled on Chinese ev's.

Bill
 

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Was that an AI Grok response ? If so it wasn't bad at all. I'm not sure who coined the term fossil fuel but I had read Rockefeller used it to create a scarcity issue to drive up oil prices.

The thing about crude oil is most of it is under the ocean. Most of this area is un-tapped meaning there is plenty of oil.

Bill
 

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The Tesla MX, MS, and CT all have air suspensions. Most folks have no issues with them. This isn't twenty years ago when air suspensions were problematic. I've had air suspensions on both my 2012 RAM 1500 and my 2018 RAM 1500's, never had an issue with either during my ownerships. My current truck is seven years old now, still going strong, no issues with the air suspension.
I still don't like the idea, but if they come to all cars I'll live with them.
So you'd rather have to learn where a myriad of physical buttons are instead? Makes no sense to me. It's not like any of the buttons "feel different" so you still have to look at them to use them, however briefly. I get what you are saying but whether it's button, knobs, or computer screen "buttons" there's always some kind of learning curve. The difference is, if you don't like where the physical button is located, you have no choice.
Don't buy that car? Like, I've never been very annoyed by a button placement in a car I own, because I didn't buy ones that didn't work for me.
If you don't like where the virtual button is located, move it on the screen to where you want it (within reason).
You miss my point - I have to learn the location of the physical button once per driving the car. If I own it, that's for at least 3 years, up to 20. If I rent it it's for the week or three. Touch screens I can never learn the location of the buttons.
Not just software configurable - profile stored configurable that follows you everywhere in any Telsa. Rent a Tesla at any point? The settings follow you into every vehicle - your radio stations/entertainment settings/access - your seating/mirror preferences - your HVAC settings - etc. This is one of the many advantages of Tesla's vertical integration capabilities. Point being, what you describe already exists within the Tesla ecosystem - and has existed for years now.

Again, this is all profile controlled - your settings follow you into every Tesla vehicle - so your point is moot.
First, I hope to never have to get in a Tesla again. Last time I ended up in an orthopedic center trying to get out of the back seat and needing a knee brace. I don't care what Tesla does, just like I don't care what Apple does. What I do care about is if I'm driving a Subaru, and then buy a Honda, but then the rental is a Mazda. But I also don't want settings magically following me - maybe if I choose to export to a flash drive and import with a flash drive physically in the car. But then I'm sure the dials etc actually aren't exactly the same and don't map quite right. And this is my point - I hope Tesla is never the only car manufacturer, and I'd love it if no one manufacturer actually drove designs - some people want the opposite of minimalism, and want nice designs of the car.
 

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I comprehend it just fine - I just see a lot of practiced resistance to change I guess. If that works for you, then by all means keep practicing resistance, meanwhile I'll adapt to change and move forward in life given change is the only constant in this life.
I don't like a company telling me how I have to drive really. A MAJOR part of the whole point of me owning the car I own is long road trips where people are sleeping. You're basically saying - instead of buying a car that works for me, we should not do the like 80% of the point of having a car. Newer doesn't mean inherently better. It can be better, and when it is better for me, I switch. But I'm interested in gadgets that work for me and work how I want them to work. I really don't understand the "everything should be customizable except when the customization is to be like it has been.
Next quarter, Tesla will integrate Grok into their ecosystem, this means natural voice capabilities - so you'll no longer have to remember set words or variables to change anything.
God no - I do not want voice AI listening to me in my car, especially without extremely strong privacy guarantees. At least no saving of data and no training on data, no recordings leaving the car etc... Also, the few times I use the google steal all my data voice whatever - it takes forever to transit over spotty 4/5g process and then respond. Sometimes it's a second or two, sometimes it's 30 seconds and then it gives up. I want instant response so I'm not wondering or taking mental load if it actually is working or not.
That's why there are two dials that you can spin right on the steering wheel - and you can select the settings that are most relevant for you and spin away whenever needed. Switching songs in a Tesla is a matter of notching the left scroll wheel that also, by default, adjusts the volume, to the left or right.
The point is - now you're talking about physical stuff, not a touch screen. Maybe I was unclear, my issue is the touch screen / voice control. I don't have a problem with programmable buttons except for the fact that they're entirely undiscoverable if anyone else has to use my car. I might just have to let "SDV idiots" drive my car a lot, but it's a requirement for me. I get it that you are the only one driving your car or only have people who have learned your customizations or also own the same vehicle and it transits their settings somehow. But to think that's the norm is quite the bunch of hubris.
I get that you don't like the new ecosystem, but there have been many people like you who were initially very resistant to change
I'm not very resistant to change. I'm resistant to change to things that seem obviously either worse or more dangerous. I'm resistant to change for the sake of change. I think I have been since I was about 18. Yes, tweens love the next new thing cause it's new, but most people grow out of that.
This a vehicle not a phone, apples and oranges really.
I'm saying I've seen this crap with anything cloudified - we see it with TVs, we see it with alarm clocks, and yes, we've seen it with cars - look up the amount of car issues when 3g went away because the cars were built with on-star like systems that only did 3g. Alerts of "safety components" that you can't turn off, and can't fix cause the company isn't making a new part for a 8 year old car. I don't trust any company to take on 20-30 year updates for a useful life of a vehicle including hardware for network access unless legally required to.
People who own 12 year old Model S are still getting OTA software updates with current versions of software. Their vehicle gets better and more functional over time via OTA software updates. No dealership to visit, no monies to pay - all 100% free.
That's good - would not have expected it. But I also won't count on anything not mandated by law for stuff like that - it's real easy to just stop doing it. Especially if a company discontinues a line, leaves a market or whatever...

