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Would you retro NOW?

CPNY

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I can't speculate on what will happen with MVC, but I'm a firm believer that you should buy where you would want to go. In the end if the program gets demolished you will at least have home resort usage. I think they will offer something to bring SVN owners into the MVC sphere as it only makes good business sense.

There is a difference in the true-plat and the 1-52 weeks. Originally I believe the resort was being sold as 1-52 usage. When Starwood took it over they started selling it as seasons with plat being weeks 1-21, 50-52. From what I have heard there is not much difference in what can be seen in II for trades (some reports on TUG of plats being a bit better). There will be a huge difference if you are wanting to book a spring training week as there is much less competition for those weeks within the plat pool as opposed to the full year pool.

One caution if you are looking at listings advertised as plat - be sure to verify the unit number as the platinum designation depends on both the week on the deed and the unit number (there is a thread somewhere here on TUG that lists the unit numbers - I'm just too lazy right now to find it o_O).
Awesome thanks! I found a broker who explained the same thing you did but If I’m serious I’ll dig around for that thread. I’d prob never go back, I’d just it as a trader. So maybe you’re right. Get a cheaper maint fee unit or just stick with what I have and see how it works for me before adding more on. I’m also a believer in buying where you want to go. The only problem for me is that buying where I really want to go has the highest maint fee of any timeshare in the universe it seems. Atlantis resort is too high. I have to get rid of it, which led me on the buy more mandatory deeds and book back into that resort.
 

Ken555

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while I agree with the WKV vs retro SDO or WLR calculation, I have to make 2 additional comments.

1) In all my long term projections, in 10-15 years the resale value of ALL my timeshares (even those I paid thousands of dollars resale for) is ZERO . The prices have continued to come down in the last 10 years and I do not see why that trend would not continue. If these are the current resale prices after 9 years of economic growth, one can imagine the prices in so so times or worse

When I bought my WKV week I also considered that the value would be zero at 10 years. That was a fairly common theme on TUG back then and very few of us at the time thought the weeks would be worth close to the purchase price. On the other hand, IIRC very few would suggest that WKORV (which at the time was ~$35k for annual OV resale) would be ~$10-12k in 15 years.

I paid $20,500 for my WKV Platinum in September 2005. At the time it was a very good price, though not exceptional (it was akin to the ~$14-15k price today, not the rare yet always mentioned and hoped for $10-12k price). So in 14 years, the value has reduced about $5500-6500, or about 29%. During that time we went through both economic growth and worse. Assuming it loses another ~30% in the next 14 years, then a value of ~$14k would be $9800. Based on this I find it very difficult indeed to agree that it will be valued at zero in 10 years. We are no longer shooting in the dark as we once were...we have historical perspective to help balance our opinion. So, while it may be smart to still consider any timeshare worth zero the moment after purchase and intend to use it for 10+ years to redeem your value, the reality seems to favor that good timeshares will retain value.

2) As I mentioned before, we have decided not to retro. At the same time, having a "legit" part of the portfolio brings some stability in case:
a) the anticipated overlay will diminish significantly the inventory in SVN and/or in II and the mandatory
b) the Vistana owners will only be allowed to participate in an overlay if they are either elite owners or if they have bought from the developer.

I understand that a) and b) are hypothetical, but so the presumption that WKV will have a retail value in 10-15 years anywhere close to where it is today. If that comparison (WKV vs retro SDO or WLR) may be true for the next 2-3 years, I cannot put too much weight on it in the long run.

It sounds like you're convincing yourself to buy conservatively, which I think is smart. Telling yourself the weeks you own are worthless is a great way to find solutions to using what you own, and if it has any value at all in 10 years you'll be happy.

Of course, I think you're overly pessimistic about the eventual value of the weeks (depending on resort). Just remember that there are a lot of timeshares out there, and they also trade in II for VSN/Marriott. I highly doubt that II will suddenly dry up with VSN/Marriott weeks for others to reserve, so even if the worst happens and the VSN club is killed and we only own the resort itself with trading in II (this assumes no overlay), then I think we will *still* be able to trade to nice resorts. And this won't happen.
 

Ken555

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I’d prob never go back, I’d just it as a trader.

