Why is Vistana/MVWC Maintaining the Fiction that Certain Properties are Open?

[komosatp]

I own at Harborside and was due to check-in Saturday (April 4).

Atlantis closed March 25th until at least mid-May. The Bahamas has prohibited international visitors from entering the country since last week, and for another 30 days or so, at least. And the country is under a 24 hour curfew.

But when you go to https://hub.vacationclub.com/resort-updates/ , it says this:

Harborside Resort at Atlantis
Paradise Island, Bahamas
Resort Status: Open only for Owner and Interval International arrivals from Wednesday, March 25, 2020 through Thursday, April 23, 2020 (subject to change). Limited amenities and services currently in place.
Resort Amenities: The following services and amenities have been modified or are currently unavailable due to government orders and other precautions that have been implemented due to COVID-19: Daily housekeeping is no longer available, fitness center/classes, pools, spa(s), hot tub(s), Kids club, arcades/media rooms, BBQ grills are currently closed. If applicable, resort activity schedules have also been modified or cancelled in accordance with CDC, WHO and local guidelines. Additionally, if applicable, food and beverage outlets are only offering take-out service.

For Official Information: http://Bahamas.gov.bs
Last modified: March 30, 2020

And it has said the same thing for days.

Is it just incompetence? laziness? IT department delay? Or is there a legal reason they aren't 'closing' the resort?

 

[DannyTS]

I own at Harborside and was due to check-in Saturday (April 4).

Atlantis closed March 25th until at least mid-May. The Bahamas has prohibited international visitors from entering the country since last week, and for another 30 days or so, at least. And the country is under a 24 hour curfew.

But when you go to https://hub.vacationclub.com/resort-updates/ , it says this:

Harborside Resort at Atlantis
Paradise Island, Bahamas
Resort Status: Open only for Owner and Interval International arrivals from Wednesday, March 25, 2020 through Thursday, April 23, 2020 (subject to change). Limited amenities and services currently in place.
Resort Amenities: The following services and amenities have been modified or are currently unavailable due to government orders and other precautions that have been implemented due to COVID-19: Daily housekeeping is no longer available, fitness center/classes, pools, spa(s), hot tub(s), Kids club, arcades/media rooms, BBQ grills are currently closed. If applicable, resort activity schedules have also been modified or cancelled in accordance with CDC, WHO and local guidelines. Additionally, if applicable, food and beverage outlets are only offering take-out service.

For Official Information: http://Bahamas.gov.bs
Last modified: March 30, 2020

And it has said the same thing for days.

Is it just incompetence? laziness? IT department delay? Or is there a legal reason they aren't 'closing' the resort?

Maybe they do not want to prorate and refund MF to the owners? Maybe they think the owners love paying for the maintenance costs when nobody is there?

 

[komosatp]

Maybe they do not want to prorate and refund MF to the owners? Maybe they think the owners love paying for the maintenance costs when nobody is there?

Aren't we obligated to pay our dues either way? And even if there's some closure trigger requiring rebates, can't they do special assessments anyway, to make up for HOA shortfalls?

At the moment, I'm more upset about their behavior than I am about my missed ownership week. I understand why I can't get into the country and why the resort ought to be closed. I don't understand why they're calling HRA open, and it makes me suspicious.

 

[dioxide45]

Perhaps some way to protect their travel insurance provider? Close the resorts and perhaps there are now potential claims...

 

[komosatp]

Perhaps some way to protect their travel insurance provider? Close the resorts and perhaps there are now potential claims...

Could be, but wouldn't that put them in serious legal jeopardy of violating their fiduciary responsibility to look out for owners' best interest? I know that idea is somewhat laughable in the timeshare world, but they's have to be weighing the relative litigation risks if that's their motivation.

Plus I too a look at the policy afmilyfunatatlantis sells, and resort closure is not among the specified reasons the policies will pay. It will be interesting to see how that all shakes out.

 

[oneohana]

So if someone is still at Harborside which I doubt, it is ok to close down and kick them out?

In the Palm Springs area, WDW and WMH are closed. Whereas the Marriotts are staying open to those who are already there.

 

[echino]

We are at Waiohai now. Only three villas are occupied, including ours. The rest of the resort is empty. They are not kicking us out. We are allowed to stay until the end of our reservation.

 

[ocdb8r]

It's not as easy/cut and dry as it might be with a regular resort. As people mentioned in thread about getting "kicked out" of WKORV, some view their timeshare ownership as truly a second home. Many still own actual specific deeded weeks. Has someone come to shut your home down? If you live in a condo complex, would you expect the staff that keep basic services there up an running to pack up and leave and say "sorry, the condo complex is closed"?

Of course, I know it's not the same situation at all, but some people don't see it that way....and legally in some cases it's a very grey area. At the end of the day, I also don't find it that odd. I certainly expect some skeleton crew of staff to remain to ensure security, monitor the property for any issues (think broken water pipes...etc). If a few people actually find a way to travel to (or were already at) the resort, I don't see why you wouldn't let them use their week. Of course, I'm also sympathetic to anyone who would benefit from an official "resort closure" announcement....but I think those people are few and far between.