Like I said above, 12 year old Model S vehicles still getting OTA software upgrades for free. Maybe at some point a CPU upgrade might become necessary. Tesla has already upgraded the MCUs in older MS vehicles that purchased FSD so they can use the current versions of FSD - for free. If the vehicle was not purchased with FSD - then it's not free. This is and will be the case for any/all Tesla vehicles that may require a MCU/FSD upgrade at any future point in time.
I'm not going to bet on the future, but good on Tesla - I saw people grumbling around FSD needing cameras added to the car and stuff a few years ago. But if they retrofit the car for free, then no complaints.
So this weekend we took a trip to Old Town Alexandria. Roughly 120 miles each way. I used FSD for the entirety of the trip - basically door to door. This is a trip that takes us on local roads, to major highway routes, RT301 to RT50 to I495 (the heavily trafficked DC beltway) to I95 to Alexandria. I literally never disengaged FSD until we arrived at the resort itself. Same with the road trip home yesterday evening in reverse. Door to door - no interventions - no disengagements - 120 miles. It's still a L2 ADAS system so the driver still has to pay attention, but it's Supervision not driving - so driver fatigue is not nearly as much of an issue - people don't realize how much driver fatigue is an issue until they don't have to actually drive for hours at a time.
Well, this sounds amazing, though again still likely unsafe because people stop paying attention when they don't need to pay attention. I still maintain given my own experience and what limited lay knowledge I have of human psychology - it needs to be NO self driving or Full Self Driving - supervision is not a good idea.

L3 ADAS is likely coming later this year via FSD - at which point you will not have to pay attention until the vehicle tells you to take over.
Will it give you like 60 seconds notice so you can actually get ready to take over? Cause that's what I'd want for me to consider it safe.
At some point, L4/L5 ADAS will become available - it starts in June 2025 in limited markets for Tesla - and that delivers what you're asking about here - take a nap - play video games, etc. This is what the Cybercab was built for - no steering wheel - no pedals - 100% L4/L5 system, starting in June 2025 in limited markets (and on out from there heading into 2026).
I don't want a cybercab, but yes L4/L5 or whatever is what I'm waiting for. Just in a vehicle I actually want.
 

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I still don't like the idea, but if they come to all cars I'll live with them.

