Why the complaining about MF and Exiting?

[boxer156]

So obviously just starting my research into Wyndham, but the one thing I noticed on this forum--and especially the facebook page--is that everyone complains about the MF fees. I'm not saying I 'enjoy' MF Fees, BUT that is pretty typical for ANY timeshare, is it not??? I own 230pts at OKW, and I pay just under $2k a year for MF--been doing it for like 12 years. Just look at it as part of the program. STILL getting a hell of a deal, since 1/2 Bedrooms are over $700/night cash, and my points there allow us to stay 9/10 nights a year--so WELL over the 2k MF fees. Doing math for Wyndham, and I'm coming up with the same figures--since will book 2-bedrooms pretty much every stay. There is no way I could stay 14+ nights a year with only $1800 I will soon be paying in MF's.

Also, can someone explain to me what the issue is with this 'exiting' I keep reading about??? Again, using Disney as an example--if you don't pay your MF's, they will just take the deed away from you. Is that not the case with Wynham??? Or do they hit your credit or something??? Just kinda lost on this one--but need to know since I'm buying a resale contract soon.

 

[HitchHiker71]

So obviously just starting my research into Wyndham, but the one thing I noticed on this forum--and especially the facebook page--is that everyone complains about the MF fees. I'm not saying I 'enjoy' MF Fees, BUT that is pretty typical for ANY timeshare, is it not??? I own 230pts at OKW, and I pay just under $2k a year for MF--been doing it for like 12 years. Just look at it as part of the program. STILL getting a hell of a deal, since 1/2 Bedrooms are over $700/night cash, and my points there allow us to stay 9/10 nights a year--so WELL over the 2k MF fees. Doing math for Wyndham, and I'm coming up with the same figures--since will book 2-bedrooms pretty much every stay. There is no way I could stay 14+ nights a year with only $1800 I will soon be paying in MF's.

Also, can someone explain to me what the issue is with this 'exiting' I keep reading about??? Again, using Disney as an example--if you don't pay your MF's, they will just take the deed away from you. Is that not the case with Wynham??? Or do they hit your credit or something??? Just kinda lost on this one--but need to know since I'm buying a resale contract soon.

You'll see a lot of references to a Wyndham program called Certified Exit - which is a deedback program that Wyndham offers to take back timeshare contracts (https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/help/wyndham-cares/certified-exit). Since Wyndham is the largest timeshare company out there, there's always a lot of people aging out of vacationing that want to exit, or simply want to get out of their timeshare purchase for various reasons. Don't let it scare you, since you already understand how timesharing works, just keep in mind that, in general, people who are unhappy tend to complain a lot and are vocal about their collective unhappiness, whereas people who are otherwise happy with their purchase, don't ever post anything, especially out on the FB groups. I'm a mod on several FB groups - so I get what you're saying - those groups are mostly filled with complaints. Take it with a grain of salt.

Not all contracts qualify for Wyndham Certified Exit - and/or at a moment in time - Wyndham may have too much of a particular contract type and they suspend deedbacks for that contract type and/or resort for a period of time. For example, the older weeks based contracts that are still around, tend not to qualify for Certified Exit periodically, so you'll see folks complaining that Certified Exit won't take back their contracts - but oftentimes they don't list out the details. Details matter in this life. Again, take what you see with a grain of salt.

 

[Floridaman76]

I don't see a lot of people complaining about maintenance fees. Across all systems, Wyndham MF are lower on average and go up less of a percentage on average.

As people get older and can't travel as much, they tend to exit ownership if their kids don't want them. But everyone expects MF, or at least they should.

I wish Wyndham would be more transparent about what they will and won't take back through certified exit. But you can bet if you own at a popular resort, or own Access, they will take it back, because those are easy resells. It literally allows them to make money multiple times selling the exact same thing.

Some of the older resorts, which are harder or impossible to sell, not so much.

 

[boxer156]

I don't see a lot of people complaining about maintenance fees. Across all systems, Wyndham MF are lower on average and go up less of a percentage on average.

As people get older and can't travel as much, they tend to exit ownership if their kids don't want them. But everyone expects MF, or at least they should.

