Wyndham salesman's lies to my friends

[SNA27]

From a sales weasel standpoint, they already lie and tell net new purchasers that they can return the timeshare if they don’t want it. This is an often asked question at the sales table which prompts an overly generic answer. People generally don’t ask for details and even when they do, the “daze and confuse” half truths approach is almost universally employed.

From a risk mitigation perspective having an actual exit clause would help to bridge the gap from half truths and outright lies to a contractual reality - it’ll be buried in the legalese of the contract either way. Then at least Wyndham could hang their hat on “it’s in the contract that you signed.”


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Ok, when QC has to read it aloud and ask me to initial it, that would be the wake-up call.
What would be a better course of action for Wyndham, imo, is to cut all the sales shenanigans, tell the truth and look for ways to shore up resale values.
That would please a lot more customers who can afford to buy but are put off by their tactics.

 

[SNA27]

Having a defined contractual exit strategy spelled out in advance is never a bad thing IMHO, so I disagree with your assessment here. You may not like the fact that timeshares are essentially worth nothing after a developer purchase (just like me), but having an exit clause would probably result in more developer sales for Wyndham since it’s essentially a risk mitigation strategy. The alternative is for owners to continue to be stuck with contracts in perpetuity just like they are today yes?

I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today. Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners.

What will happen if resale continues to increase from a market share standpoint is that the timeshare firms will simply make it more painful to obtain resale contracts by using ROFR clauses (many already do), and putting more and more limits on resale contracts (which an increasing number of timeshare firms are doing). Let’s be careful what we wish for here.

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What's wrong with that? Why isn't Wyndham doing all of that now to shore up resale values?

 

[Jan M.]

@dgalati is fundamentally right.
It makes no sense to buy at developer prices with 'great foresight' to turn it back into Ovations for $0 + 3 years of usage.
Greater foresight would be to run to exit while stopping by at the gift desk to grab the reward.

A great deal of this discussion seems to be geared towards the people who buy their timeshare with no intent or interest in owning it for more than a few years to come. I'm sure there are plenty of people thinking who does that and why? Many of us who bought either developer or resale after going to the sales presentations or being a family member or friend's guest think of our timeshares as something we, our children and grandchildren will enjoy for many years to come. Hopefully after we are gone too. That was what sold us on timeshares being something we wanted regardless of how we bought in.

We all get to make our own choices about how we spend our money. Sometimes wisely and sometimes not, but our money, our choices. I could win the lottery tomorrow for mega millions and still wouldn't spend even $40,000 on a vehicle. If you look at my info you can see that we are Presidential Reserve owners so clearly we spent big bucks over the years starting back 18 years ago. We've made excellent use of our points. I didn't track what we did in the first half of the year for 2019 but we were only home 27 nights from July 18-December 19. Currently enjoying a 9 night stay at St. Thomas Margaritaville in our 2 bedroom presidential reserve unit with amazing views. So, so, so not sorry about the way we spent our money.



We hope that it won't ever come to our son or in time our two granddaughters being in a situation that they need to give up what we bought. We all like to know that we have a plan or an out if things in our lives don't go as we thought or hoped they would. But if that time came for our son or granddaughters and they could get three years use of the points I would still say that the wonderful times and memories were worth every penny we spent.

We would never have spent the money on hotels or even renting from other owners to stay as much as we have over the years. In 18 years we could easily spent more on cars, without ever buying an expensive car, than we did for our timeshares. For me cars are functional not something that brings me joy. Cars certainly aren't something that would have given us, our son and his family, both of our families and some friends so many good memories.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Ok, when QC has to read it aloud and ask me to initial it, that would be the wake-up call.
What would be a better course of action for Wyndham, imo, is to cut all the sales shenanigans, tell the truth and look for ways to shore up resale values.
That would please a lot more customers who can afford to buy but are put off by their tactics.

Resale values on timeshares are never going to be remotely close to what people pay the developers, with few exceptions. Disney timeshares AFAIK hold some value - and a few others that are more of a boutique brand do as well. Hilton, Marriott and Diamond have the same resale value issues that Wyndham does more or less.

There is never going to be a “shoring up resale values” since there is no real legitimate secondary market for timeshare purchases, for the same reason that there is no legitimate mortgage refinance market for timeshares. Because they are basically a form of financing the future value of vacations discounted to present time, which is largely subjective IMHO, or what is often referred to as “perceived value” here in TUG and elsewhere with respect to timeshare purchases.

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[SNA27]

Ok, let me synthesize my original comment to its essence.
No sane salesperson would like to point out the incurable defects of a product he is selling.
No sane buyer would buy a product after its incurable defects have been brought to light.

 

[Braindead]

No sane buyer would buy a product after its incurable defects have been brought to light.

You just dug yourself a deeper whole to get out of!! I can’t believe you just said that!! No further comment needed

 

[SNA27]

You just dug yourself a deeper whole to get out of!! I can’t believe you just said that!! No further comment needed

Nonsequitur! Obviously, no further nonsequiturs would make any more sense!

