Wyndham salesman's lies to my friends

[silentg]

Yes, it was bought by HICV. I saw them today. they tried to get met convert to HICV for the mere price of $40,000 they will take my deed back and stick me with another one. But i will call and see if they would just take it back.

Yes That is what I would do.

 

[Fredflintstone]

Thanks for the share. This court document all but proves IMHO what I’ve always said - plausible deniability is used to isolate the executive team - but they are all 100% aware of and indirectly - by doing nothing about any of it - approve of the miserable sales tactics employed. The case is dated March 2017 so it was a few years ago and certainly before the new CEO joined Wyndham - but old habits die hard. The ends still seem to justify the means.


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I appreciate your opinion. Here’s another one that (so far) is not going well for Wyndham. Who knows, things can turn as we progress.

Read this one, do you see a pattern?

And I could share another 360 more similar to this one that I know have been filed in 2019. Could be more...not sure...

https://www.truthinadvertising.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Deneen-v-Wyndham-Vacation-Resorts-complaint.pdf

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[Fredflintstone]

My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?


I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.

Your points are well taken. The contracts signed by owners do bind them together. Please excuse the analogy but it reminds me of slaves chained together and marching to the work site. If some die off, the rest must put in extra efforts to drag the corpses to the site so they can be unchained from the group.

Sadly, IMO, that’s how I see ownership. All chained together and angry if some drop off leaving them to pull harder. The danger is too many die off resulting in the few left collapsing and dying of exhaustion.

Now, let’s say a few find a way to escape the chains and break free. Should they remain with the herd chained or escape to freedom? That’s a hard question and one that requires thought.

Should we criticize those trying to break free? Maybe, we should break free too? Some slaves do love slavery though because that’s all they know. Who knows, their master may show some kindness towards them. They are welcome to remain chained. However, they must drag the corpses as part of their choice to remain enslaved.

Sadly, the market is flooded with desperate folks trying hard to break free from their timeshare contracts. They try to get out by attempting to sell it for free and even pay transfer costs. The resort wants them to either remain chained or find a new owner to take their place. Some resorts, like kind masters, do allow freedom through deed back programs (yay). The rest dole out threatening letters crafted by the resort to demand payment like a master cracking the whip.

Timeshares are the very few things in the marketplace that are very hard to break free of. Thank God a few states have laws to allow folks to finally be free. People in the know can reach freedom through a few states who happens to be the master of all within that state. Almost the same as when slavery was abolished by the state. The master was no more even though they resented the change in law.

That’s why I now rent. I have the power to price compare. I can use the market to give me competitive prices. I can tell a resort to stick it and walk if they are out of line on pricing. In short, freedom.

Now, I do respect those who wish to be chained to the contract. Many say it’s benefitting them. They say they save tons and yes the resorts are beautiful places. But...they are chained to a contract and as such must carry the load no matter how heavy it may or may not get. This does include those who are trying to break free. That’s just a drawback of ownership that you must accept as an owner.

One thing to remember, non performing inventory is rented out (units with no Owner or MF attached to them) and many times those dollars EXCEED the MF. The master has ways to still make money without enslaving the rest. Oh, and those foreclosed units are sold (sometimes at a profit after costs of foreclosure) resulting in things stabilizing once again if the resort is on the ball.

Here are some links to justify my point by resorts themselves.

Non-Performing Inventory: Make It Work for You | Grand Pacific Resorts

A robust rental program offers long-term self-sufficiency and financial health in addition to attracting potential new owners to your resort.

grandpacificresorts.com

Hanalei Bay Resort Rises from the Ashes | Grand Pacific Resorts

Thanks to the strong leadership and thoughtful collaboration of the AOAO and VOA, the resort’s new and long-time owners now have a beautiful piece of paradise to call home.

grandpacificresorts.com

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[Braindead]

My response to that person would be, are the lawyers working for free? The resort has to come up with funds to pay their fees. Where else will they get the money from? Are they running an illegal casino in the basement?
I don’t expect people to know how businesses function. Just know that the money comes from somewhere. It doesn’t just magically appear. Unless they are running a brothel in one of their buildings, their main source of income is the owners.

