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Woman says Bally's casino in New Jersey refuses to pay 7-figure jackpot

DrQ

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Woman says Bally's casino in New Jersey refuses to pay 7-figure jackpot​


This also happened at a casino in Oklahoma, but the lawsuit was stopped cold when the matter was referred back to tribal law for resolution where it died and the gambler was trespassed.
 
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ScoopKona

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I don't gamble. But every time I walk through a casino floor to get to the restaurant I want to try, I notice the signs on each and every slot machine that reads "malfunction voids all pays and plays."

"I won!"

"No, you didn't." [security dude points at the "voids all" sign.]

"But I won!"

"No, you didn't. Goodbye. Leave now."
 

Talent312

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If they were honest about it...
A greeter would hold out his hand, and say,
"Give me your money now, or waste your
time and give it to me later."
 
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am1

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I don't gamble. But every time I walk through a casino floor to get to the restaurant I want to try, I notice the signs on each and every slot machine that reads "malfunction voids all pays and plays."

"I won!"

"No, you didn't." [security dude points at the "voids all" sign.]

"But I won!"

"No, you didn't. Goodbye. Leave now."
And when it malfunctions the other way how do the customers get refunds? Seems insurance should cover these situations. Ballys should not try to wash their hands of the issue. The player should not be playing brand name slots as the payouts are less. Or slots at all. Back when I did online casinos I wagered hundreds of thousands to release the bonuses and was mind numbingly boring but to each their own. But I guess was good training for refreshing Wyndham availability all day.
 

ScoopKona

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And when it malfunctions the other way how do the customers get refunds? Seems insurance should cover these situations. Ballys should not try to wash their hands of the issue. The player should not be playing brand name slots as the payouts are less. Or slots at all. Back when I did online casinos I wagered hundreds of thousands to release the bonuses and was mind numbingly boring but to each their own. But I guess was good training for refreshing Wyndham availability all day.

The customers went in, saw the sign, didn't pay attention, and then have the nerve to be indignant when the casino says "malfunction."

What did they think was going to happen?

 

am1

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The customers went in, saw the sign, didn't pay attention, and then have the nerve to be indignant when the casino says "malfunction."

What did they think was going to happen?

I would argue the people playing did not have the ability to consent to the sign based on wanting to play slots.
 

ScoopKona

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I would argue the people playing did not have the ability to consent to the sign based on wanting to play slots.

And I would argue that putting money into the casino's machine implies consent to the casinos rules. It's not like people have any pressing need to be in there.
 

am1

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And I would argue that putting money into the casino's machine implies consent to the casinos rules. It's not like people have any pressing need to be in there.
If they had the capacity to consent. Not sure that people putting money into the machines care about signs posted about what happens if a machine malfunctions while a jackpot hits. But a fool and their money is a thing.
 

ScoopKona

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If they had the capacity to consent. Not sure that people putting money into the machines care about signs posted about what happens if a machine malfunctions while a jackpot hits. But a fool and their money is a thing.

Las Vegas is built on "fool and his/her money." There are very few people on the casino floor who aren't fools. Even the employees. I know many.
 

am1

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Las Vegas is built on "fool and his/her money." There are very few people on the casino floor who aren't fools. Even the employees. I know many.
Not just Las Vegas. Almost everywhere, or everywhere. How many places would go under if it was not for fools. Overpriced restaurants, cars, houses, hotels, timeshares to name a few. Where I live I have assets, "low income" but one would think I am poor. Gas prices change every two weeks and I am there filling up before or waiting it out, Mcdonalds has an app for coupons and thats what my kids are eating when we go. If not we would go somewhere else or even better eat at home. Pizza place has 2 for 1 Tuesdays and we only go on that day. I am paying school tution in full at the start of the year for the discount. Using Groupon like website when I can. Side note I use to buy groupon gift cards in Canada to use in the US at par. Only figured that out when my US groupon credit was used at par in Canada which pissed me off. Buyer beware last time I bought they did not work and no one wants to own the issue.

