You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

[davidvel]

Thanks! The point remains, in that this isn't a Tesla only concern.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Correct, it is a typical tin foil hat theory to state something that is generally true and then apply it only to the side they believe in.

I have a 6 year old Subaru. I can get on the 5 in San Diego and basically drive 25+ miles partially in bumper to bumper traffic for 40 minutes without steering, nor touching the brake or accelerator. How is that any different than the Tesla, other than my car is far less capable and likely to lead to an accident due to me being distracted?

 

[HitchHiker71]

Its a form of plagiarism I'm guessing, isn't it ?

I like some features of a Tesla but not enough to buy one, so freaking what ! There are many items that fall into this category.

Let me single out the main reason I'm not a fan of a Tesla self driving car. Like any ev it takes time to charge and I'm not willing to use my time charging an ev. Ev's are a software CPU on wheels so like a cell phone or laptop ,eventually the software changes. Self driving features allow the driver to relax and this state of ease often causes inattentiveness which is a distraction. The battery has a weight that makes for a heavy fast vehicle so any carelessness could cause a problem. A distracted from driving driver is not a good thing.

Go ahead and ask Claude and get back to me. I'm agreeable to postulate my own response which is what I have been doing for the most part.

Bill

The other way of looking at it is that most people driving today are driving distracted, whether via their smartphone, fiddling with their HVAC controls, radio controls, talking on the phone (even via Bluetooth is still distracting as studies have consistently demonstrated). So if we accept the premise that likely around 50% of drivers, at least, are already driving distracted, then driving a Tesla with FSD means that the driver in question is safer than the average distracted human driver. Tesla states 7x safer. As you said, a distracted from driving driver is not a good thing. A distracted ICE driver is very likely provably worse than a distracted Tesla driver using FSD, and that same ICE driver is much more likely to cause an accident than a distracted Tesla driver using FSD.
There are countless real videos online of Tesla FSD avoiding accidents from distracted ICE drivers around the Tesla vehicle - just search for them if interested. There are literally thousands of these videos posted online.

And yes, SDVs are software driven. How many cars have you owned that consistently get better over time from OTA software updates, introducing improvements and new features on vehicles since 2012? Tesla vehicles as old as 2014 with FSD using HW3 just received FSD v14 Lite this week - a major upgrade to the FSD stack for millions of HW3 Tesla vehicles already on the road that brought true to door to door driving to HW3 vehicles. Many other software upgrades and new feature releases have been introduced as well. Just as one example, Tesla introduced hands free trunk release late last year - hands full of grocery bags? Just toggle on the new feature in the UI and stand behind the trunk for two seconds and the car blinks the rear tail lights twice and the trunk opens hands free. Just one of at least a dozen software updates that every Tesla on the road received. Tesla vehicles, built using SDV principles, really do get better, in some cases noticeably better, over time. What you seem to view as a negative, those of us with real world experience know without a doubt to be a net positive - because we live it and love it every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[easyrider]

The other way of looking at it is that most people driving today are driving distracted, whether via their smartphone, fiddling with their HVAC controls, radio controls, talking on the phone (even via Bluetooth is still distracting as studies have consistently demonstrated). So if we accept the premise that likely around 50% of drivers, at least, are already driving distracted, then driving a Tesla with FSD means that the driver in question is safer than the average distracted human driver. Tesla states 7x safer. As you said, a distracted from driving driver is not a good thing. A distracted ICE driver is very likely provably worse than a distracted Tesla driver using FSD, and that same ICE driver is much more likely to cause an accident than a distracted Tesla driver using FSD.
There are countless real videos online of Tesla FSD avoiding accidents from distracted ICE drivers around the Tesla vehicle - just search for them if interested. There are literally thousands of these videos posted online.

And yes, SDVs are software driven. How many cars have you owned that consistently get better over time from OTA software updates, introducing improvements and new features on vehicles since 2012? Tesla vehicles as old as 2014 with FSD using HW3 just received FSD v14 Lite this week - a major upgrade to the FSD stack for millions of HW3 Tesla vehicles already on the road that brought true to door to door driving to HW3 vehicles. Many other software upgrades and new feature releases have been introduced as well. Just as one example, Tesla introduced hands free trunk release late last year - hands full of grocery bags? Just toggle on the new feature in the UI and stand behind the trunk for two seconds and the car blinks the rear tail lights twice and the trunk opens hands free. Just one of at least a dozen software updates that every Tesla on the road received. Tesla vehicles, built using SDV principles, really do get better, in some cases noticeably better, over time. What you seem to view as a negative, those of us with real world experience know without a doubt to be a net positive - because we live it and love it every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You makes some decent points for sure. Especially now that most ice vehicles are software centric. Tesla is probably the best of the software dependent vehicles. Even so that doesn't make them glitch free. Like any CPU if you input too many commands a Tesla screen can freeze up. To keep everything working properly in a Tesla requires more effort than any of my vehicles where I just hop in and go.