 

[SNA27]

You’d be surprised how many of us here that have purchased directly from Wyndham knowing full well what the resale value is & I’m one of them but along ways from being the only one.

I understand your response & you love polls. Do a poll on how many have purchased from Wyndham after knowing the resale value.
Include a group that have thought about it or are considering a purchase from Wyndham

It's not that I love polls. TUGBBS has a polling feature and I played with it! As an incurable experimenter, I love to play with the toys I am handed and get maximum satisfaction testing the limits.

You want a poll, you could set it up yourself. But I would be glad to help. Think about your polling questions and PM me and I will post a poll.

 

[dgalati]

Your missing the point. I don’t tell resale only owners “ it makes no sense to buy resale “. I think it makes total sense for many owners to buy resale.
Any owner with under 400k points might as well own 100% resale points.
Personal finances makes a huge difference in my opinion as another example if an individual should stay with all resale points

Personal finace is not included in a developer sale. Wyndham finaces at 17% rates and above for a reason. It is unsecured debt no different then high interest credit card debt. Wyndham Ovation stategy is a option that will help many I agree but What they sold as a 30k vacation ownership is worth $0 when exiting. Wyndham sets the resale $ bar so low and this benefits who the most?

 

[dgalati]

My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?


I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.

Think about the income Wyndham recieves on the following at who's cost? Ovations will give 3 years of free use without paying maintenance fees to a owner who purchased through developer. Essentially it should be considered selling a stripped deed if Wyndham sells that deed to a new owner with all points available when deed is sold before the 3 years of free use.

 

[Braindead]

I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today. Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners.

What will happen if resale continues to increase from a market share standpoint is that the timeshare firms will simply make it more painful to obtain resale contracts by using ROFR clauses (many already do), and putting more and more limits on resale contracts (which an increasing number of timeshare firms are doing). Let’s be careful what we wish for here.

Hope you’re not holding your breath waiting for @dgalati to answer your repeatedly asked question.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Ok, let me synthesize my original comment to its essence.
No sane salesperson would like to point out the incurable defects of a product he is selling.
No sane buyer would buy a product after its incurable defects have been brought to light.

Agreed that sales people are not likely to point out weaknesses or known defects in the products or services that they sell. Every sales team known to man is going to oversell the strong points and not mention or downplay the weak points.

If Wyndham were to implement Ovations contractually, I’m 100% certain the marketing division would produce collateral that sells the strong points while avoiding the weak points, while providing talking points to the sales force to help mitigate the weak points - basically elevator speech talking points - to help address the weak points at the sales table when they are bought to light by prospective buyers.

Just because you choose to perceive something as a weak point doesn’t mean that it is a weak point, it is a perception issue on some level. Just like most other things in life. One mans trash is another mans treasure. Not everything can be boiled down to binary answers when perception is taken into account.


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[Braindead]

It's not that I love polls. TUGBBS has a polling feature and I played with it! As an incurable experimenter, I love to play with the toys I am handed and get maximum satisfaction testing the limits.

You want a poll, you could set it up yourself. But I would be glad to help. Think about your polling questions and PM me and I will post a poll.

I didn’t mean my poll comment as being a negative comment.
I truly think you’d be surprised how many here have made purchases from Wyndham while knowing the resale value of the contracts they’re purchasing or are thinking of enrolling PICs with a purchase in the future to obtain a VIP account

 

[SNA27]

Having a defined contractual exit strategy spelled out in advance is never a bad thing IMHO, so I disagree with your assessment here. You may not like the fact that timeshares are essentially worth nothing after a developer purchase (just like me), but having an exit clause would probably result in more developer sales for Wyndham since it’s essentially a risk mitigation strategy. The alternative is for owners to continue to be stuck with contracts in perpetuity just like they are today yes?

I will drop back and ask the same question I have asked before that has gone unanswered here. Is our goal to eliminate ALL developer purchases? If so, then our goal is to essentially bankrupt the timeshare companies in the process, at least as they are structured today. Perhaps this is the ultimate goal, but I remain suspect that this strategy will work out well for most owners.

What will happen if resale continues to increase from a market share standpoint is that the timeshare firms will simply make it more painful to obtain resale contracts by using ROFR clauses (many already do), and putting more and more limits on resale contracts (which an increasing number of timeshare firms are doing). Let’s be careful what we wish for here.

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I am very conflicted about the various takes on this subject.
I have heard resale owners claim that they're supporting Wyndham from collapsing by taking over MF dues. And that developer purchases don't really do anything for an existing resort which has sold all of its UDI. A resort is self-sustaining as long as its MFs are paid to sustain it. It's an irrefutable argument.
I used to think developer purchases funded new resorts. But there's much bigger capital chasing profits that can build new resorts if it made financial sense. So, developer purchases may just be funding extravagant executive pay and the unwholesome sales staff.
So, even as a VIPP owner with only developer purchases, I am unable to argue in favor of the hypothesis that Wyndham will collapse without retail purchase. They may collapse due to mismanagement and/or accounting fraud. If retail resale purchasers are helping pay the freight, it's hard to argue that they are the cause of any potential bankruptcy of a dubious and decrepit business model!