Look at the stuff happening on College campuses as a different example.
 

letsgobobby

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Not just Las Vegas. Almost everywhere, or everywhere. How many places would go under if it was not for fools. Overpriced restaurants, cars, houses, hotels, timeshares to name a few. Where I live I have assets, "low income" but one would think I am poor. Gas prices change every two weeks and I am there filling up before or waiting it out, Mcdonalds has an app for coupons and thats what my kids are eating when we go. If not we would go somewhere else or even better eat at home. Pizza place has 2 for 1 Tuesdays and we only go on that day. I am paying school tution in full at the start of the year for the discount. Using Groupon like website when I can. Side note I use to buy groupon gift cards in Canada to use in the US at par. Only figured that out when my US groupon credit was used at par in Canada which pissed me off. Buyer beware last time I bought they did not work and no one wants to own the issue.

Look at the stuff happening on College campuses as a different example.
well you may think you are clever but if your kids aren't taking out the max student loans and then having the government cancel them a few years later for whatever invented reason they can come up with, then you are the sucker at the table.
 

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The question is not whether it is fair to casino/player that a malfunction voids play. Obviously this is supported by NV law. The question is whether a malfunction occurred and how a player can verify this vs. the casino just not wanting to pay jackpot. In other words, did this lady really get screwed, or did the machine malfunction and she never won in the first place like it appeared?

For those that don't know, almost all of the remaining non-video slots that still have spinning reels are purely run off a computer. The reels don't determine the outcome, they are supposed to reveal them. The computer determines the outcome and tells the reels where they should end up. Being moving parts, the reels can develop a fault/break down, or simply don't do what the computer tells them to do. It may appear that you won, but in fact you didn't. Rarely, if ever, the computer/software makes a mistake. They are highly regulated by gaming officials and the technology is deeply scrutinized.

That being said, these machines collect a lot of (net) money every day, and pay out a lot of million jackpots every day. Why did they decide this lady shouldn't get paid if in fact she actually won? If the machine did in fact "malfunction" you lose, but it is understandable that people that don't understand the technology think they got screwed. When it is a small time operation, one's suspicions of malfeasance may heighten.
 

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well you may think you are clever but if your kids aren't taking out the max student loans and then having the government cancel them a few years later for whatever invented reason they can come up with, then you are the sucker at the table.
Right, because the people that took out the loans did so knowing they would be cancelled later. As if someone who doesn't need a student loan to pay for college is going to use them, losing tuition pre-pay discounts and paying interest charges hoping that they will be cancelled decades later. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Quote of the day: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt."
 
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am1

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well you may think you are clever but if your kids aren't taking out the max student loans and then having the government cancel them a few years later for whatever invented reason they can come up with, then you are the sucker at the table.
Touche.
 

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For those that don't know, almost all of the remaining non-video slots that still have spinning reels are purely run off a computer. The reels don't determine the outcome, they are supposed to reveal them. The computer determines the outcome and tells the reels where they should end up. Being moving parts, the reels can develop a fault/break down, or simply don't do what the computer tells them to do. It may appear that you won, but in fact you didn't. Rarely, if ever, the computer/software makes a mistake. They are highly regulated by gaming officials and the technology is deeply scrutinized.
Seems like at least in an earlier lawsuit about ?the same sort of machine? started in 2000 a court found the reels effectively did determine the outcome and ordered it paid out, and the judgement was upheld in appeals if you believe the linked article.

Personally, I think unless there's proof of the "winner" somehow sabotaging the machine, or collusion with employees to program it incorrectly - then a malfunction ought to be the casino's problem, and they pay as it shows to the player. They can get insurance, or indemnity from the slot machine builder.
 

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Hope she wins in court. These corporate shenanigans will stop at nothing if they can wiggle out of paying out.
 

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Right, because the people that took out the loans did so knowing they would be cancelled later. As if someone who doesn't need a student loan to pay for college is going to use them, losing tuition pre-pay discounts and paying interest charges hoping that they will be cancelled decades later. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Right, because there's no such thing as moral hazard.

"Quote of the day: "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt."

😆
 

4TimeAway

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... As if someone who doesn't need a student loan to pay for college is going to use them, losing tuition pre-pay discounts and paying interest charges hoping that they will be cancelled decades later. Yeah, that's the ticket.
I think the optionality right now makes debt forgiveness a positive expected return and I'd be inclined to have my son max out the loans.