I was going to say, maybe I should change my screen name to a females name so the individual only likes my post as well instead of telling me I’m wrong.
I thought of Richelle2 or Jan M-180. Sorry Jan if that offended you but after adding the 1 I thought of M-180 after all I like to blast them at times.lol
But now I see I’m too late as they responded to Richelle as well

 

[Fredflintstone]

I was going to say, maybe I should change my screen name to a females name so the individual only likes my post as well instead of telling me I’m wrong.
I thought of Richelle2 or Jan M-180. Sorry Jan if that offended you but after adding the 1 I thought of M-180 after all I like to blast them at times.lol
But now I see I’m too late as they responded to Richelle as well

Braindead can be male or female.

There are times I like your points and do acknowledge when your points have validity or I agree with them.

You do craft clever comments.


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[LannyPC]

Sales Weasels get away with their lies because...

...you can't prove that they lied. It's just the marks' words against the sales people's. And yes, the language and clauses in the contract are another reason.

 

[Fredflintstone]

...you can't prove that they lied. It's just the marks' words against the sales people's. And yes, the language and clauses in the contract are another reason.

Great point.

One of the latest strategies being employed by some developers is to video record the entire signing process. I understand this has helped many a resort prove they are the ones being lied about.

I can see video recording on sign offs becoming the norm very soon.


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[LannyPC]

They should call the resort first before walking away. Some resorts have deedback programs. Walking away should only be done when there are no other options. The owners of that resort have to pay for the lawyers and debt collection agencies to try and get payment. When that fails, the owners pay for the lawyers to foreclose on the property. They pay all of this in the form of their maintenance fees increasing. This is especially costly for owners of the smaller resorts because there are fewer owners to split the costs.

Totally agree. It's cheaper for the resort to take it back from an owner amicably than to go through the costs and rigours of foreclosure. The resort's HOA might even get the owner to pay closing costs and the next MF. That works out even better for the resort and HOA.

 

[Fredflintstone]

Totally agree. It's cheaper for the resort to take it back from an owner amicably than to go through the costs and rigours of foreclosure. The resort's HOA might even get the owner to pay closing costs and the next MF. That works out even better for the resort and HOA.

Deedbacks programs need to be applauded. I think if timeshares were easier to escape from, more folks may buy in and the resale values will go up too. The master-slave analogy would be broken with viable outs.

To the developers credit, they are starting to see deed backs as a solution and possibly profitable too. When I was reading the financials of WYND, I saw a line showing revenue from converting deed backs to retail pricing on new owners on some resorts. It’s like a gift that can keeps on giving.


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[LannyPC]

One of the latest strategies being employed by some developers is to video record the entire signing process. I understand this has helped many a resort prove they are the ones being lied about.

Yeah, they might record the signing process which shows that the buyer(s) signed of their own free will, but the videos do not record the sales process which records all the skewed figures, omission of pertinent facts, half-truths, and outright lies that the sales people tell.

Although, it would be funny if it weren't so tragic, to have the signing process recorded with the buyers shown as angry, tired, hungry, and emotionally drained after a 4-hour sales presentation.

 

[Fredflintstone]

Yeah, they might record the signing process which shows that the buyer(s) signed of their own free will, but it the videos do not record the sales process which records all the skewed figures, omission of pertinent facts, half-truths, and outright lies that the sales people tell.

Although, it would be funny if it weren't so tragic, to have the signing process recorded with the buyers shown as angry, tired, hungry, and emotionally drained after a 4-hour sales presentation.

Yes recording would be selective for sure. I think they want to show that they reviewed recission and some key conditions. Perhaps just enough to prove an informed sign off. Im with you. Any dirty business will not be recorded.


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[cman]

Wyndham’s sales practices has been smacked before the Courts a few times.

This Court verdict is very revealing.

https://dolanlawfirm.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Order-On-Post-Trial-Motions-20170310.pdf

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Thanks for sharing that link. In the long run, I guess it's just more of what we already know. I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.