My SDO weeks are 1-52, and they trade great. I have always traded them as 1-bed units and have exchanged to:

WKORV 1-bed
WKORV-N 1-bed
2x Nanea 2-bed
Marriott Custom House 1-bed
Marriott Grand Chateau 2-bed
Kona Coast Resort II 2-bed
2x Four Seasons Aviara 2-bed
Club Intrawest (Embarc) Whistler 2-bed
Grand Timber Lodge 2-bed

They trade as well as the two weeks I previously owned at SVR (2-bed Falls), which was why I gave those away and bought SDO instead:

2x Harborside 2-bed (those were the days, too bad they're not available via II any longer...we had three total units and 13 people there for a family reunion which would not have happened without my timeshare weeks)
2x WKORV-N 1-bed
2x WKORV-N 2-bed
WKORV 1-bed
WKORV 2-bed
WPORV 2-bed
Marriott Timber Lodge 2-bed
Club Intrawest (Embarc) Palm Desert 2-bed

And before that I had WMH and traded it via II for similarly good resorts.

Over the years availability has changed, but there seems to always be something available for me. The biggest change has been frequency of bulk banks, the lack of 2-bed units when once they were more common, and the II fee to upgrade to 2-beds.

Specifically, owning SDO with the intention to trade via II still makes sense (to me). For instance, my 2020 Westin Nanea 2-bed week which I obtained with an EOY SDO 1-bed after all exchange and upgrade II fees (does not include the annual membership fee) is $112.41 per night or $786.87 for the full week. I think that's quite good, especially considering that was a free week (and I only paid $200 for my annual SDO 2-bed, not counting closing and transfer fees). I think it's hard to go wrong with a SDO week as long as your travel schedule is flexible and you are open to visiting different resorts and locations.

Further info... my II trades, ACs, XYZ (err...2-for-1) and my two SFX trades total 45 weeks (315 nights) for an average $87.69 per night or $613.83 per week after all exchange fees (but does not include annual membership fees). In general, I've been a very happy II customer.

Note: I have never deposited my WKV week in II.
 

DannyTS

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When I bought my WKV week I also considered that the value would be zero at 10 years. That was a fairly common theme on TUG back then and very few of us at the time thought the weeks would be worth close to the purchase price. On the other hand, IIRC very few would suggest that WKORV (which at the time was ~$35k for annual OV resale) would be ~$10-12k in 15 years.

I paid $20,500 for my WKV Platinum in September 2005. At the time it was a very good price, though not exceptional (it was akin to the ~$14-15k price today, not the rare yet always mentioned and hoped for $10-12k price). So in 14 years, the value has reduced about $5500-6500, or about 29%. During that time we went through both economic growth and worse. Assuming it loses another ~30% in the next 14 years, then a value of ~$14k would be $9800. Based on this I find it very difficult indeed to agree that it will be valued at zero in 10 years. We are no longer shooting in the dark as we once were...we have historical perspective to help balance our opinion. So, while it may be smart to still consider any timeshare worth zero the moment after purchase and intend to use it for 10+ years to redeem your value, the reality seems to favor that good timeshares will retain value.

Based on the inflation calculator, the price you paid is worth today almost 27,000 dollars so the loss is actually 50% in real terms and is actually higher than the 10k the retro costs today. We did see reports of WKV selling at around 12k and then the loss would be even more. Some believe though the inflation is understated, If you are in that camp, your real loss might have been around 66% if not more. What has the hotel cost inflation been during the last 14 years?

upload_2019-8-4_14-12-28.png
 
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Ken555

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Based on the inflation calculator, the price you paid is worth today almost 27,000 dollars so the loss is actually 50% in real terms and is actually higher than the 10k the retro costs today. We did see reports of WKV selling at around 12k and then the loss would be even more. Some believe though the inflation is understated, If you are in that camp, your real loss might have been around 66% if not more. What has the hotel cost inflation been during the last 14 years?

View attachment 13230

There are many ways to consider timeshare costs, and we are expert at rationalizing purchases...

The most important question for me 14 years ago was to predict my ability to travel annually as much as I desired without having a timeshare, and that answer dictated my purchase. I really don’t care what the real value of the money I paid for WKV would have been worth today since it’s not a pure monetary transaction.

I’m also one of those who simply refuses to pay excessive amounts for hotel nights. That’s why I’m a huge fan of timeshares and hotel point programs (assuming the cost of acquiring the points is reasonable).

Of course, I keep considering to dollar cost average my timeshare ownership and just buy another WKV week...


