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Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member

pianodinosaur

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Zerocylinders made an excellent point about the possibility of a substandard exchange outside the HGVC and MCVI networks. I think that bad exchanges may be avoided by checking out the TUG Reviews prior to booking. We currently have no intention of converting our MCVI weeks into points. We have generally had a good experience with both II and RCI because of TUG Reviews. Our next II exchange will be into the Hyatt near San Antonio. I will let you know if it was OK when I write a review.
 

Tamaradarann

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Zerocylinders made an excellent point about the possibility of a substandard exchange outside the HGVC and MCVI networks. I think that bad exchanges may be avoided by checking out the TUG Reviews prior to booking. We currently have no intention of converting our MCVI weeks into points. We have generally had a good experience with both II and RCI because of TUG Reviews. Our next II exchange will be into the Hyatt near San Antonio. I will let you know if it was OK when I write a review.

I agree with your thoughts here on some great RCI exchanges. We don't own any II resorts so I can't comment on those. We have exchanged through RCI with either our RCI or HGVC points for the following resorts that were great for their central city locations that you didn't need a car: Donatello in San Francisco, The Quarterhouse in New Orleans, Gas Lamp Suites in San Diego, Hilton Club in New York, the Galleon in Key West. We have exchanged through RCI for these very nice resorts in less than urban locations where a car was needed to enjoy our stay: Smuggler's Notch in Vermont, Palm Beach Shores in Palm Beach Florida, In-Season Resort Pollard Brook in New Hampshire, Wyndham's Governor's Green in Williamsburg, Woodstone Massanutten, Lawai Beach Resort in Koloa Hawaii, Wyndham Kona Hawaiian Resort in Kona Hawaii, Ka'anapali Beach Club in Lahaina Hawaii, and Maui Lea in Kihei Hawaii.
 

GregT

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We have over 40,000 annual points in HGVC, including Barbados and Sunrise Lodge that were developer purchases (rest resale). We recently decided to make a Marriott Vacation Club purchase because we anticipate a regular trip to St. Thomas where HGVC has no offerings. We ended up with a 29,000 point annual package with MVC. We have since made the decision to slowly unwind most of our HGVC ownership because of how superior MVC is.

I thought it might be helpful to share our experiences and thinking, particularly the comparison between the two systems (I know folks also love Disney, but the limited offerings there make that choice an apples to oranges comparison). This is a long post, and represents years of experience over the past 9 years with HGVC. It is long because I am primarily writing this: (1) for someone considering buying into HGVC now, who might be interested in comparing HGVC to MVC; and (2) if anyone at HGVC cares to save their company and ends up reading this, for constructive criticism of a system that I used to really enjoy but now want to leave.

Please don’t consider this a troll poss. As far as the properties go, we absolutely LOVE HGVC. I have never had a complaint about HGVC’s properties. We still love Eagles Nest and our Bay Club Kona Villa and will probably keep those properties just because we love staying there. We have never had a bad experience and have stayed at most of the US HGVC properties. That same positive comment applies to staff, room size, amenities, cleanliness, furnishings, etc. The foregoing is the reason we have stayed within the HGVC system so long, despite the warning signs discussed below.

Also on the positive side, HGVCs maintenance fees are generally (if you choose properties, unit sizes, and seasons with maintenance fees in mind) lower per week than a comparable MVC property. That is why we avoided MVC in the past...

With all of that, you would think that we would just want to stay with HGVC where we have spent so much time and money. However, our recent MVC experience really brought home how many problems HGVC has and explains why HGVC is having problems in the investment market (see the other post re poor HGVC financial performance and possible takeover rumors).