 

[Fredflintstone]

Thanks for sharing that link. In the long run, I guess it's just more of what we already know. I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.

Im with you.




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[paxsarah]

Thanks for sharing that link. In the long run, I guess it's just more of what we already know. I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.

As a resale owner, I’ve never done business with the sales staff and never heard the lies and misrepresentations firsthand. The resort and phone staff have been nothing but helpful and on the up-and-up, in my experience. I see it kind of like I don’t want to have to haggle with a used-car guy who doesn’t have my best interest at heart, so I buy at a set price through Carmax instead. Just because the sales guy might use high pressure tactics, the car itself is perfectly good.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

.... I'm a timeshare "user". I rent and have never owned. I just never could wrap my head around doing business with someone, where the expectation was
that they would lie to me and misrepresent their product.

....... I see it kind of like I don’t want to have to haggle with a used-car guy who doesn’t have my best interest at heart, so I buy at a set price through Carmax instead. Just because the sales guy might use high pressure tactics, the car itself is perfectly good.

Volkswagen - comes to mind
Their diesel testing / compliance “issue” - doesn’t mean Volkswagen’s aren’t good vehicles .

 

[HitchHiker71]

Deedbacks programs need to be applauded. I think if timeshares were easier to escape from, more folks may buy in and the resale values will go up too. The master-slave analogy would be broken with viable outs.

To the developers credit, they are starting to see deed backs as a solution and possibly profitable too. When I was reading the financials of WYND, I saw a line showing revenue from converting deed backs to retail pricing on new owners on some resorts. It’s like a gift that can keeps on giving.


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On a related note - one of the items that the COO specifically mentioned at the annual owners meeting in Austin is that they are seriously looking into time locked timeshare agreements - due mostly in part that their marketing research indicates that modern buyers from the two most recent generations (millennials and beyond) don't want to be timelocked into anything in perpetuity. Wyndham is therefore looking at the viability of selling timelocked timeshare contracts - basically leases - instead of the permanent contracts sold today. I actually see this as "advantage Wyndham" because - just like with vehicle leases - you effectively get to resell the same inventory at future - read higher - prices if people renew their timeshare lease.

 

[55plus]

...you can't prove that they lied. It's just the marks' words against the sales people's. And yes, the language and clauses in the contract are another reason.

They've lie to my face many times. The weasels don't like to be questioned and called out on their lies because I've done it. Is there anyone on TUG who wasn't lied to by a weasel? Very few if any.

 

[LannyPC]

They've lie to my face many times. The weasels don't like to be questioned and called out on their lies because I've done it. Is there anyone on TUG who wasn't lied to by a weasel?

I'm not saying they don't lie. I've been lied to by these sales people before. I'm saying that you have to prove that they lied. Unfortunately, your word against theirs is not going to hold up in court. Since the only proof that you have that they lied is telling what they said to you, the sales people can get away with lying.

 

[55plus]

I'm not saying they don't lie. I've been lied to by these sales people before. I'm saying that you have to prove that they lied. Unfortunately, your word against theirs is not going to hold up in court. Since the only proof that you have that they lied is telling what they said to you, the sales people can get away with lying.

The disclaimer about promises being moot if not written into the contract prevents the 'he said, she said' from going to mediation or moving forward in the courts.

 

[Fredflintstone]

On a related note - one of the items that the COO specifically mentioned at the annual owners meeting in Austin is that they are seriously looking into time locked timeshare agreements - due mostly in part that their marketing research indicates that modern buyers from the two most recent generations (millennials and beyond) don't want to be timelocked into anything in perpetuity. Wyndham is therefore looking at the viability of selling timelocked timeshare contracts - basically leases - instead of the permanent contracts sold today. I actually see this as "advantage Wyndham" because - just like with vehicle leases - you effectively get to resell the same inventory at future - read higher - prices if people renew their timeshare lease.

That’s actually a cool idea for both owner and developer. This would give a viable out at some point for the owner. On the developers side, the plus is they can potentially scoop up more dollars on a renew.