On the other hand, I’m repulsed by the idea of enslaving my son for a depreciating asset and it’s very hard to not call a college degree a consumption item these days. Additionally, the moral lesson of a such a position, however likely of happening, would degrade his moral character and that is too high a cost.

I’m not ignorant of the value of education. It’s just unclear what the modern college education offers in the way of how to make a living, understating oneself or adding value in the marketplace. Specifically, if you factor out selection bias of many colleges and tried to measure skill acquisition as the main value add of most universities for the average student, I’m not convinced you’d see a positive ROI (even ignoring the debt burden).


In some ways a degree is like a timeshare…
We promise you your perfect life and sell you on buying it, but its more important how you use it than that you have it.
 

ScoopKona

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In some ways a degree is like a timeshare…
We promise you your perfect life and sell you on buying it, but its more important how you use it than that you have it.

I agree with this. Loads of degree holders who went only to party, get an MRS or because they thought they had to. Lots of people who forgot everything they learned 15 minutes after graduation. But there's no arguing with math, and degree holders earn much more over the course of their lives. $1.2 million (on average, over the course of a lifetime) is nothing to sneeze at.

Sure, there's a plumber out there who is crushing it in life, making considerably more than the Professor of Shetland Islands Social Customs. People always want to point to that plumber and demand, "See! You don't need a degree."

But for every plumber like that, there's a degree holder who is best described as a tycoon, and all thanks to that sheepskin.
 

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I’m not ignorant of the value of education. It’s just unclear what the modern college education offers in the way of how to make a living, understating oneself or adding value in the marketplace. Specifically, if you factor out selection bias of many colleges and tried to measure skill acquisition as the main value add of most universities for the average student, I’m not convinced you’d see a positive ROI (even ignoring the debt burden).


In some ways a degree is like a timeshare…
We promise you your perfect life and sell you on buying it, but its more important how you use it than that you have it.
Also like timeshares the value of the average or generic college degree is questionable, but specific degrees and specific schools are more valuable. I know too many places that for some reason require a degree or worse, an MBA or masters of some sort to get into management / get promoted past a certain level. It's also true that you get out what you put into college, like many things. Just having a degree won't keep you employed if you can't also do the job cause you did the ol "D for Diploma" thing.

For the generic white collar jobs, I think going for the cheapest accredited degree you can get (like a timeshare with the lowest maintenance fees) makes sense today. This is where basically the employeers have somehow convinced the employees to pay for the sorting / selection you talk about. That said, if you believe the BLS:
They show a bachelors average weekly earnings in 2019 (I think) at $1305 and no college but HS degree at $781. That's $524 a week difference. Doing off the cuff math, that ROI / break even point even on a insanely high $250,000 loan. Figuring someone dragging out repayment to 30 years and a 8.5% rate, you still break even at 25 years and about 4 months. This means if you work about the average 40 years after college, you're 15 years of gravy, so that would be about $408,720 extra over a lifetime. I think that's still decent ROI with pretty pessimistic starting points. You lower the initial loan amount, pay it back a bit faster or we get better interest rates and it all looks better and better.

The problem of course is this is all average, and assuming everything stays the same. I tend to think for people who are generic like I said above, maybe consider alternates like skilled trades, starting a business or the like. For someone who's going to take on higher degree levels, or more specialized degrees, I think the ROI seems even more obvious to me still.
 

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My situation is not the norm. My wife and both hold master’s degrees and professional licenses/designations.

I’ve been loosely working on a book about the philosophy of success. It was mainly about 150 daily emails I was composing while he was finishing High School, but it is has evolved to something more. My current project is getting him to financial success while he pursues a college degree. It’s the idea of AND while placing him in control about his LIFE and how he chooses to live HIS LIFE.

I’ve situationally failed more than once, and I intend to be imperfect. Failure as an advisor shows the difficulty in truly knowing what will happen tomorrow or what people need and when. You can call it Luck and Timing. It’s nearly impossible to get those right. That lesson focuses more on the process of learning, listening, and creating Jazz.