Don't buy that car? Like, I've never been very annoyed by a button placement in a car I own, because I didn't buy ones that didn't work for me.
Agreed - you don't seem open to buying a Tesla. Fortunately for folks like you, there are other options in the marketplace, however I will also say, that most of the rest of EVs don't sell well, because they aren't SDVs. People, by and large, don't want "the same old thing" repackaged with a battery pack. The numbers tell the real story. Tesla is still outselling all other EV manufacturers combined in the US (and in most other markets as well). Ask yourself, why is that? Why are legacy manufacturers building EVs based on old ICE concepts not selling well? My answer is that they aren't building SDVs - which is what most people actually want. Granted not everyone, and Tesla was never meant to overtake the entire market - it's long term plan had a marketshare of 20% in 2030 for example - meaning 4/5 EVs sold in 2030 would not be Tesla vehicles. Variety is the spice of life with this in mind.
You miss my point - I have to learn the location of the physical button once per driving the car. If I own it, that's for at least 3 years, up to 20. If I rent it it's for the week or three. Touch screens I can never learn the location of the buttons.
I get it, but if you move the button to where you want it on the touchscreen - that's where it stays - until you move it again - and since it's all profile based - if my wife moves her buttons - and I get in and drive her car - I see my buttons where I put them since it loads my profile. Same if I rent a Tesla - my buttons are where I put them - same as in the Tesla I own. Pretty cool if you ask me, but obviously not for everyone, including you.
First, I hope to never have to get in a Tesla again. Last time I ended up in an orthopedic center trying to get out of the back seat and needing a knee brace. I don't care what Tesla does, just like I don't care what Apple does. What I do care about is if I'm driving a Subaru, and then buy a Honda, but then the rental is a Mazda. But I also don't want settings magically following me - maybe if I choose to export to a flash drive and import with a flash drive physically in the car. But then I'm sure the dials etc actually aren't exactly the same and don't map quite right. And this is my point - I hope Tesla is never the only car manufacturer, and I'd love it if no one manufacturer actually drove designs - some people want the opposite of minimalism, and want nice designs of the car.
Agreed - the minimalist approach isn't for everyone. Tesla is in negotiations to license FSD to several major legacy manufacturers. As I said previously, once FSD goes L4/L5 - legacy manufacturers are dead men walking and their days are numbered as autonomous driving takes over (and will be substantially safer than human drivers at that time). At that point regulators start looking at saving lives as the primary goal. So if FSD is 20x safer than human drivers - and 40-50k people die every year in motor vehicle accidents here in the US - that means those numbers drop to 2k-2.5k people per year for motor vehicle deaths. Are we really going to say that humans should continue to drive even if it means that we're essentially signing the death warrant for 38k-47.5k people every year? That's a tough argument to support on any level and for any reason.

Apart from that, licensing FSD means that the autonomous driving is licensed by Tesla - and you can still have your manual buttons inside the vehicle if you like - that vehicle just won't be built or sold by Tesla - but will still use Tesla tech to provide self driving capability.

Not to belabor my point, but bear with me for a bit here and think about how this type of transition will likely play out. If we are only a few years away from autonomous vehicles - and you don't have to ever pay attention to the road - who cares if the buttons are on a screen really? That's what you're not getting here - all Tesla vehicles were built for futureproofing when humans don't drive any longer. With larger high resolution screens and top-end audio systems so you can immediately start playing video games or watching movies or consuming pretty much any kind of online content you want - day one - without having to buy another entire vehicle to get this type of functionality. Elon is always thinking ten years ahead when it comes to things like this. Few other manufacturers do so (none of them do really) on any serious level.
 
