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Yesterday Bought 105k points + 2 PICs = VIP Bronze for $18,000. Rescind? Or a reasonable deal?

owebeewan

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I've read many extensive posts similar to newbies like me buying and the answer tends to be "rescind", which I am considering.
I realize that I can buy a resale and invest the saved money over time to pay for half the MF. I usually travel in High - not premium - season.

I have 2 South Africa timeshares that cost around $250 MF annually each that combine for the PIC's.

Here's the deal:
$18,800 for 105k points in Atlanta. $910 MF. Each South Africa timeshare entered as a PIC for 105k points = 315,000 points.
They also threw in 175,000 points and 2 RCI Bonus weeks, to be used in 2 years.

I've calculated 10-year costs both ways and in the end I'm paying roughly $18,000 for VIP Bronze status and Club Pass.

Two questions:
1) If I bought Wyndham resale, would I still be able to enter my South Africa timeshares into the PIC program?
2) Is there a reasonable argument that VIP Bronze will allow me to get the properties when I want to travel over not having VIP status?

Thank you!
 

Ty1on

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I've read many extensive posts similar to newbies like me buying and the answer tends to be "rescind", which I am considering.
I realize that I can buy a resale and invest the saved money over time to pay for half the MF. I usually travel in High - not premium - season.

I have 2 South Africa timeshares that cost around $250 MF annually each that combine for the PIC's.

Here's the deal:
$18,800 for 105k points in Atlanta. $910 MF. Each South Africa timeshare entered as a PIC for 105k points = 315,000 points.
They also threw in 175,000 points and 2 RCI Bonus weeks, to be used in 2 years.

I've calculated 10-year costs both ways and in the end I'm paying roughly $18,000 for VIP Bronze status and Club Pass.

Two questions:
1) If I bought Wyndham resale, would I still be able to enter my South Africa timeshares into the PIC program?
2) Is there a reasonable argument that VIP Bronze will allow me to get the properties when I want to travel over not having VIP status?

Thank you!
So PIC really is a great deal if you are paying up for developer points to get to VIP status.

However, I ask you to contemplate what real benefits both VIP Bronze and Club Pass will get you, and how many years it would take of these benefits to return your upfront investment compared to paying a couple thousand bucks for 315K resale points and travelling with those points, or if you would use Club Pass a lot, maybe buying a smaller resale Wyndham contract and a resale WorldMark account.

1. You can only use PIC in conjunction with retail purchases
2. Once per year, you get advance reservation priority in selected resorts. That's about all I can think of there.
 

paxsarah

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The only reason I would even consider that is that the MFs on your South African weeks come out to a very low MF when translated to Wyndham points. If you plan to convert them to Wyndham points every year, there's a break even there (how long depends on what resale property you compare it to) over time simply through reduced MFs. Then you can consider the very modest Bronze benefits as a bonus, if you're able to save using discounts and upgrades. (Assuming this is PIC Plus and not PIC Express.)

It still would take a while, and personally I'm not interested in putting up so much money upfront on the chance that it pays off a decade or more later, but the calculation I'd be doing is based on the low effective MF rate of the PICs.

Also as an aside, I'm not sure I'd seen the Atlanta MFs before. It doesn't seem like a particularly great MF rate like some of the other urban locations (even assuming that annual MF figure includes the program fee).
 

bendadin

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I thought that Wyndham was beginning to kick out those South African properties.

Are they really selling Atlanta now or is this Villa Rica with a jazzier name?
 

owebeewan

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Here's an updated rough analysis of a 10-year cost:

Resale
Resale MF for 315,000 points: ~2,520 ($8 per 1,000 pts)
Wyndham Program cost: $189 (60 cents/ 1000)
RCI Annual Fees: ~$80
3% annual investment return on saved up-front costs: (~$500)

Annual Cost for 315,000 points buying through resale: $2,289

Wyndham

Wyndham MF for 105,000 points: $910 (8.69 per 1,000)
Timeshare MF's for PICs: $500
PIC Exchange fees: $178
Wyndham Program cost: $189 (60 cents/ 1000)

Annual Cost for 315,000 points buying through Wyndham: $1,777

Over 10 years I calculate about a $6,000 benefit in annual costs buying through Wyndham, leaving $12,000 for my up-front costs to be in the VIP program. If I pay $2,000 for the resale property, that leaves a $10,000 cost to be in the VIP program over 10 years.

