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Wyndham Commercial Use Prohibition

RFen8344!

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I assume others have received a notice from Wyndham concerning a cease and desist letter about Commercial Use of our points. First of all, I can only assume what that means but was wondering if others might be able to shed some light on this. My take is renting points to solely make money vs renting points to offset maintenance fees. So that being said, here's my take...

First of all, I'm an owner and should be able to use my points however I see fit. My wife and I are now snowbirds so we travel extensively using Wyndham. We also provide vacations for friends and famiily, but we always have a goodly number of points leftover so my take is to use those excess points as rentals to help defer maintenance fees.

Secondly, Wyndham seems hypocritical in that they have their own department, Extra Holidays, to accomplish what I want even though I have found other companies to be more profitable in putting money back in my pocket.

Thirdly, if Wyndham is so concerned about having units available to owners use only, then they need to stop setting units aside as incentives for potential owners.

Am I completely off-base here folks? Any suggestions on how to proceed???
 

CO skier

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Am I completely off-base here folks? Any suggestions on how to proceed???
Your questions and many other such related points have been discussed in the Wyndham forum for years and years. Following is the most succinct post on the subject that I have seen posted, and it is absolutely true:

... Wyndham owns the system, Wyndham makes the rules, and we're all playing on Wyndham's field in Wyndham's game. ... despite any outrage we can muster, there's really nothing anyone can do about it here on TUG or anywhere else, short of filing lawsuits to fight back.

 

chapjim

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I assume others have received a notice from Wyndham concerning a cease and desist letter about Commercial Use of our points. First of all, I can only assume what that means but was wondering if others might be able to shed some light on this. My take is renting points to solely make money vs renting points to offset maintenance fees. So that being said, here's my take...

First of all, I'm an owner and should be able to use my points however I see fit. My wife and I are now snowbirds so we travel extensively using Wyndham. We also provide vacations for friends and famiily, but we always have a goodly number of points leftover so my take is to use those excess points as rentals to help defer maintenance fees.

Secondly, Wyndham seems hypocritical in that they have their own department, Extra Holidays, to accomplish what I want even though I have found other companies to be more profitable in putting money back in my pocket.

Thirdly, if Wyndham is so concerned about having units available to owners use only, then they need to stop setting units aside as incentives for potential owners.

Am I completely off-base here folks? Any suggestions on how to proceed???
You're not completely off base but extremely late in joining the party! There are scores of threads about this subject in the Wyndham forum, going back several years. (I got my "letter" in October of 2021 and the topic had been discussed at length before that.)

One misconception -- renting points to offset maintenance fees and renting points to make money are the same thing. You make money, you spend it where you choose. In Wyndham's view, it's all the same.

Wyndham owns the bus and Wyndham drives the bus. You can hop on or not. Wyndham doesn't care. What Wyndham cares about is selling contracts.
 

Fido Chuckwagon

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I assume others have received a notice from Wyndham concerning a cease and desist letter about Commercial Use of our points. First of all, I can only assume what that means but was wondering if others might be able to shed some light on this. My take is renting points to solely make money vs renting points to offset maintenance fees. So that being said, here's my take...

First of all, I'm an owner and should be able to use my points however I see fit. My wife and I are now snowbirds so we travel extensively using Wyndham. We also provide vacations for friends and famiily, but we always have a goodly number of points leftover so my take is to use those excess points as rentals to help defer maintenance fees.

Secondly, Wyndham seems hypocritical in that they have their own department, Extra Holidays, to accomplish what I want even though I have found other companies to be more profitable in putting money back in my pocket.

Thirdly, if Wyndham is so concerned about having units available to owners use only, then they need to stop setting units aside as incentives for potential owners.

Am I completely off-base here folks? Any suggestions on how to proceed???
Proceed with extreme caution if you don’t want to get your Wyndham account locked based on the experience of others who have posted about this.
 

bnoble

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Any suggestions on how to proceed???
As mentioned, you are not the first to pass this way, nor will you be the last. Once you are in the crosshairs, it is best to tread very carefully, because Wyndham has tended to shoot first and ask questions later, except that they don't bother with the question asking part. If you find yourself in disagreement with Wyndham over the interpretation of the program rules, the burden will be on you to prove that you are correct and based on everything I have read from owners who've been down this road, you are unlikely to meet that burden.

In short, I think Jim is completely correct: your choices are (a) play by Wyndham's rules, (b) take them to court and be prepared for a long expensive fight, or (c) get out.
 