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jabberwocky

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Awesome thanks! I found a broker who explained the same thing you did but If I’m serious I’ll dig around for that thread. I’d prob never go back, I’d just it as a trader. So maybe you’re right. Get a cheaper maint fee unit or just stick with what I have and see how it works for me before adding more on. I’m also a believer in buying where you want to go. The only problem for me is that buying where I really want to go has the highest maint fee of any timeshare in the universe it seems. Atlantis resort is too high. I have to get rid of it, which led me on the buy more mandatory deeds and book back into that resort.

In your case then if you are wanting SDO just as a trader then I wouldn't worry about the distinction between 1-52 and plat units. I don't think the difference in trading power is that much to warrant the extra time, effort and cost. You should be able to pick up a 2BR annual SDO for free or pretty close to it with closing costs under $200. Downside is minimal - if you ever decide to get rid of it you can just give it away.
 

DannyTS

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The most important question for me 14 years ago was to predict my ability to travel annually as much as I desired without having a timeshare, and that answer dictated my purchase. I really don’t care what the real value of the money I paid for WKV would have been worth today since it’s not a pure monetary transaction.

I’m also one of those who simply refuses to pay excessive amounts for hotel nights. That’s why I’m a huge fan of timeshares and hotel point programs (assuming the cost of acquiring the points is reasonable).


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I was absolutely not questioning your decision to buy 14 years ago. My only regret about TS is that I only dipped into them recently. I was just comparing the options now.
 

Ken555

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I was absolutely not questioning your decision to buy 14 years ago. My only regret about TS is that I only dipped into them recently. I was just comparing the options now.

Yes, comparing current options is the only way to consider whether or not to purchase. Still, historical trends may influence your opinion (or not) as to its future worth (or lack thereof). It was with that in mind that I commented.


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DavidnRobin

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My experience is similar to Ken’s in some ways.
I bought 2 WKV P+ resale weeks (81K SO) prior to 2009 after already buying resale WKORV OFD and resale WSJ-VGV - knowing that I couldn’t use the WKV weeks as I lacked the vacation time at work.
Over these years, I have only used a few of these intervals to stay at WKV (great resort) or as SO exchanges (WKORV) - the remaining intervals were rented easily covering any losses or upfront cost. Now, we have inexpensive SOs to use within VSN, or stay at WKV, or rent. It has been the best overall VSE Resort from an economical aspect. Even if VSN goes away (no time soon...) - still a great Resort to use, or rent to easily cover MFs.

All of my resales have lost a good percentage of their original resale value since 2009 for a few reasons. But, I own where I like to go, and bought with disposable income (as they should always be) — so it is the future costs that matter. I am getting great usage from all of them - as everyone should strive for once in the TS game.
 

controller1

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But, I own where I like to go, and bought with disposable income (as they should always be) — so it is the future costs that matter. I am getting great usage from all of them - as everyone should strive for once in the TS game.

For me, this is what matters! Agree with you 100%.
 

CPNY

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My SDO weeks are 1-52, and they trade great. I have always traded them as 1-bed units and have exchanged to:

WKORV 1-bed
WKORV-N 1-bed
2x Nanea 2-bed
Marriott Custom House 1-bed
Marriott Grand Chateau 2-bed
Kona Coast Resort II 2-bed
2x Four Seasons Aviara 2-bed
Club Intrawest (Embarc) Whistler 2-bed
Grand Timber Lodge 2-bed

They trade as well as the two weeks I previously owned at SVR (2-bed Falls), which was why I gave those away and bought SDO instead:

2x Harborside 2-bed (those were the days, too bad they're not available via II any longer...we had three total units and 13 people there for a family reunion which would not have happened without my timeshare weeks)
2x WKORV-N 1-bed
2x WKORV-N 2-bed
WKORV 1-bed
WKORV 2-bed
WPORV 2-bed
Marriott Timber Lodge 2-bed
Club Intrawest (Embarc) Palm Desert 2-bed

And before that I had WMH and traded it via II for similarly good resorts.

Over the years availability has changed, but there seems to always be something available for me. The biggest change has been frequency of bulk banks, the lack of 2-bed units when once they were more common, and the II fee to upgrade to 2-beds.