VIP Benefits: Free upgrades within 15 days, 15% less points for last minute buys, 3 guest confirmations

Thoughts?
 
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Ty1on

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I thought that Wyndham was beginning to kick out those South African properties.

Are they really selling Atlanta now or is this Villa Rica with a jazzier name?
They are really selling it.
 

Ty1on

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Here's an updated rough analysis of a 10-year cost:

Resale
Resale MF for 315,000 points: ~2,520 ($8 per 1,000 pts)
Wyndham Program cost: $189 (60 cents/ 1000)

Annual Cost for 315,000 points buying through resale: $2,709

Wyndham

Wyndham MF for 105,000 points: $910 (8.69 per 1,000)
Timeshare MF's for PICs: $500
PIC Exchange fees: $178
Wyndham Program cost: $189 (60 cents/ 1000)

Annual Cost for 315,000 points buying through Wyndham: $1,177

Over 10 years I calculate about a $10,000 benefit in annual costs buying through Wyndham, leaving $8,800 in my costs for the VIP program.

Thoughts?
You can do better than $8 per K on resale MF. You can routinely find $6 per K or less, it just costs a little more upfront on the resale market, in the hundreds incrementally, usually.

If you planned to use Club Pass frequently, also factor in a $99 exchange fee every time you do it (avoidable by splitting your resale ownership between Wyndham and WorldMark).

Another benefit of developer bought ownership that you aren't factoring is RCI Points membership. I'll let someone else speak to the value of that because I have no developer bought experience.

Finally, rather than calculate the purchase of 315K resale points to replace your deal, you might want to map out the cost/benefit of buying a smaller resale contract like 200K and using your Africa through the exchange system, like you probably do now. African resorts seem to be at increasing risk of shutting down or getting kicked out of the exchange systems, so there is a risk that you lose them in both scenarios (as PIC or as exchangers) in the future. If that happens with what you've purchased, you're going to find that 105K doesn't get you awfully far.
 

bendadin

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They are really selling it.
(8.69 per 1,000)
Insane! Though 18,800 isn't that far off from CWA telesales (unless you really need ARP for Atlanta.)
 

Ty1on

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(8.69 per 1,000)
Insane! Though 18,800 isn't that far off from CWA telesales (unless you really need ARP for Atlanta.)
That is an off the rocker insane MF rate for a brand new resort.
 

bnoble

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$8 per 1,000 pts
This is way too high. Even CWA is only $6.61, and those are basically free. You are also ignoring the opportunity cost on that $18K. And, even after all that you have a payoff horizon that is more than 15 years in the future.

Rescind.
 

Eric B

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If you want to use the PICs, buy CWA from telesales instead. Up front cost is about the same, but the MFs are a lot better (but still not great).

For your break even analysis, I'd recommend looking at what's available right now on eBay. You can find MFs there closer to $5 than $8. It would also be tough to exactly match the 305K.

One other downside to consider for the retail purchase is the limit on the number of PICs to two. If you have any inkling of ever wanting to move up beyond Bronze, you'd have to deal with these two to do things more efficiently effectively with 3 BR weeks. As others have posted, though, without the unlimited HKs, I'm not sure it's worth the squeeze anymore.
 

am1

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Need 3 bedroom prime weeks that give 254k or are those no more?
 

amycurl

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Would the fact that ATL is a Margaritaville resort have any benefit? Doesn't he get ARP at other Margaritaville resorts? Or am I making that up?
 

Eric B

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Would the fact that ATL is a Margaritaville resort have any benefit? Doesn't he get ARP at other Margaritaville resorts? Or am I making that up?
The new resort in Atlanta is supposed to be split between Margaritaville and Club Wyndham. If it was a Margaritaville contract (OP didn't specify), there would be RARP (11 months) for the other Margaritaville resorts using the 105K points on that contract. As a Bronze VIP (likely temporary Silver), OP would have to wait until the 6-month point to use the 210K PIC points. The 105K would only get a week in a studio in the value season in St Thomas; it might go further in the other ones.

 

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A couple of points:

If this was a Margaritaville contract, what the hell does 105k get you in that system? A night or two? I find it hard to believe that Wyndham would even sell a MV contract so small.