I wish Wyndham would be more transparent about what they will and won't take back through certified exit. But you can bet if you own at a popular resort, or own Access, they will take it back, because those are easy resells. It literally allows them to make money multiple times selling the exact same thing.

Some of the older resorts, which are harder or impossible to sell, not so much.

Hopefully I'm YEARS away from worrying about this, but why can't you just stop paying the MF's--and then they reassume it? I mean instead of going thru the Exit process???? Or because it's deeded, it carries different credit/terms?

 

[boxer156]

You'll see a lot of references to a Wyndham program called Certified Exit - which is a deedback program that Wyndham offers to take back timeshare contracts (https://clubwyndham.wyndhamdestinations.com/us/en/help/wyndham-cares/certified-exit). Since Wyndham is the largest timeshare company out there, there's always a lot of people aging out of vacationing that want to exit, or simply want to get out of their timeshare purchase for various reasons. Don't let it scare you, since you already understand how timesharing works, just keep in mind that, in general, people who are unhappy tend to complain a lot and are vocal about their collective unhappiness, whereas people who are otherwise happy with their purchase, don't ever post anything, especially out on the FB groups. I'm a mod on several FB groups - so I get what you're saying - those groups are mostly filled with complaints. Take it with a grain of salt.

Not all contracts qualify for Wyndham Certified Exit - and/or at a moment in time - Wyndham may have too much of a particular contract type and they suspend deedbacks for that contract type and/or resort for a period of time. For example, the older weeks based contracts that are still around, tend not to qualify for Certified Exit periodically, so you'll see folks complaining that Certified Exit won't take back their contracts - but oftentimes they don't list out the details. Details matter in this life. Again, take what you see with a grain of salt.

Facebook is wild, lol.........saw one guy try telling people he could 'take multiple vacations anywhere in the world' for the cost of his MF fees, lol. Guessing most MF fees are around $2k, and I can't go to Wildwood Beach for a weekend on that, lol.

 

[Pink_Warrior]

DVC has expiration dates on their timeshares. And they have ROFR. Wyndham has neither.

 

[boxer156]

DVC has expiration dates on their timeshares. And they have ROFR. Wyndham has neither.

There is ROFR at Wyndham I thought.......and yes DVC expires, but there are thousands of people that default before expiration (loans or MF) and Disney takes their contracts back. I used to buy those Defaulted contracts from Fidelity, so I know this happens.

 

[dioxide45]

Hopefully I'm YEARS away from worrying about this, but why can't you just stop paying the MF's--and then they reassume it? I mean instead of going thru the Exit process???? Or because it's deeded, it carries different credit/terms?

If they have a free no cost exit option, why not use it?

 

[dioxide45]

There is ROFR at Wyndham I thought.......and yes DVC expires, but there are thousands of people that default before expiration (loans or MF) and Disney takes their contracts back. I used to buy those Defaulted contracts from Fidelity, so I know this happens.

Many people, especially the older generation, take pride in the fact that they never defaulted on an obligation they signed up for. They have an impeccable credit score and think that a default might impact that.

 

[boxer156]

If they have a free no cost exit option, why not use it?

I don't disagree.........just more or less asking what happens if you just 'stop' paying the MF's.

 

[boxer156]

Many people, especially the older generation, take pride in the fact that they never defaulted on an obligation they signed up for. They have an impeccable credit score and think that a default might impact that.

I do too....so that is why I'm asking. I kind of figured they hit credit, or at least try to. Just asking because most at Disney will just 'stop' paying, and let them take it.

 

[TheHolleys87]

I do too....so that is why I'm asking. I kind of figured they hit credit, or at least try to. Just asking because most at Disney will just 'stop' paying, and let them take it.

Remember, when DVC takes a contract back, they can resell those points. When someone defaults on dues on a timeshare that's no longer in active sales, there isn't automatically a way for the HOA to sell that share because the developer/sales unit has moved on. Costs of maintaining and operating the unit that share represents fall on the remaining owners.

 

[dioxide45]

I do too....so that is why I'm asking. I kind of figured they hit credit, or at least try to. Just asking because most at Disney will just 'stop' paying, and let them take it.