I'm certain a techie like you and many others loves tech so a Tesla fits you perfectly. I'm more of an outdoors road tripping minded driver. I like my vehicles low tech.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Now let’s be honest about what this thread actually was

To me this thread and pretty much all threads I participate in are mostly for my entertainment. Occasionally something comes up that is actually very useful or valuable. I don't mind you or anyone using AI. Sometimes it leads to subjects that are more interesting and ideas that I haven't thought of.

The thing about Tesla and self driving is that self driving allows for one less skill set which is actually driving. Once a Tesla driver gets use to being inattentive there is a driver complacency issue that can be dangerous. Because the Tesla feels very safe in self driving mode a driver might check out mentally and not be able to react to avoid obstacles. My biggest objection to supervised self driving is that the supervision can be easily gamed.

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Correct, it is a typical tin foil hat theory to state something that is generally true and then apply it only to the side they believe in.

I have a 6 year old Subaru. I can get on the 5 in San Diego and basically drive 25+ miles partially in bumper to bumper traffic for 40 minutes without steering, nor touching the brake or accelerator. How is that any different than the Tesla, other than my car is far less capable and likely to lead to an accident due to me being distracted?

Your Subaru isn't comparable to a self driving Tesla , lol. The Subaru tech you have is more of an adaptive cruise control with lane centering and cameras. What you are saying is similar to saying my car has 4 wheels so it's like a Tesla, lol.

Anyway, how do you like the Subaru ? I wish we had adaptive cruise control , lane centering and cameras when we drove your area of I-5. This type of driving is where a Tesla would shine.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

To me this thread and pretty much all threads I participate in are mostly for my entertainment. Occasionally something comes up that is actually very useful or valuable. I don't mind you or anyone using AI. Sometimes it leads to subjects that are more interesting and ideas that I haven't thought of.

The thing about Tesla and self driving is that self driving allows for one less skill set which is actually driving. Once a Tesla driver gets use to being inattentive there is a driver complacency issue that can be dangerous. Because the Tesla feels very safe in self driving mode a driver might check out mentally and not be able to react to avoid obstacles. My biggest objection to supervised self driving is that the supervision can be easily gamed.

Bill

Like many of your examples - they are using past data that is no longer accurate. Early versions of Tesla vehicles that didn't use cabin cameras for driver eye detection could be gamed using things like steering wheel weights and such, but even those workarounds no longer work as the software has been improved to eliminate using such workarounds. Supervision can no longer be gamed easily - and this has been the case since 2022 basically - going on four years ago now - which again - demonstrates that many of your examples aren't current/applicable and that the internet talking points are dated and simply rehashed and assumed as accurate by those who don't know any better. Which is really a shame, because many folks are gullible and believe that what they read from otherwise suspect sources resembles anything close to the truth, when the reality is quite the contrary.

 

[easyrider]

Like many of your examples - they are using past data that is no longer accurate. Early versions of Tesla vehicles that didn't use cabin cameras for driver eye detection could be gamed using things like steering wheel weights and such, but even those workarounds no longer work as the software has been improved to eliminate using such workarounds. Supervision can no longer be gamed easily - and this has been the case since 2022 basically - going on four years ago now - which again - demonstrates that many of your examples aren't current/applicable and that the internet talking points are dated and simply rehashed and assumed as accurate by those who don't know any better. Which is really a shame, because many folks are gullible and believe that what they read from otherwise suspect sources resembles anything close to the truth, when the reality is quite the contrary.

Considering that there are more used Teslas than new Teslas I think my examples are relevant.

Bill

 

[davidvel]

Like many of your examples - they are using past data that is no longer accurate. Early versions of Tesla vehicles that didn't use cabin cameras for driver eye detection could be gamed using things like steering wheel weights and such, but even those workarounds no longer work as the software has been improved to eliminate using such workarounds. Supervision can no longer be gamed easily - and this has been the case since 2022 basically - going on four years ago now - which again - demonstrates that many of your examples aren't current/applicable and that the internet talking points are dated and simply rehashed and assumed as accurate by those who don't know any better. Which is really a shame, because many folks are gullible and believe that what they read from otherwise suspect sources resembles anything close to the truth, when the reality is quite the contrary.

I appreciate your accuracy and tenacity, but tin foilers will never see the light, or even acknowledge that light exists. They will just say it is always dark becuase it was dark last night. You are basically banished the a life of Sisyphus to push a boulder up a hill, only to watch it roll back.

 

[easyrider]

I appreciate your accuracy and tenacity

I doubt it very much.

Bill

 

[HitchHiker71]

Considering that there are more used Teslas than new Teslas I think my examples are relevant.

Bill

Again, since these are SDVs, your underlying assumption that the older models haven’t been updated via OTA software updates to eliminate the workarounds isn’t accurate. Only models without in-cabin cameras are still subject to workarounds - and as I said - since the software has been improved - even those models are much more difficult to fool now. Only Model S and Model X models made prior to 2021 don’t have in-cabin cameras. Put another way, ALL of the mainstream M3 and MY models have in-cabin cameras since inception. So the vast majority of used Tesla vehicles on the road today are entirely out of scope regarding your attempted arguments here.