It would be interesting to see if all contracts were converted to leases. I am not sure if that would be possible. What the developer could do (maybe, but I would see court challenges) is jack up the MF on owners to force them to move to lease at a lower rate?

IMO, they should convert all TS to membership. One would pay an initiation fee (which could be the same as a retail cost) and then yearly membership fees. The member could choose to let the membership expire yearly, the resort keeps full control of the property and one would resell their membership. In my mind, this is more honest anyway as the “owner” is not really an owner in a sense. The resort can change hands. If you were a true owner, that would not happen without your expressed consent. You are more like a shareholder than an owner.

Frankly, the only thing you “own” are the bills and some time.


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[rickandcindy23]

@Timesharehater123! you just bought the wrong system and paid dearly for it. All timeshares are not horrible. If you owned something in the Vistana/ Marriott system, you would feel differently, I would think. There are tens of thousands of happy owners on this site; otherwise, there would be no TUG, except maybe a few disgruntled people who are unhappy. I am quite happy with my owned units. There are only a few I would dump.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

So, i have a weeks timeshare with Silverleaf Resorts. What is the best way to get rid of it? my monthly fees are 107.00 per month.

Yes, it was bought by HICV. I saw them today. they tried to get met convert to HICV for the mere price of $40,000 they will take my deed back and stick me with another one. But i will call and see if they would just take it back.

There are TUG threads about HICV buying Silverleaf in 2016 .
AND the sales pressure to convert from Silverleaf fixed weeks to HICV points .

The additional issue beyond the $ 40K is that some owners who did convert were not given full information on how much $$$ their MF would end up increasing.and that the Silverleaf last minute bonus time program would disappear upon converting .

If it is fully paid for &you want out - contact them about deeding back .
If HIVC won’t consider this - you could choose to stop paying & take the credit report hit .
There is anecdotal information on TUG that you can research .

 

[Richelle]

That’s actually a cool idea for both owner and developer. This would give a viable out at some point for the owner. On the developers side, the plus is they can potentially scoop up more dollars on a renew.

It would be interesting to see if all contracts were converted to leases. I am not sure if that would be possible. What the developer could do (maybe, but I would see court challenges) is jack up the MF on owners to force them to move to lease at a lower rate?

IMO, they should convert all TS to membership. One would pay an initiation fee (which could be the same as a retail cost) and then yearly membership fees. The member could choose to let the membership expire yearly, the resort keeps full control of the property and one would resell their membership. In my mind, this is more honest anyway as the “owner” is not really an owner in a sense. The resort can change hands. If you were a true owner, that would not happen without your expressed consent. You are more like a shareholder than an owner.

Frankly, the only thing you “own” are the bills and some time.


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First, no they cannot change the terms of the contract. Changing it to a lease would require them to re-record the deed with different terms. Specifically remove the in perpetuity part. That would require your permission and signature. Secondly, Wyndham does not set the maintenance fees. They set the program fee which is lumped in with the maintenance fee payment every month. To increase the HOA fees to a point people want out, they would have to talk the HOA into increasing the maintenance fees to a high enough level for that to happen. They would have to do that with many resorts. It’s unlikely they would try that, because no matter how hard they tried, it would get out that they were trying to force people out by jacking up the maintenance fees. That would not look good, and yes, create legal issues for them. Plus, the HOA’s would have to spend that money or pay tax on it. The HOA board members would have to agree to whatever it is they are spending money on. Many are NOT Wyndham employees and would blow the whistle on that type of behavior. So it’s very unlikely that scenario would occur. More likely, it will be a new product. A different ownership type. Like CWA is an ownership type, they may start a new ownership type that has an expiration. Maybe it gets set up similar to Discovery where there is no home resort. They just have points to use at participating resorts. Finally, I wouldn’t want them to convert to a lease. I paid for in perpetuity. If they want to give the owner the option to change, that’s fine, but they SHOULD’NT convert all contracts.

Also, on my deeded contracts, I own a portion of the resort regardless of who’s name is on that building. The name on the building is who manages the resort. If it were not “real” ownership, we wouldn’t have to record a deed. It would be just an assumption agreement like CWA and Margaritaville.