Also, regarding the PIC's, did you just do 1BR PIC's? Seems like a wasted opportunity, considering you can only enroll 2 PIC total

It wouldn't be something I would do.
 

owebeewan

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Good point about the 3BR PIC's instead of 1BR. I sent a text to the sales rep to see if I can "upgrade" the 1BR PIC's to 3BR for a total of 613K points.

FWIW - a asked the sales rep about the stability of South Africa timeshares within Wyndham. He said he guarantees that they are here to stay ;)
 

Ty1on

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FWIW - a asked the sales rep about the stability of South Africa timeshares within Wyndham. He said he guarantees that they are here to stay ;)
The only thing he can guarantee is that he gets a commission if he tells you enough of the things you want to hear.
 

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bendadin

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Good point about the 3BR PIC's instead of 1BR. I sent a text to the sales rep to see if I can "upgrade" the 1BR PIC's to 3BR for a total of 613K points.

FWIW - a asked the sales rep about the stability of South Africa timeshares within Wyndham. He said he guarantees that they are here to stay ;)
Well if you salesperson tells you that you can get 254k each for depositing your 1 bedroom in South Africa then you should run. That isn't exactly how it works.
 

Ty1on

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Well if you salesperson tells you that you can get 254k each for depositing your 1 bedroom in South Africa then you should run. That isn't exactly how it works.
The question regarded dropping the 1br and replacing wuth 3br. Salesman will say "absolutely! With purchase of another contract."
 

bendadin

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The question regarded dropping the 1br and replacing with 3br. Salesman will say "absolutely! With purchase of another contract."
But he will "submit" the 3 bedroom PICs under PIC Express as they do not exist although OP will be under the impression that it is PIC Plus.

A few years ago I went in to a sales meeting to figure out this PIC thing. At first they said they would take the DVC timeshares and deposit them as three bedrooms. Then they pulled out a list from Timeshare Nation and said to choose two of those 3 bedrooms and they would put those on the PIC Plus contracts. I hadn't even reached out to the company at that point. We rescinded, purchased what we needed, and did it correctly though with telesales.

With hindsight being 20/20 I now see how bad this would have ended going either of those routes.

Geez even on the correct path my PICs still fall off my account. And I actually had a salesman at Star Island ask me what I would do if my PICs fell off. Days later my PICs fell off. Hmm.
 

owebeewan

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Finally, rather than calculate the purchase of 315K resale points to replace your deal, you might want to map out the cost/benefit of buying a smaller resale contract like 200K and using your Africa through the exchange system, like you probably do now.
Good advice. Here's a revised cost estimate. This saves me about $700 annually. Total estimated savings over buying retail + 2 PICs over 10 years is only about $2,000. If I pay $18,800 for the deal, I'm left with the question: Is VIP Bronze worth $16,800 to me over 10 years?

Wow, I don't think so. Thank you very much. Can you point me to a thread that breaks down how I can get started? I've read terms in this thread like 'buy CWA telesales' but I don't know exactly what that is or what link to go to. I also hear 'Buy points on eBay' but when I go to eBay I can find only timeshares to purchase. I need a thread to break it down for me until I understand your language OR I am willing to pay someone for a phone call to guide me through.

Go Resale but With 200K points and Keep South Africa Timshares
Resale MF for 200,000 points: ~1,300 ($6.5 per 1,000 pts)
Wyndham Program cost: $189 (60 cents/ 1000)
RCI Annual Fees: ~$80
MF on SA Timeshares: $500
3% annual investment return on saved up-front costs: (~$500)

Annual Cost for 200,000 points buying through resale: $1,569
Annual Cost for 315,000 points buying through Wyndham PIC: $1,777

Total Savings of buying Developer Points Over 10 years: ~$2,000
 

Ty1on

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"Buy points on ebay" means to find a Wyndham Points Contract on EBay. Or Worldmark points, of course.

There is a stickied thread in this forum where you can find maintenance fee rates for most of the resorts. Use this to determine the MF cost of any contracts you see offered on EBay, because it can be confusing whether the seller got and posted the correct rate, whether that rate includes Club Fees, etc. You almost know the deal on program fees: $0.64 per thousand with a minimum of $165. independently calculate your maint fee cost and prog fee cost so you aren't led into a mistake by an errant or dishonest listing.
 
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