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HitchHiker71

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I don't like a company telling me how I have to drive really. A MAJOR part of the whole point of me owning the car I own is long road trips where people are sleeping. You're basically saying - instead of buying a car that works for me, we should not do the like 80% of the point of having a car. Newer doesn't mean inherently better. It can be better, and when it is better for me, I switch. But I'm interested in gadgets that work for me and work how I want them to work. I really don't understand the "everything should be customizable except when the customization is to be like it has been.
Tesla's goal is - you don't have to drive. I just took a trip driving roughly 250 miles over the weekend - didn't drive at all except to enter my driveway literally (FSD won't pull into my driveway or park in my garage just yet - but it does exit my driveway just fine - and my development - and on out from there). The last time we went to attend a concert - we got there a bit early and some folks were tailgating while waiting (it was cold out that day). We sat in our Tesla toasty warm, hit Netflix on the main screen, and continued watching a show, picking up right where we left off on that show. How many other cars can do this? That's pretty cool to me at least. I don't want the same old car just repackaged - I want to be able to watch the same shows I was watching at home - in my car - listen to the same music (via Apple Music) in my car - right where I left off. I can do so via Apple Carplay for my audio at least - in my truck - but that's about it. In this case, newer for me is much better, but that's me.
God no - I do not want voice AI listening to me in my car, especially without extremely strong privacy guarantees. At least no saving of data and no training on data, no recordings leaving the car etc... Also, the few times I use the google steal all my data voice whatever - it takes forever to transit over spotty 4/5g process and then respond. Sometimes it's a second or two, sometimes it's 30 seconds and then it gives up. I want instant response so I'm not wondering or taking mental load if it actually is working or not.
Recordings don't leave the car - just like Sentry mode recordings don't leave the car (unless you grant Tesla this access via a toggle in the privacy settings if you so desire). We will have to wait and see how Grok is implemented, but just to be clear, the FSD computer in every Tesla is an AI processor (and it's chip redundant given the criticality of this system) and therefore FSD doesn't require any network connection - it is photons in (via the 8-10 eyes - cameras - in the vehicle) and driving outputs out - 100% locally processed using the FSD HW3/AI4 hardware processor onboard. The FSD computer is processing gigabytes of data per second: https://x.com/i/grok/share/0reN5lPl1zXzWlCYLj2mqzCFa
  • Frames per Second: The FSD computer is capable of processing up to 2,300 frames per second. This was noted in various sources, including Tesla's own announcements and technical papers.
  • Operations per Second: Each FSD chip can perform up to 72 trillion operations per second (TOPS), and since there are two chips for redundancy, the total capability is around 144 TOPS.
  • Visual Data Input: One post on X (formerly Twitter) mentioned that the FSD Computer (HW3) takes 345.6 megapixels of visual data per second as input.
  • Neural Network Accelerator: The neural net accelerator on the FSD computer can handle 72 trillion mathematical operations every second.
It's feasible this same computer could be used to process Grok language processing - though that remains to be seen.
The point is - now you're talking about physical stuff, not a touch screen. Maybe I was unclear, my issue is the touch screen / voice control. I don't have a problem with programmable buttons except for the fact that they're entirely undiscoverable if anyone else has to use my car. I might just have to let "SDV idiots" drive my car a lot, but it's a requirement for me. I get it that you are the only one driving your car or only have people who have learned your customizations or also own the same vehicle and it transits their settings somehow. But to think that's the norm is quite the bunch of hubris.
It's not my car - it's my wife's daily driver. I drive a 2018 RAM 1500 that mostly just sits in the driveway since I WFH. It's the norm within the Tesla ecosystem, which is good enough for me.
I'm not very resistant to change. I'm resistant to change to things that seem obviously either worse or more dangerous. I'm resistant to change for the sake of change. I think I have been since I was about 18. Yes, tweens love the next new thing cause it's new, but most people grow out of that.
One man's trash...though I disagree it's more dangerous given Tesla's safety record - and the fact that Tesla makes vehicles that according to safety tests are among the safest vehicles on the road today. It's not change for the sake of change, it's building cars today that will work in the near future when these same cars start driving themselves with zero human interaction - on day one. Which your Subaru won't ever do. No other vehicles on the road can do this. Tesla's can do this. When my vehicle is leveraging L4/L5 autonomous driving in a few years, and everyone else is still puttering around in their ICE vehicles having to buy another vehicle with autonomous driving (to the tune of 40-50k), I'll count my blessings and keep my 40-50k thank you very much.
I'm saying I've seen this crap with anything cloudified - we see it with TVs, we see it with alarm clocks, and yes, we've seen it with cars - look up the amount of car issues when 3g went away because the cars were built with on-star like systems that only did 3g. Alerts of "safety components" that you can't turn off, and can't fix cause the company isn't making a new part for a 8 year old car. I don't trust any company to take on 20-30 year updates for a useful life of a vehicle including hardware for network access unless legally required to.
I get it - you are skeptical. The proof is in the pudding - that Tesla is still providing updates to MCU1 vehicles from 2012 to this day. I'd imagine eventually this may no longer be the case, everything has an expiration date at some point. That said, you are comparing cheap consumer goods to a vehicle - again apples and oranges - with respect to continuity, road going safety, etc., that have legal requirements attached to them that must remain in place.
That's good - would not have expected it. But I also won't count on anything not mandated by law for stuff like that - it's real easy to just stop doing it. Especially if a company discontinues a line, leaves a market or whatever...
CSAT would seem to be an influential factor in this case as well - pissing off good paying customers is never a good plan.
I'm not going to bet on the future, but good on Tesla - I saw people grumbling around FSD needing cameras added to the car and stuff a few years ago. But if they retrofit the car for free, then no complaints.
Most of those folks grumbling own a model where FSD wasn't purchased outright and therefore they have to pay out of pocket for the MCU upgrades. Often they neglect to mention this fact, or they bought a used MCU1/MCU2 vehicle without knowing any of this (caveat emptor - buyer beware), and only came to understand this after paying tens of thousands for the used vehicle that won't run with FSD without an upgrade.
Well, this sounds amazing, though again still likely unsafe because people stop paying attention when they don't need to pay attention. I still maintain given my own experience and what limited lay knowledge I have of human psychology - it needs to be NO self driving or Full Self Driving - supervision is not a good idea.
FSD basically runs like an L3 ADAS system today - even though it's an L2 ADAS system, it'll "flash red" on the screen with loud chimes in the vehicle indicating the driver has to take over. If you ignore all of that - at the end of the day you are still the driver and you are liable for driving the vehicle, just like in any other instance when operating a motor vehicle. I pay attention for my part. Every now and again the FSD system does something boneheaded - it's still only a L2 ADAS system - it cannot handle every edge case that comes along just yet. But for the vast majority of normal every day driving - it handles everything pretty well - and here's the thing - today is the worse it will ever be - it's only going to get better over time. Just two years ago, Tesla FSD was on v11 and this system wasn't all that good. Now we're on v13.2.6 and we're nearing feature completion and approaching autonomous driving. Our vehicle is on v12.6.3 (13.2.6 is better), and it still drove 120 miles each way, with nary an issue. Pretty darn impressive really.
Will it give you like 60 seconds notice so you can actually get ready to take over? Cause that's what I'd want for me to consider it safe.
This isn't logical on any level. Can you predict the future in 60 seconds? No one can. Neither can the vehicle. This is a ridiculous assumption on every level. If FSD encounters an issue that it cannot handle driving 60-80mph down the road - you need to be paying attention today. That won't be the case for L4/L5 systems, but for now, this is the case. Why do 40-50k people die every year in automobile accidents? Because they cannot see the future either, because if they could, they would have avoided the situation that took their own life in the first place.
I don't want a cybercab, but yes L4/L5 or whatever is what I'm waiting for. Just in a vehicle I actually want.
Cybercab is where it will start - because this is Tesla's primary mission for vehicles - self-driving fleets. That said, they will likely still sell vehicles with the same autonomous FSD driving technology for personal ownership - with steering wheels and pedals for human's to drive the vehicle manually, at least as long as there's a sufficient market demand for non-autonomous only vehicles. Existing vehicles already on the road with AI4 hardware will also likely be capable of at least L3 ADAS if not L4/L5 autonomy. AI5 will debut with Cybercab and that will definitely support L4/L5 autonomous driving, AI4 remains to be seen to be clear.