But people don't necessarily know that. There is the threat, and possibility, of a credit hit. People put too much importance on their credit scores.

 

[paxsarah]

I don't see a lot of people complaining about maintenance fees. Across all systems, Wyndham MF are lower on average and go up less of a percentage on average.

I don't see it much here. I do see it on Facebook, but on average Facebook has less informed owners who don't always get the connection between maintenance fees and actually, you know, maintaining the resorts. Or the concept of ownership with all of the rights and responsibilities thereof, versus membership.

 

[TheHolleys87]

I don't see it much here. I do see it on Facebook, but on average Facebook has less informed owners who don't always get the connection between maintenance fees and actually, you know, maintaining the resorts. Or the concept of ownership with all of the rights and responsibilities thereof, versus membership.

I see that on DVC sites, too. And even my dad, owner of multiple timeshares, once told me after we left BWV (too late for me to do anything about it) that he was bringing home a roll of toilet paper “because Disney can afford it!”

 

[TUGBrian]

nov/dec/jan/feb.... mf bills tend to come in the mail and as such....the complaining about increases.

death...taxes...maint fee increases!

 

[jp10558]

Facebook is wild, lol.........saw one guy try telling people he could 'take multiple vacations anywhere in the world' for the cost of his MF fees, lol. Guessing most MF fees are around $2k, and I can't go to Wildwood Beach for a weekend on that, lol.

I am not on Facebook - much to my joy almost all the time. But I've seen this argument on other forums and well - people seem to be slightly delusional. Every time but one I try and compare same bedrooms, IDK 50 mile radius, and time of year the timeshares are cheaper, often significantly so. There is exactly one week I'm doing next April where theoretically an AirBnB would be cheaper than Wyndham La Belle Mason in New Orleans. But that is a very expensive stay, and IDK the actual AirBnB quality or location vs La Belle Mason.

The other thing is - "multiple vacations" is vague, maybe he means one night in the lowest cost hotel available? I know decent hotels are up to about $200 a room a night now after taxes. There are some like Tru or Spark off the highway sort of locations for $130/night after taxes - that's about the bottom unless you go extremely low quality (in the Eastern US anyway).

I think the "honest" MF complaints are either extreme raises not in line with other competing systems and ones that are higher than the cash rate that's regularly available. If I can 75%+ of the time go on RCI Extra Vacations or even worse Last Call and book for less than MFs - the resort has a bit of an issue IMO. I can see people wanting to get out of that if they own to go to that resort. It's different if it's like a 1% of the time jackpot of course - being practically able to book is worth some money.

The exit complaints are a mix of "you really should read contracts you sign" and "developers and HOAs need to have a plan for people leaving the ownership - either through resale market, deedbacks or they'll get defaults and deaths". But human owners don't live forever. IDK why it's such a misunderstood thing for independent resorts - a basic sales office to put up a listing every quarter of owners who'd like to pass on their ownership (with realistic guidance on the price) so other owners at the location could easily pick up additional weeks or potential new owners could grab a week doesn't seem that hard. The "not in active sales" locations don't really have a developer so don't have a need to get tens of thousands per deed, they need the MFs paid and rehoming weeks likely would reduce MF bad debt.

 

[TUGBrian]

agreed, independent resorts should at least do a bare minimum of effort to provide lists of current returned inventory, or inventory from owners who are looking to exit.

though that requires someone to do that legwork on their own and likely not get paid to do it!

we have always offered any independent resort the option of a free membership so they can post a listing (or listings) in the marketplace for their resales/rentals that may be controlled by the resort or association! even if the listing contains a link back to the resort itself where they can maintain their current list of inventory!

I know a number of resorts simply keep a spreadsheet and regularly post it on their facebook page which is an amazing idea.

 

[bnoble]

the one thing I noticed on this forum--and especially the facebook page--is that everyone complains about the MF fees.

TUGgers are...frugal…to put it charitably. Facebook is essentially a similar group of people holding the discussion an outrage machine.