 

[blondietink]

I own at Harborside and was due to check-in Saturday (April 4).

Atlantis closed March 25th until at least mid-May. The Bahamas has prohibited international visitors from entering the country since last week, and for another 30 days or so, at least. And the country is under a 24 hour curfew.

But when you go to https://hub.vacationclub.com/resort-updates/ , it says this:

Harborside Resort at Atlantis
Paradise Island, Bahamas
Resort Status: Open only for Owner and Interval International arrivals from Wednesday, March 25, 2020 through Thursday, April 23, 2020 (subject to change). Limited amenities and services currently in place.
Resort Amenities: The following services and amenities have been modified or are currently unavailable due to government orders and other precautions that have been implemented due to COVID-19: Daily housekeeping is no longer available, fitness center/classes, pools, spa(s), hot tub(s), Kids club, arcades/media rooms, BBQ grills are currently closed. If applicable, resort activity schedules have also been modified or cancelled in accordance with CDC, WHO and local guidelines. Additionally, if applicable, food and beverage outlets are only offering take-out service.

For Official Information: http://Bahamas.gov.bs
Last modified: March 30, 2020

And it has said the same thing for days.

Is it just incompetence? laziness? IT department delay? Or is there a legal reason they aren't 'closing' the resort?

"BBQ grills are currently closed." Since when does Harborside have BBQ grills? Did I miss something?

 

[komosatp]

So if someone is still at Harborside which I doubt, it is ok to close down and kick them out?

Interesting point. But why is it 'technically' open for new arrivals? This language has been on the website for over a week: "Open only for Owner and Interval International arrivals from Wednesday, March 25, 2020 through Thursday, April 23, 2020 ". That's in the context of nobody being allowed into the country and a 24 hour curfew. And Atlantis is closed....not closed to new visitors, closed. And no restaurants in the country are operating.

Has someone come to shut your home down? If you live in a condo complex, would you expect the staff that keep basic services there up an running to pack up and leave and say "sorry, the condo complex is closed"?

Fair enough. But there are circumstances when even owned-homes get condemned and people are not allowed into their own property. A bio-hazard is among the reasons for a condemnation.

If a few people actually find a way to travel to (or were already at) the resort, I don't see why you wouldn't let them use their week.

In HRA's case, its currently illegal for someone to enter the Bahamas. And from a practical perspective, all incoming flights are banned and so are sea-arrivals. Its an island, so the only other options would be large sling shots, or teleportation.

Page not found – Office of the Prime Minister

opm.gov.bs

PRESS CONFERENCE: Update on COVID-19 - 1 April - Office of the Prime Minister

Good afternoon. I wanted to provide an update on where we are today in our ongoing battle against the health and economic challenges posed by COVID-19. As expected, we are in a surge. There is community spread. I want to announce that there are six new cases. This means that as of today, April...

opm.gov.bs

 

[komosatp]

"BBQ grills are currently closed." Since when does Harborside have BBQ grills? Did I miss something?

Exactly! Why can't they have specific information for each resort! Is it laziness or incompetence? They're not even worth 50% of their salaries currently. I'd rather they get paid 100% and do a good job.

 

[komosatp]

Of course, I'm also sympathetic to anyone who would benefit from an official "resort closure" announcement.

Your point might address the question well: what benefit would impacted owners receive if the resort were closed and owners were denied access to their deeded week/unit? And is that why management is acting like this?

If there ever was a force majure, I'd think there current pandemic would qualify. I'd assume our governing documents might address this, but the only part of my governing documents that I've read in detail is the access deed between Atlantis and Harborside.

 

[emeryjre]

What you are pointing out is just another example of the lack of "digital awareness" with the leadership at Marriott. They preach to the customers to use the website to get answers when we all know how well that works. Not sure how to get the company to recognize this shortcoming, but it management does not score well in this area.

 

[ocdb8r]

Interesting point. But why is it 'technically' open for new arrivals? This language has been on the website for over a week: "Open only for Owner and Interval International arrivals from Wednesday, March 25, 2020 through Thursday, April 23, 2020 ". That's in the context of nobody being allowed into the country and a 24 hour curfew. And Atlantis is closed....not closed to new visitors, closed. And no restaurants in the country are operating.

In HRA's case, its currently illegal for someone to enter the Bahamas. And from a practical perspective, all incoming flights are banned and so are sea-arrivals. Its an island, so the only other options would be large sling shots, or teleportation.

This doesn't address any people who were already at HRA or already in the Bahamas. It also doesn't take into account that (while I agree very unlikely) these orders could be lifted at any moment. Strangely, you'll notice none of these orders explicitly require resorts to close down...if the Bahamanian government isn't willing to take that step, why should Vistana?

Your point might address the question well: what benefit would impacted owners receive if the resort were closed and owners were denied access to their deeded week/unit? And is that why management is acting like this?

If there ever was a force majure, I'd think there current pandemic would qualify. I'd assume our governing documents might address this, but the only part of my governing documents that I've read in detail is the access deed between Atlantis and Harborside.