You can't blame the death on the scavenger, who's merely cleaning up the mess left behind!

 

[SNA27]

-- dupe --

 

[Fredflintstone]

From a sales weasel standpoint, they already lie and tell net new purchasers that they can return the timeshare if they don’t want it. This is an often asked question at the sales table which prompts an overly generic answer. People generally don’t ask for details and even when they do, the “daze and confuse” half truths approach is almost universally employed.

From a risk mitigation perspective having an actual exit clause would help to bridge the gap from half truths and outright lies to a contractual reality - it’ll be buried in the legalese of the contract either way. Then at least Wyndham could hang their hat on “it’s in the contract that you signed.”


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Good point. The key here is to read the contract before signing. If the salesperson tells you anything, it must be in the contract. Take your time reading each page regardless of how much pressure they give you to just sign and move on. IMO, if most folks did that, they would most likely push the paperwork back, grab their trinket and walk out the door.

Excellent point that point amount doesn’t change BUT MF and other fees do and always on the upside. So, in essence, they just jaci up the fees to compensate and leave the point amount alone.




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[SteelerGal]

I hope your friends decided not to go forward. We are a family of 7 and just can’t afford to spend retail pricing for one vacation. W/ resale, we now can take 4-5 trips for the cost of 1. Plus in really nice TS.

 

[LannyPC]

Do a poll on how many have purchased from Wyndham after knowing the resale value.

I didn't purchase retail from Wyndham, rather another company. That being said, one of the selling points that the sales weasel convinced us of is that we could easily turn around and sell it for about the same price we paid. We had no idea that, after the rescission period ended, the value would be around zero.

 

[LannyPC]

The key here is to read the contract before signing. If the salesperson tells you anything, it must be in the contract. Take your time reading each page regardless of how much pressure they give you to just sign and move on. IMO, if most folks did that, they would most likely push the paperwork back, grab their trinket and walk out the door.

True enough, but the reason people usually sign on the dotted line is not because it looks like a good deal. They sign because they have been there for hours on end, are mentally worn down, and just want to get out of there. They can't "grab their trinket and walk out the door" until the sales people sign off for it and the sales people won't do it until the buyers sign on the dotted line.

After dealing with sales people for hours, the last thing buyers are going to do is take time to read a 20-page contract.

 

[dgalati]

I hope your friends decided not to go forward. We are a family of 7 and just can’t afford to spend retail pricing for one vacation. W/ resale, we now can take 4-5 trips for the cost of 1. Plus in really nice TS.

You can also rent for less then paying maintenance fees in the 60 day booking window if your vacation plans are flexible.

 

[SteelerGal]

You can also rent for less then paying maintenance fees in the 60 day booking window if your vacation plans are flexible.

Yes, that’s how we started. Then we found out about RedWeek.

 

[OutSkiing]

I have heard resale owners claim that they're supporting Wyndham from collapsing by taking over MF dues. And that developer purchases don't really do anything for an existing resort which has sold all of its UDI. A resort is self-sustaining as long as its MFs are paid to sustain it. It's an irrefutable argument.

After all of a resort is sold out, there is still attrition. I believe if the developer did not step in and do aggressive marketing, over time the HOA could be stuck with un-owned units and they may have to increase maintenance fees for the remaining owners. Take a read of what happened to Carriage Hill (re-posted today on this site here).

As for where the money goes when 'used' contracts are re-sold at retail I do believe the majority goes to the Wyndham sales organization. It's a pretty big operation. Imagine setting up to sell a small resort of say 100 units when it is first developed. Each unit has to be sold 52 times adding up to 5200 sales! We're used to paying 6% commission on home sales but if my home had to be sold 52 times before it was really off my hands I'm sure the commission would be sky high. Somehow that rate has carried over to the re-marketed units. You could make the case that re-marketed units should cost less.

Bob

 

[Manedg]

So, i have a weeks timeshare with Silverleaf Resorts. What is the best way to get rid of it? my monthly fees are 107.00 per month.

Sorry if this is off topic, but I just got rid of my Silverleaf. I've paid it off , called their deeding department and told them they can have it back, They sent me a warranty deed, notarized it and sent it back. I am a free man now, yay.

 

[pedro47]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I just got rid of my Silverleaf. I've paid it off , called their deeding department and told them they can have it back, They sent me a warranty deed, notarized it and sent it back. I am a free man now, yay.

Your post is not off topic. Maybe, another owner at Silverleaf, can follow your suggestions. The key was your TS was paid off. IMHO.

 

[dgalati]

Your post is not off topic. Maybe, another owner at Silverleaf, can follow your suggestions. The key was your TS was paid off. IMHO.

@Grammarhero Would this OP have been better off walking away and defaulting then paying off before giving back? @SNA27 I do miss his point of view.