Our son is a highly intelligent and gifted student going to a Community College by his own choosing and despite my pressure to the contrary (failure or test, I’m sure the right tone on that one). He has some AP credits, is getting straight A’s (I’m talking Calculus II getting 100% in the class) who can write and think clearly. I had hoped he would go to a more elite school and discover he wasn’t the smartest person there, but he’s been humbled non-the-less.

He has the innate ability to do many things well and I anticipate him earning $100k a year before he completes college. It also not lost on me that there are cases where highly successful people don’t complete degrees. I’d prefer him to learn sales and people skills than get a piece of paper… but I also want him to get the paper…

Anyway, that’s the dilemma.
 

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Gambling to help homeless son.
 

Elan

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My situation is not the norm. My wife and both hold master’s degrees and professional licenses/designations.

I’ve been loosely working on a book about the philosophy of success. It was mainly about 150 daily emails I was composing while he was finishing High School, but it is has evolved to something more. My current project is getting him to financial success while he pursues a college degree. It’s the idea of AND while placing him in control about his LIFE and how he chooses to live HIS LIFE.

I’ve situationally failed more than once, and I intend to be imperfect. Failure as an advisor shows the difficulty in truly knowing what will happen tomorrow or what people need and when. You can call it Luck and Timing. It’s nearly impossible to get those right. That lesson focuses more on the process of learning, listening, and creating Jazz.

Our son is a highly intelligent and gifted student going to a Community College by his own choosing and despite my pressure to the contrary (failure or test, I’m sure the right tone on that one). He has some AP credits, is getting straight A’s (I’m talking Calculus II getting 100% in the class) who can write and think clearly. I had hoped he would go to a more elite school and discover he wasn’t the smartest person there, but he’s been humbled non-the-less.

He has the innate ability to do many things well and I anticipate him earning $100k a year before he completes college. It also not lost on me that there are cases where highly successful people don’t complete degrees. I’d prefer him to learn sales and people skills than get a piece of paper… but I also want him to get the paper…

Anyway, that’s the dilemma.
I'm paying tuition for 2 right now, and although the original emphasis for both was to get "worthwhile" degrees, such that they could get "meaningful" jobs, I'm now not sure that I wouldn't send them just for the experience.
Generally speaking, these are 18yo kids with a lot of immaturity that need to figure things out. 4+ years in a relatively safe, controlled environment with exposure to multiple different personalities, cultures and thought processes might be enough to justify the expense. Not to mention the sense of accomplishment in completing something that many don't, and that can't ever be taken away. Sometimes, the means can outweigh the end...
 

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I'm paying tuition for 2 right now, and although the original emphasis for both was to get "worthwhile" degrees, such that they could get "meaningful" jobs, I'm now not sure that I wouldn't send them just for the experience.
Generally speaking, these are 18yo kids with a lot of immaturity that need to figure things out. 4+ years in a relatively safe, controlled environment with exposure to multiple different personalities, cultures and thought processes might be enough to justify the expense. Not to mention the sense of accomplishment in completing something that many don't, and that can't ever be taken away. Sometimes, the means can outweigh the end...
True.

I agree with outsourcing the learning, but very few colleges seem worthy of that role and the professors tend to be less intelligent than what I experienced.

My only issue is kids are really messed up these days and seem like Lord of the Flies. Social media is a toxic soup for people in general, but the young are completely addicted.

Personally, I think being around older people with life experience is better. Parents tend to have a limited ability to teach beyond what they already have. That with the rebellious nature increases friction.

I sent my son to Italy for a few weeks and intend to have him travel, camp, etc. multiple times a year to gain that experience of independence. Additionally, I think there are other structured real world business opportunities that stack the function of having skin in the game, being uncomfortable and learning how to make money instead of going into debt.

So far, our focus is on increasing optionality, committing to the AND model of life instead of the default OR model and experiencing the world while developing skills that translate into an interesting life, creating memories and wealth.

I don’t profess there is only one way, but there are paths that seem to lead to places that limit potential. Specifically, believing that waiting to live life for 5 years to have a piece of paper and a mountain of debt that will constrain your options for decades is a fool’s errand for more than just a few. *

*- No doubt the government will forgive the loans after a decade or two of struggling to pay them off, but still, that’s a very long time…. They can just put off getting married, buying houses, and having children until they are 50….
 
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