That said, eventually, over the course of the next generation, human drivers will cease to exist. Kids growing up today, may never drive a vehicle, ever. That's hard for the older generations to imagine, but that's what's coming, it's a when not an if.
 
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Was that an AI Grok response ? If so it wasn't bad at all. I'm not sure who coined the term fossil fuel but I had read Rockefeller used it to create a scarcity issue to drive up oil prices.

The thing about crude oil is most of it is under the ocean. Most of this area is un-tapped meaning there is plenty of oil.

Bill
Yes. I tend to prefer Grok these days - I find it to be more accurate than ChatGPT or Co-Pilot or others most of the time. Grok V3 is being released in a couple of weeks - which will bring significant enhancements to Grok AI to boot. It's only going to get better.
 

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I hope you don't get stuck,lol.

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Due to the extra weight, it would be pretty hard to get that beast stuck in snow (or at least much harder vs. the comparable ICE version).

Kurt
Yes, most BEVs have nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution since the heaviest component - the battery pack - is centrally located between the wheelbase and provides a low center of gravity - which is why BEVs are least likely to flip even in bad accidents when compared to ICE vehicles. Yet another safety advantage.
 

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Despite the even weight distribution , low center of gravity, and Nokian snow tires, I did manage to get temporarily stuck on my own driveway. Admittedly it was partially my fault as I tried to go up a particularly steep incline on my driveway.

So I got to try out off road mode, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Lightning has a locking differential.

Once I got off my own property it was smooth sailing.
 

easyrider

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So I got to try out off road mode, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Lightning has a locking differential.

A few days ago I was up at our cabin in the Jeep that has a 6 inch lift, new mudders and after market everything for suspension and managed to get stuck in a 3 ft drift. I was in 4 wheel drive because there was about 2 ft of snow everywhere. Engaged the lockers and crawled right out. I wasn't surprised but was happy I didn't need to use the winch, lol.

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Despite the even weight distribution , low center of gravity, and Nokian snow tires, I did manage to get temporarily stuck on my own driveway. Admittedly it was partially my fault as I tried to go up a particularly steep incline on my driveway.

So I got to try out off road mode, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Lightning has a locking differential.

Once I got off my own property it was smooth sailing.

Wouldn’t buy a pickup (EV or otherwise) without a locking diff. Both my 2012 and 2018 RAM 1500 pickups have locking diffs. We surf fish on drive on beaches on occasion, having a locking diff comes in handy when traction becomes an issue in the sand.


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Will the locking diff. go bad if you never engage this feature?
Any engineered part or set of parts has a MTBF. That said, as long as you follow the recommended maintenance for the differential fluid/gear oil based on usage - it shouldn't be an issue IME.
 
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