 

[Fredflintstone]

First, no they cannot change the terms of the contract. Changing it to a lease would require them to re-record the deed with different terms. Specifically remove the in perpetuity part. That would require your permission and signature. Secondly, Wyndham does not set the maintenance fees. They set the program fee which is lumped in with the maintenance fee payment every month. To increase the HOA fees to a point people want out, they would have to talk the HOA into increasing the maintenance fees to a high enough level for that to happen. They would have to do that with many resorts. It’s unlikely they would try that, because no matter how hard they tried, it would get out that they were trying to force people out by jacking up the maintenance fees. That would not look good, and yes, create legal issues for them. Plus, the HOA’s would have to spend that money or pay tax on it. The HOA board members would have to agree to whatever it is they are spending money on. Many are NOT Wyndham employees and would blow the whistle on that type of behavior. So it’s very unlikely that scenario would occur. More likely, it will be a new product. A different ownership type. Like CWA is an ownership type, they may start a new ownership type that has an expiration. Maybe it gets set up similar to Discovery where there is no home resort. They just have points to use at participating resorts. Finally, I wouldn’t want them to convert to a lease. I paid for in perpetuity. If they want to give the owner the option to change, that’s fine, but they SHOULD’NT convert all contracts.

Also, on my deeded contracts, I own a portion of the resort regardless of who’s name is on that building. The name on the building is who manages the resort. If it were not “real” ownership, we wouldn’t have to record a deed. It would be just an assumption agreement like CWA and Margaritaville.

Yes, I’m pretty sure you are right on changing ownership to leases. However, on other items, they can change point value and other terms with notice. Your trading power can be adjusted. Yes, you own 1/52 per deed normally. However, it is more like a shareholder scenario. You “own” a small fraction but have little say on what happens. You can outline your concerns to the BOD, but they are under no obligation to act on them. On points systems, you normally own a very small fraction of the total trust. Again, your share means you have little say (other than to communicate your concerns) on what happens.

As for MF and other fees, they really do have the right to charge at will as per contracts. Every contract I have seen states this and that they can assign to anyone they want (however, you can not assign on your end).


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[Richelle]

Yes, I’m pretty sure you are right on changing ownership to leases. However, on other items, they can change point value and other terms with notice. Your trading power can be adjusted. Yes, you own 1/52 per deed normally. However, it is more like a shareholder scenario. You “own” a small fraction but have little say on what happens. You can outline your concerns to the BOD, but they are under no obligation to act on them. On points systems, you normally own a very small fraction of the total trust. Again, your share means you have little say (other than to communicate your concerns) on what happens.

As for MF and other fees, they really do have the right to charge at will as per contracts. Every contract I have seen states this and that they can assign to anyone they want (however, you can not assign on your end).


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They cannot change point values of the resorts when they are set. If they add buildings to existing resorts, they can and do set different point values for them, but the existing ones stay the same. The fraction of ownership you own, does not change. If you bought when there was only building 1 and 2, and you bought enough points for a one bedroom, you will have enough points for a one bedroom in those two buildings. That will not change. If they add a third building, those values may be different, but your fractional ownership doesn’t not change. You still have the same ownership you did for buildings one and two. There is no trading power in Club Wyndham. That’s RCI you are thinking of and I cannot say if they change trading power. I’ve never seen it happen with our weeks.

You are making broad statements on what HOAs can and cannot do, or what they will or will not do. Each HOA has its own bylaws. When there are certain changes made, they have rules they have to follow in the bylaws. Some are more restrictive then others. You cannot say that no one person has any say unless you know the bylaws of every single Wyndham resort.

You’re right that “they” can set the budget, but “They” are the resort and NOT Wyndham. Wyndham does not set the maintenance fees of the resort. They cannot tell the resorts what to charge. The HOA’s decide the budget and what they will charge. Wyndham cannot dictate what they charge. You’re are claiming they have more control then they actually do. Wyndham can only control their fees, which in the case of your monthly payment, is the program fee.