RENTER

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I assume others have received a notice from Wyndham concerning a cease and desist letter about Commercial Use of our points. First of all, I can only assume what that means but was wondering if others might be able to shed some light on this. My take is renting points to solely make money vs renting points to offset maintenance fees. So that being said, here's my take...

First of all, I'm an owner and should be able to use my points however I see fit. My wife and I are now snowbirds so we travel extensively using Wyndham. We also provide vacations for friends and famiily, but we always have a goodly number of points leftover so my take is to use those excess points as rentals to help defer maintenance fees.

Secondly, Wyndham seems hypocritical in that they have their own department, Extra Holidays, to accomplish what I want even though I have found other companies to be more profitable in putting money back in my pocket.

Thirdly, if Wyndham is so concerned about having units available to owners use only, then they need to stop setting units aside as incentives for potential owners.

Am I completely off-base here folks? Any suggestions on how to proceed???
Rent on the Airbnb platform and join the partnership Wyndham has with Airbnb. It is not a big deal. Your Airbnb posting has to include what Wyndham wants which it should already have. I did not have to make changes to any of mine. It has been almost 2 years since I agreed to their partnership with no problems.

Then you submit it for approval from Wyndham and it takes several days. Airbnb will charge you 3% when they pay you several days after the renter checks in.

Wyndham will know who you are which may help you avoid the commercial operation tag.

It has been almost 3 years since many received those letters. Many called Wyndham to object and explained they were not a commercial operation and were just renting to cover their costs like Wyndham sales agents told them they could. They are still renting today.

It may be wishful thinking on my part but I am assuming that the computer labeled them a commercial operation and contesting it to a real person had them relabeled to owner renting their points.
 

chapjim

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Rent on the Airbnb platform and join the partnership Wyndham has with Airbnb. It is not a big deal. Your Airbnb posting has to include what Wyndham wants which it should already have. I did not have to make changes to any of mine. It has been almost 2 years since I agreed to their partnership with no problems.

Then you submit it for approval from Wyndham and it takes several days. Airbnb will charge you 3% when they pay you several days after the renter checks in.

Wyndham will know who you are which may help you avoid the commercial operation tag.

It has been almost 3 years since many received those letters. Many called Wyndham to object and explained they were not a commercial operation and were just renting to cover their costs like Wyndham sales agents told them they could. They are still renting today.

It may be wishful thinking on my part but I am assuming that the computer labeled them a commercial operation and contesting it to a real person had them relabeled to owner renting their points.

I may be dense but what might be the difference? When and how, and using what metric, do owners renting their points become commercial operations? Are "commercial use" (Wyndham's term) and "commercial operation" (your term) the same thing? If not, how do they differ?

I was told that commercial use had been identified in my account but in its simplest terms, I was just renting points (reservations).
 

Fido Chuckwagon

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Rent on the Airbnb platform and join the partnership Wyndham has with Airbnb
I again would urge extreme caution in doing something like this right after receiving the commercial use warning letter.
 

jp10558

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I don't know if it's true - one problem is Wyndham is intentionally vague here for some reason - but I've been told that if you check in yourself at least 1/2 the reservations you make, you're likely to be left alone. That said, this was in reference to someone who has NOT gotten a commercial use letter. I think the best suggestion is to use what you own, and try and sell or give away what you can't use.
 

RENTER

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I may be dense but what might be the difference? When and how, and using what metric, do owners renting their points become commercial operations? Are "commercial use" (Wyndham's term) and "commercial operation" (your term) the same thing? If not, how do they differ?

I was told that commercial use had been identified in my account but in its simplest terms, I was just renting points (reservations).
I do not know the answer. All I know is many who contested those letters are still renting and the following year Wyndham allowed them to rent on Airbnb.

All I can do is assume that the computer thought they were a commercial operation like a travel agency and when they contested the letter as individual owners they were allowed to continue to rent.
 

chapjim

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I do not know the answer. All I know is many who contested those letters are still renting and the following year Wyndham allowed them to rent on Airbnb.

All I can do is assume that the computer thought they were a commercial operation like a travel agency and when they contested the letter as individual owners they were allowed to continue to rent.
Okay.

Except in my case, I would have been a pitiful, little travel agency with hardly enough volume to pay utilities. Didn't matter.
 

VacaDave

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New to Wyndham Ownership (400K-500Kpts) Would you mind if I ask how many points it takes to trip their trigger for the naughty letter, or percent of points owned vs points not personally used last year?
Just learning this game now..

Thanks,
Dave P
 

RENTER

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New to Wyndham Ownership (400K-500Kpts) Would you mind if I ask how many points it takes to trip their trigger for the naughty letter, or percent of points owned vs points not personally used last year?
Just learning this game now..