Specifically, owning SDO with the intention to trade via II still makes sense (to me). For instance, my 2020 Westin Nanea 2-bed week which I obtained with an EOY SDO 1-bed after all exchange and upgrade II fees (does not include the annual membership fee) is $112.41 per night or $786.87 for the full week. I think that's quite good, especially considering that was a free week (and I only paid $200 for my annual SDO 2-bed, not counting closing and transfer fees). I think it's hard to go wrong with a SDO week as long as your travel schedule is flexible and you are open to visiting different resorts and locations.

Further info... my II trades, ACs, XYZ (err...2-for-1) and my two SFX trades total 45 weeks (315 nights) for an average $87.69 per night or $613.83 per week after all exchange fees (but does not include annual membership fees). In general, I've been a very happy II customer.

Note: I have never deposited my WKV week in II.
That sheds a bright light on what I’m trying to have as an alternative. My sister in law asked me today if I can get Aruba MVC with my timeshare. Right away I thought of an II trade. I’m sure an SDO would get me better trades than a SVV but why waste the SO weeks? So thank you for breaking it down for me on what I can expect to trade for.

So the 1-52 weeks would be a good option if I had no intention of ever bringing back into the VSN correct? I assume they aren’t worth 148K SO. Also, how come no more HRA in II?

I’ve never exchanged or deposited into II. say I pick up an EOY SDO 1 bedroom, I’d have two years to use the deposit? I guess the question is, 1 bedroom vs 2
 
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pchung6

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Yes SDO should have better trade power than SVV for the same room type. I don't think it matters much between SDO 1-52 and Platinum week. If you are looking for an II trader, SDO has been widely used by tuggers and can be bought cheap. For whatever reason, I don't see any HRA in II in last 2 years or so, I think HRA is no longer available on II now just like WSJ.
 

CPNY

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Yes SDO should have better trade power than SVV for the same room type. I don't think it matters much between SDO 1-52 and Platinum week. If you are looking for an II trader, SDO has been widely used by tuggers and can be bought cheap. For whatever reason, I don't see any HRA in II in last 2 years or so, I think HRA is no longer available on II now just like WSJ.
Hmm. Interesting. I wonder if vistana/MVC is holding back inventory for some reason? I know the aren’t selling HRA at all. It seems like they don’t want to touch the weeks at all. Maybe they will remove those resorts from the VSN and throw them into the DC? I wonder if they could even do that. I’ll miss my HRA ownership, but I will not miss those ridiculous Maint Fees.

If I do the SDO, It will most likely be an EOY since I have enough mandatory annuals. Just not sure if a 1 or 2 bedroom is better for me.
 

pchung6

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If I do the SDO, It will most likely be an EOY since I have enough mandatory annuals. Just not sure if a 1 or 2 bedroom is better for me.

Don't forget you will need another separated II account for involuntary resort, that's additional $99/year. Or if you don't want another II account, you can buy a small 1br WKV gold plus season instead, it is just harder to find than SDO and will cost you $1000.
 

jabberwocky

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So the 1-52 weeks would be a good option if I had no intention of ever bringing back into the VSN correct? I assume they aren’t worth 148K SO.

Correct. I believe the 2BR 1-52 will only give you 81,000 Staroptions. You need a plat for the 148k
 

Ken555

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That sheds a bright light on what I’m trying to have as an alternative.

Glad it was helpful.

My sister in law asked me today if I can get Aruba MVC with my timeshare. Right away I thought of an II trade.

I believe it’s currently available on II for a 1-bed SDO, but without looking not sure when and size of unit.

I’m sure an SDO would get me better trades than a SVV but why waste the SO weeks? So thank you for breaking it down for me on what I can expect to trade for.

I believe SDO is the most efficient voluntary week, but there may be a couple others that are similar.

So the 1-52 weeks would be a good option if I had no intention of ever bringing back into the VSN correct? I assume they aren’t worth 148K SO.

Yes, the 1-52 weeks are worth 81k. Only the true plat are worth 148k. The 1-52 weeks are those that were sold pre-Starwood.

Also, how come no more HRA in II?

It was always rare, but they would deposit some now and then. In the last few years there’s been very little to none. Past performance is not indicative of future blah blah blah, so who knows.

I’ve never exchanged or deposited into II. say I pick up an EOY SDO 1 bedroom, I’d have two years to use the deposit? I guess the question is, 1 bedroom vs 2

Yes. The 2-bed is better, I think, from a pure MF perspective, but otherwise if you can get a small 1-bed (which trades virtually identically to the large 1-bed) that would be a good option.