You really don’t seek to understand the underlying principles of vertical supply chain integration that are integral to SDV design principles that, unlike the legacy manufacturers to this day, allow Tesla to control almost every aspect of their vehicles via OTA software updates. This is basically proven by the fact that 90%+ of all recalls on Tesla vehicles are resolved OTA with no service center visit required. Try that with BEVs from the legacy manufacturers - the majority of which still require service center visits - because they use CPUs and firmware for their electronics from dozens of disparate manufacturers that they cannot change OTA by design. Legacy manufacturers build BEVs, Tesla and Rivian and a few others from China build SDVs. Huge difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[easyrider]

Again, since these are SDVs, your underlying assumption that the older models haven’t been updated via OTA software updates to eliminate the workarounds isn’t accurate. Only models without in-cabin cameras are still subject to workarounds - and as I said - since the software has been improved - even those models are much more difficult to fool now. Only Model S and Model X models made prior to 2021 don’t have in-cabin cameras. Put another way, ALL of the mainstream M3 and MY models have in-cabin cameras since inception. So the vast majority of used Tesla vehicles on the road today are entirely out of scope regarding your attempted arguments here.

You really don’t seek to understand the underlying principles of vertical supply chain integration that are integral to SDV design principles that, unlike the legacy manufacturers to this day, allow Tesla to control almost every aspect of their vehicles via OTA software updates. This is basically proven by the fact that 90%+ of all recalls on Tesla vehicles are resolved OTA with no service center visit required. Try that with BEVs from the legacy manufacturers - the majority of which still require service center visits - because they use CPUs and firmware for their electronics from dozens of disparate manufacturers that they cannot change OTA by design. Legacy manufacturers build BEVs, Tesla and Rivian and a few others from China build SDVs. Huge difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the Tesla camera can't be gamed why are there so many videos showing drivers how to game the camera ? Here is a current article showing June 2026 as a publishing date. Is it only in China that Tesla cameras can be fooled ?

Bill

Chinese drivers have figured out a silly way to fool Tesla Autopilot and it involves doll heads

Chinese Tesla owners are reportedly using miniature doll heads, photos, and blinking screens to trick Autopilot’s driver-monitoring cameras into thinking they are paying attention.

www.digitaltrends.com

Tesla’s driver-monitoring systems are designed to ensure drivers keep their eyes on the road while using Autopilot and other assisted-driving features. But in China, some Tesla owners have reportedly found an unusual workaround: tiny plastic doll heads.

According to a recent Wired report, a growing niche market has emerged around figurines and gadgets designed to trick Tesla’s in-cabin camera into believing an attentive driver is sitting behind the wheel. The most popular version involves miniature celebrity heads, often resembling actors or public figures, mounted near the rearview mirror to block the camera’s view of the actual driver.

 

[emeryjre]

Autonomous Vehicles Developers are being ordered to resolve this issue
As the story notes
The directive does not name a company

I cannot believe it would take a government mandate to incorporate this information into an AV system

Feds demand autonomous vehicle companies stop interfering with first responders | TechCrunch

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said emergency scenes are not "edge cases."

techcrunch.com

 

[divenski]

Looks like China is tightening up some of their regulations for EVs.

China Is Cracking Down On One-Pedal Driving (For A Good Reason) - BGR

One-pedal driving makes electric vehicles easy to manage for many drivers, but Chinese regulators are limiting how the feature can be implemented.

www.bgr.com

China is bringing buttons back to cars, ending trend led by Tesla

A new Chinese regulation will require cars to use buttons for safety-related functions, instead of putting them on a touchscreen.

electrek.co

And Europe too, and it looks like they might have started the trend.

https://www.autoblog.com/news/physical-buttons-could-make-a-comeback-thanks-to-a-new-safety-regulation

And NJ might want more than cameras for true FSD, ie unsupervised.

The robotaxi law that could ban Tesla

Tesla’s Robotaxi cameras can’t navigate through New Jersey politics.

www.theverge.com

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Here's another. Strong safety requirements.

 

[Elan]

Chevy built an all-American EV truck — why is nobody buying it?

Chevy built an all-American EV truck — why is nobody buying it? | TechCrunch

The Chevy Silverado EV is a solid first draft of an EV pickup truck. Here's what could make it better.

techcrunch.com

 

[easyrider]

Chevy built an all-American EV truck — why is nobody buying it?

Chevy built an all-American EV truck — why is nobody buying it? | TechCrunch

The Chevy Silverado EV is a solid first draft of an EV pickup truck. Here's what could make it better.

techcrunch.com

I think its because it sucks when used as a work truck. If it's a family use thing it might be ok.

Bill

 

[geist1223]

If they design an affordable Truck that can go 500 miles hauling a 25 Trailer and fully charge in 15 minutes I will consider it.