Thanks,
Dave P
Sadly no one knows the rules. But it seems those who were not using their points for themselves because of medical issues or other issues are having problems
 

Snippy

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Sharing info I posted in Nov 2022. Interesting that @RENTER has NOT received the "commercial" letter, when others with fewer guest cert use have.
1715835648287.png
 

Fido Chuckwagon

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New to Wyndham Ownership (400K-500Kpts) Would you mind if I ask how many points it takes to trip their trigger for the naughty letter, or percent of points owned vs points not personally used last year?
Just learning this game now..

Thanks,
Dave P
Nobody knows the answer to this. Renting with Wyndham continues to be risky, both as an owner and as a renter (where the possibility of cancelled reservations after Wyndham locks the owners account still exists).
 

chapjim

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New to Wyndham Ownership (400K-500Kpts) Would you mind if I ask how many points it takes to trip their trigger for the naughty letter, or percent of points owned vs points not personally used last year?
Just learning this game now..

Thanks,
Dave P

It is not the number of points that invites scrutiny. Rather, it is how they are used. Beyond that, is it anyone's guess.
 

55plus

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First of all, I'm an owner and should be able to use my points however I see fit. My wife and I are now snowbirds so we travel extensively using Wyndham. We also provide vacations for friends and famiily, but we always have a goodly number of points leftover so my take is to use those excess points as rentals to help defer maintenance fees.
Since you use your points to snowbird, use them at nicer and higher demand locations. And for longer time-frames. Use your points up yourself so you won't need to rent.
 
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Rent on the Airbnb platform and join the partnership Wyndham has with Airbnb. It is not a big deal. Your Airbnb posting has to include what Wyndham wants which it should already have. I did not have to make changes to any of mine. It has been almost 2 years since I agreed to their partnership with no problems.

Then you submit it for approval from Wyndham and it takes several days. Airbnb will charge you 3% when they pay you several days after the renter checks in.

How exactly would one "join the partnership Wyndham has with Airbnb"? Is there a website that explains how to do this?

And as for "submitting it for approval from Wyndham" is there a special number to call?

Definitely curious about the process in case I ever need to rent (hopefully in a way that avoids Wyndham's ire) but wondering how to actually initiate it.
 

HitchHiker71

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I do not know the answer. All I know is many who contested those letters are still renting and the following year Wyndham allowed them to rent on Airbnb.

All I can do is assume that the computer thought they were a commercial operation like a travel agency and when they contested the letter as individual owners they were allowed to continue to rent.
Respectfully, what you actually likely know is that a small subset of owners that rent that you personally interacted with may still be renting either directly or via AirBnB after receiving a cease and desist letter. No one on here or anywhere else can categorically state facts with respect to this issue, at most we can share anecdotal experiences, which are just that, anecdotal at best. I suspect there's also a proportion of owners who received the cease and desist letters and tried to contest those letters, who were not allowed to continue to rent - I know actual TUG owners who attempted to do exactly as you describe - and were denied future rental capabilities. What are the delineating factors? No one knows, and that's by design I'm sure. I suspect that there's a ratio of some kind involved for these types of decisions. If an owner is renting and has spent over a certain threshold of dollars with Wyndham purchasing developer contracts up to certain VIP levels, like you I'd surmise, then Wyndham may allow rental activities provided this subset of owners plays by the rules - using EH and/or AirBnB. Will this be the case indefinitely? I doubt it - at some point owners like you will likely again receive cease and desist letters for rental activities. How far into the future? Who knows, could be next year could be five years from now when Wyndham decides to go on another rental curbing blitz. It's really anyone's guess.
 

RENTER

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How exactly would one "join the partnership Wyndham has with Airbnb"? Is there a website that explains how to do this?

And as for "submitting it for approval from Wyndham" is there a special number to call?

Definitely curious about the process in case I ever need to rent (hopefully in a way that avoids Wyndham's ire) but wondering how to actually initiate it.
1. Set up your account at Air
2. Make a posting for the resort where you want to rent
3. Make your Wyndham reservations
4. Post on the Air calendar
5. Air will then tell you that you have to agree to Wyndham's rules and make any changes Wyndham requires to your posting
6 Submit it to Wyndham
7. It may be rejected and you are told you have to provide the reservation to Wyndham to confirm you do have a reservation They will tell you to send a email with the info. I am not 100% right on the email but it is something like Airbnb@Wynn but they will tell you

When you put the address of the resort in your posting that is how Air knows you are renting at Wyndham

You agree for Airbnb to share your info to Wyndham

The agreement is a standard Air agreement has with hotels and apartment buildings. It will say that they can ask for a portion of your rent. But I have been doing this for 2 years and I have had no requests like that.
 