 

[Floridaman76]

Hopefully I'm YEARS away from worrying about this, but why can't you just stop paying the MF's--and then they reassume it? I mean instead of going thru the Exit process???? Or because it's deeded, it carries different credit/terms?

maybe I don't understand your question, but let me pose this.

You own a couple additional homes you are renting out as investment income. You have mortgages on those homes.

Your renters move out and you are having a hard time filling them.

Can you just stop paying your mortgage, insurance, taxes? We both know the answer to that.

Or, say you are a snowbird and own a home in Florida where you spend only November through March annually. Can you just stop paying for your mortgage/insurance/utilities/cable/internet because you aren't there 7 months out of the year? Again, no. You could cancel your cable and internet, but there are usually costs associated with that (early termination, then additional setup fees when you get back)

Timeshare ownership is a contract, and Wyndham is perpetual. You own it, and are obligated to pay for it, whether or not you use it, until you exit. In theory if you stop paying MF, they will cancel your contract and ownership and could ding your credit for default. I have no idea if they actually do that in practice, but they could.

You can't just stop paying for it because you feel like it, or don't have time to use it. It just doesn't work that way.

With resale you get in the door VERY cheap, but you are still obligated to the same maintenance fees as everyone else.

 

[pedro47]

There is a big difference in the above post. The value of the average home purchase twenty years ago have increase in value. Yes, you must pay to maintain your home and pay real estate taxes every year.

A timeshare purchase at $20,000.00 dollars two years ago from a developer the value of that timeshare have dropped approximately 9O% in two years and yes! You must pay m/ f on a property that have loss it original purchase price of $20,000.00 dollars. IMHO

You can purchased that same timeshare today for resale $5,000.00 dollars or less.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Hopefully I'm YEARS away from worrying about this, but why can't you just stop paying the MF's--and then they reassume it? I mean instead of going thru the Exit process???? Or because it's deeded, it carries different credit/terms?

Defaulting can affect your credit - and since Wyndham may take it back for no cost and very little hassle - just use the CE program. Easy peasy.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I do too....so that is why I'm asking. I kind of figured they hit credit, or at least try to. Just asking because most at Disney will just 'stop' paying, and let them take it.

For CWA - it's a trust based ownership - you don't hold any deed that has to be foreclosed on - whereas if you purchase a deeded ownership - legally Wyndham has to foreclose on the deeded property - which is more likely to be listed on your credit profile. If the owner still owes Wyndham from a retail purchase - it will almost assuredly impact their credit report, if any loans are paid off - even if it's a deeded ownership - and the owner defaults on the MFs - Wyndham may or may not report it to the credit bureaus. We've had mixed reports - some owners see no hit to their credit report - others do.

 

[boxer156]

maybe I don't understand your question, but let me pose this.

You own a couple additional homes you are renting out as investment income. You have mortgages on those homes.

Your renters move out and you are having a hard time filling them.

Can you just stop paying your mortgage, insurance, taxes? We both know the answer to that.

Or, say you are a snowbird and own a home in Florida where you spend only November through March annually. Can you just stop paying for your mortgage/insurance/utilities/cable/internet because you aren't there 7 months out of the year? Again, no. You could cancel your cable and internet, but there are usually costs associated with that (early termination, then additional setup fees when you get back)

Timeshare ownership is a contract, and Wyndham is perpetual. You own it, and are obligated to pay for it, whether or not you use it, until you exit. In theory if you stop paying MF, they will cancel your contract and ownership and could ding your credit for default. I have no idea if they actually do that in practice, but they could.

You can't just stop paying for it because you feel like it, or don't have time to use it. It just doesn't work that way.

With resale you get in the door VERY cheap, but you are still obligated to the same maintenance fees as everyone else.

Yes you completely misunderstood lol. I was just comparing it to Disney (which I've now learned is different) in the fact when people default, disney just comes in and scoops it back up

 

[dioxide45]

Yes you completely misunderstood lol. I was just comparing it to Disney (which I've now learned is different) in the fact when people default, disney just comes in and scoops it back up

It isn't quite that simple. Disney still has to file a lien against the deed and foreclose. If the default is on mortgage payments, they have to foreclose as well.