1) don't be so sure. This is a source of intense debate in the commercial and legal community right now. This is not a clear cut case of force majeure and a reading of the specific terms of each contract would need to be looked at to see if it applies;

2) if it is or might be force majeure, it doesn't alleviate Vistana of the legal obligation to keep the resorts open. Even in cases of Force Majeure, counterparties are required to take all reasonable steps to seek to avoid or mitigate the event or its consequences. In other words, Vistana may feel obligated to keep the resort open unless forcibly closed down.

Fair enough. But there are circumstances when even owned-homes get condemned and people are not allowed into their own property. A bio-hazard is among the reasons for a condemnation.

Right, but again 1) we don't have a situation where any authority has ordered the Resorts to be shut down and 2) even when something like this happens, do you think it alleviates you of any mortgage or other payment obligation you might have had on that home?

I struggle here because I'm not one to defend Vistana, but I also don't think it's reasonable that we expect they make their own decision to shut all resorts down in the current situation.

 

[komosatp]

It also doesn't take into account that (while I agree very unlikely) these orders could be lifted at any moment.

The edicts from the Bahamian PM, with his parliament's approval, are all time-bound with expiration dates. I may not have linked to the original because there have been several iterations. The order being lifted is as likely as miracle curing everyone simultaneously.

Strangely, you'll notice none of these orders explicitly require resorts to close down...if the Bahamanian government isn't willing to take that step, why should Vistana?

The initial closure orders excluded resorts. Some subsequent order revoked that exclusion. Resorts are currently ordered to be closed. Again, I'm not sure If I've linked to the right places. Plus, Atlantis is closed. That should be enough for HRA to close. Are you familiar with Harborside's relationship with Atlantis?

do you think it alleviates you of any mortgage or other payment obligation you might have had on that home?

No, and I haven't suggested anything of the sort.

 

[ocdb8r]

I don't think there's any reason to get defensive.

I'm well aware of Harborside's relationship with Atlantis. Atlantis being opened is not required for Harborside to be open. Are you now implying that Harborside is defying a government order to be closed? I didn't see any government order covering resorts in general, and certainly nothing covering timeshare resorts. If Vistana is keeping Harborside open in contravention of such an order, this would indeed be odd and cause for concern.

Your initial question was to ask why they might be keeping it open and I think I gave you my thoughts on that.

Your subsequent questions alluded to their perhaps being some other motive for officially keeping the resort open (i.e. to prevent affected owners from deriving some legal benefit afforded to them). I can't see any specific benefit.

Edited to add: It looks like Vistana has no issue closing some resorts and has indeed closed the Palm Desert resorts and Westin St. John with a link to the relevant order causing the closure.

 

[komosatp]

It finally says Harborside is closed:

 

[NJDave]

It finally says Harborside is closed:

View attachment 18533

I have a reservation in 3 weeks. No word yet from Vistana.

 

[NJDave]

We now have 2 weeks before our trip. No word from Vistana.

Will we have an option of having our points returned without any new restrictions (rather than being extended to December 2021 with a 120 day restriction) if we wait it out since the resort is closed.

 

[dioxide45]

---deleted---

Misunderstood the post.

 

[controller1]

We now have 2 weeks before our trip. No word from Vistana.

Will we have an option of having our points returned without any new restrictions (rather than being extended to December 2021 with a 120 day restriction) if we wait it out since the resort is closed.

Why do you ask about a no restriction option when your stay begins in two weeks?

 

[NJDave]

Why do you ask about a no restriction option when your stay begins in two weeks?

I was asking if there be a difference is Vistana cancels the reservation since they are closed rather than if we cancel.

 

[dioxide45]

I was asking if there be a difference is Vistana cancels the reservation since they are closed rather than if we cancel.

There seems to be no difference.

 

[NJDave]

There seems to be no difference.

Thanks for the reply. I'll go ahead an cancel then.

I waited for the flights and United cancelled. I was able to get a refund rather than a credit since United cancelled rather than me.

 

[burkeenv]

Aren't we obligated to pay our dues either way? And even if there's some closure trigger requiring rebates, can't they do special assessments anyway, to make up for HOA shortfalls?

At the moment, I'm more upset about their behavior than I am about my missed ownership week. I understand why I can't get into the country and why the resort ought to be closed. I don't understand why they're calling HRA open, and it makes me suspicious.

Aren't we obligated to pay our dues either way? And even if there's some closure trigger requiring rebates, can't they do special assessments anyway, to make up for HOA shortfalls?

At the moment, I'm more upset about their behavior than I am about my missed ownership week. I understand why I can't get into the country and why the resort ought to be closed. I don't understand why they're calling HRA open, and it makes me suspicious.

I requested a partial rebate on MF from Harborside due to severely limited access. Vistana said people are still coming to Harborside. A letter from Vistana stated "While a resort may experience a temporary period of low occupancy or closure, the resort expenses do not go away. As a result, we are unable to refund or waive maintenance fees." Clearly the resort expenses are substantially reduced but Vistana will not admit this. Anyone else approached Vistana w. same request?