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jabberwocky

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Don't forget you will need another separated II account for involuntary resort, that's additional $99/year. Or if you don't want another II account, you can buy a small 1br WKV gold plus season instead, it is just harder to find than SDO and will cost you $1000.

This is a good point. It is made even worse by the fact that your membership in II has to also cover the date of the exchange request. So if you are doing +2 years out you may have to pay for three years of membership - depending on your timing.

That said - they did give me 2 years free II membership with my SDO hoping I would try and renew.
 

Ken555

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This is a good point. It is made even worse by the fact that your membership in II has to also cover the date of the exchange request. So if you are doing +2 years out you may have to pay for three years of membership - depending on your timing.

That said - they did give me 2 years free II membership with my SDO hoping I would try and renew.

I got a deal on a five year renewal last time, but don’t recall exactly what I paid. I also paid for platinum, which is nice to have for the free guest certificates, $59 2-bed upgrade (vs $99), and lower getaway weeks.


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jabberwocky

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If I do the SDO, It will most likely be an EOY since I have enough mandatory annuals. Just not sure if a 1 or 2 bedroom is better for me.

Some considerations:

1) MF for two 1BR SDO EOY > one 2BR SDO EOY
2) 2BR can be locked off for two 1BR deposits in II.
3) My impression is that the 2BR are easier to get rid of when the time comes.
 

jabberwocky

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I got a deal on a five year renewal last time, but don’t recall exactly what I paid. I also paid for platinum, which is nice to have for the free guest certificates, $59 2-bed upgrade (vs $99), and lower getaway weeks.


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I think the five year deal I was offered was equal to getting around 1.5 years free. I unfortunately don’t have enough free time and retirement is still at least 2-3 decades away so our use of getaways has been infrequent and unlikely to change in the future. :(:(
 

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Don't forget you will need another separated II account for involuntary resort, that's additional $99/year. Or if you don't want another II account, you can buy a small 1br WKV gold plus season instead, it is just harder to find than SDO and will cost you $1000.
Oh I thought it would go into the II acct I already have. Didn’t factor that cost in. Plus the exchange fee
 

CPNY

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I got a deal on a five year renewal last time, but don’t recall exactly what I paid. I also paid for platinum, which is nice to have for the free guest certificates, $59 2-bed upgrade (vs $99), and lower getaway weeks.


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You’ve been so helpful. It’s very much appreciated. I’ve never thought about a platinum membership but if I pick up the SDO I think that plat membership would be the way to go. I’ve already bought two getaways this year and paid 69 for guest certificates since I’m traveling mid week and meeting family.
 

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You’ve been so helpful. It’s very much appreciated. I’ve never thought about a platinum membership but if I pick up the SDO I think that plat membership would be the way to go. I’ve already bought two getaways this year and paid 69 for guest certificates since I’m traveling mid week and meeting family.
When I opened the Interval account with my voluntary weeks I was offered 10 years for 380 USD, a great deal that I took. I was also offered a platinum discounted membership which i sadly declined. I eventually paid the full price for it, I think it is 129 dollars per year. During the last year I only saved about 50$ for a getaway and 40$ for an upgrade fee (paid $59 instead of $99) so I did not break even actually. Unless you do a big size upgrade (say from a studio to a 3-4 bdr) or if you do several exchanges and getaways, platinum is not really worth it IMO
 

SteelerGal

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@CPNY I would definitely go the SDO 2bdrm. 1-52. We have 3wks there however only 1 is a 2bdrm EOY. You can easily separate into 2. You can rent one or both sides or exchange. SDO exchanges in RCI and II as well.
This is a bread and butter resort for MVC, so I highly doubt MVC would allow it to leave the Vistana Family.
 

CPNY

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@CPNY I would definitely go the SDO 2bdrm. 1-52. We have 3wks there however only 1 is a 2bdrm EOY. You can easily separate into 2. You can rent one or both sides or exchange. SDO exchanges in RCI and II as well.
This is a bread and butter resort for MVC, so I highly doubt MVC would allow it to leave the Vistana Family.
Thanks. I’m guessing an EOY would be good enough. I could always split and deposit and essentially have a 1 bedroom every year With less maint fee than a one bedroom. I didn’t even think of that, I’m sure I could turn that into MVC units like Aruba. Thanks! I think I’m going to do it!
 
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