Fido Chuckwagon

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at some point owners like you will likely again receive cease and desist letters for rental activities. How far into the future? Who knows, could be next year could be five years from now when Wyndham decides to go on another rental curbing blitz. It's really anyone's guess.
Yup. And this is why renting continues to be a dangerous game with Wyndham, especially after getting a target letter.
 

RENTER

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Respectfully, what you actually likely know is that a small subset of owners that rent that you personally interacted with may still be renting either directly or via AirBnB after receiving a cease and desist letter. No one on here or anywhere else can categorically state facts with respect to this issue, at most we can share anecdotal experiences, which are just that, anecdotal at best. I suspect there's also a proportion of owners who received the cease and desist letters and tried to contest those letters, who were not allowed to continue to rent - I know actual TUG owners who attempted to do exactly as you describe - and were denied future rental capabilities. What are the delineating factors? No one knows, and that's by design I'm sure. I suspect that there's a ratio of some kind involved for these types of decisions. If an owner is renting and has spent over a certain threshold of dollars with Wyndham purchasing developer contracts up to certain VIP levels, like you I'd surmise, then Wyndham may allow rental activities provided this subset of owners plays by the rules - using EH and/or AirBnB. Will this be the case indefinitely? I doubt it - at some point owners like you will likely again receive cease and desist letters for rental activities. How far into the future? Who knows, could be next year could be five years from now when Wyndham decides to go on another rental curbing blitz. It's really anyone's guess.
and when that day comes, that is the day I walk away. I am not a slave to my credit score. But for the past 3 years I have been able to cover my maintenance fees. When that day comes, that is when I rent from other owners
 

HitchHiker71

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and when that day comes, that is the day I walk away. I am not a slave to my credit score. But for the past 3 years I have been able to cover my maintenance fees. When that day comes, that is when I rent from other owners
Agreed. I know I posted about this recently in another thread - my recommendation to build on a F&F type system whereby Wyndham would actually formalize rental capabilities for all owners by allowing owners to create subaccounts for rental activities - up to a certain percentage of points or whatever - to eliminate the mystery - and that subaccount could then be used to rent via approved mechanisms like EH/AirBnB/eBay/etc. This would permit points managers to have direct access to the subset of points via the child accounts - via RBAC. I've outlined this approach several times to Wyndham over the past several years and it's always fallen on deaf ears. I've even proposed - make this a VIP only program - if Wyndham wants people to spend tens of thousands of dollars upgrading to VIP levels - formalize a rental capability like this directly into the website. Tier it even, VIPS can only rent 25% of their point base, VIPG 35%, VIPP 50%, VIPF up to 60%. Something like that. Whatever works to meet Wyndhams hidden rules. Make it an open playing field. Many other rules could be implemented - such as the number of GCs/RTs/HKCs assigned to the child rental account - no resale bucket rentals allowed - just a few examples. I know many would say this would be overly complicated given Wyndham's struggles maintaining the website for simple owner based transactions, and I would agree, but I'd prefer an open playing field with open rules/regs for all to know and see.
 

Silverdollar

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I assume others have received a notice from Wyndham concerning a cease and desist letter about Commercial Use of our points. First of all, I can only assume what that means but was wondering if others might be able to shed some light on this. My take is renting points to solely make money vs renting points to offset maintenance fees. So that being said, here's my take...

First of all, I'm an owner and should be able to use my points however I see fit. My wife and I are now snowbirds so we travel extensively using Wyndham. We also provide vacations for friends and famiily, but we always have a goodly number of points leftover so my take is to use those excess points as rentals to help defer maintenance fees.

Secondly, Wyndham seems hypocritical in that they have their own department, Extra Holidays, to accomplish what I want even though I have found other companies to be more profitable in putting money back in my pocket.

Thirdly, if Wyndham is so concerned about having units available to owners use only, then they need to stop setting units aside as incentives for potential owners.

Am I completely off-base here folks? Any suggestions on how to proceed???
Last year, I wrote Wyndham Corporate to ask for clarity on the issue of an owner renting their timeshare to help offset maintenance costs. I received the following answer in writing from an Owner Resolutions & Strategy Executive Case Specialist:

“The only rental option we permit owners to utilize when it comes to rental is the option provided through Extra Holidays directly. Within the terms and conditions associated with any Club Wyndham contract- it discloses that purchases are to be for personal use and not rental by owner for a profit. If an owner is caught renting outside of Extra Holidays, their account can be flagged for commercial use.”
 
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