1) Balkanization of HGVC. One of the biggest problems in HGVC is that every property presents a fundamentally different ownership - a point is NOT just a point. For example, owners at the “Hilton Club” in NY and DC have almost exclusive access to their own properties while they also get full access to my properties. This creates a new tier where you must buy into those properties in order to get full access. As discussed in my other post, Barbados has so few units that it hardly an option and the maintenance fees exceed market rental rates. Many properties have “event weeks” that are completely unavailable to ordinary Elite Premier owners (Sunset Lodge for example has the only week we want as an event week but that was not disclosed to us). Why such disparity? The answer, I think, lies partly in HGVC’s go to market strategy that it refers to as “capital lite” - e.g., they actually brag about not spending capital on new development. What this actually means in practice is that HGVC is just a brand and management company that is used on a third party development project. Whatever the reason, though, it is frustrating. Buying from HGVC now requires a careful analysis of which property’s developer is offering the best deal, reading through complex disclosure statements to find the gotchas that vary from project to project, and having faith that there will not in the future be a better deal from a different developer that you will be forced into to maintain real status (e.g., the Hilton Club situation). MVC has some of that in its “legacy” weeks system, but its newer DC points system is straightforward and egalitarian. The only way to get a leg up on other owners in the DC point system is to buy more points (giving a 13 month reservation advantage at 7000 points), but even that vanishes if you are willing to use extra points to get the 13 month window (which is an allowed move in the system). “Event weeks” in MVC similarly just require more points, they are not allocated to any particular owner (except for legacy weeks that are no longer sold). The “city” clubs like NY and Boston within MVC similarly require more points, but are open to all on an equal basis.

2) Corporate vs Local HGVC. A related issue is the constant battle between obviously commissioned sales agents representing a particular development (e.g., the local sales team at a property like Sunrise Lodge) versus the Orlando corporate team. They literally fight each other for your business, each claiming to have the best deal. There are all kinds of tricks documented in this forum for maximizing that fight to get the real best deal. Because of the balkanization issue, getting the best deal requires that you know quite a lot about the HGVC system (for example, knowing about he South Florida Hilton resales, NY Club advantages, using resale trade-ups, local event weeks, etc.) in addition to the basic $/point economics. This is ultimately an exhausting way to buy a timeshare though. In contract, dealing with MVC was a dream. There was no competition, no infighting, they all talk to each other work together as a team (even between local and corporate teams).

3) Lying HGVC Sales Team. We have had three situations where the HGVC sales person has lied to us, or promised things that never happened after closing. The latest example (which may have been our final straw when combined with the great experience we had buying from MVC) is instructive. As part of a complex deal we traded a 3 bedroom premier unit at Sunrise for the new Barbados property (plus cash from us). One of the drivers to this deal for us was that our bastard child - a Grand Pacific Palisades 3 bedroom that we bought not realizing that it could not be registered with HGVC - would be brought into HGVC ownership. This was not just a passing promise, we had it in writing and reconfirmed several times. Of course, it never happened and the Grand Pacific local sales team (see points 1 & 2 above also) say no one ever talked to them and they refused to move our GPP unit into HGVC ownership. Ultimately, though, no one at HGVC cares enough to fix the issue (or they can’t because of the balkanization issue). In comparison, we dealt with at least 4 different MVC reps including local and corporate.. surprisingly they all worked together as a team, there was no fight for commission visible to us, and they all worked hard to get our deal closed AND to fulfill promises made AFTER closing.

4) Limits on (Legal) Rentals Kill Big Ownership Economics. According to HGVC rules, you may only rent your home week (you are not legally permitted to rent a Club point reservation that is not a home week). You also cannot “rent” HGVC points, even to another HGVC owner. Other options for using excess points are extremely unattractive financially. This all means that I have to plan carefully a year in advance for points I need, then reserve home weeks at the properties I will rent... then post on VRBO (which has been increasingly taking more and more of the rental fees), find a renter for my home week, and deal with each week rental. In a few cases (Anderson Club, Sunset Lodge, Eagle’s Nest) we have consistently seen rentals easily made above maintenance fees. But, it is a huge hassle and other properties (Kona, Orlando, Vegas, Barbados) are difficult to impossible to rent above maintenance fees. And without any option to rent points, unused points end up as Hilton HHonors points that have very limited use (HHonors has become one of the least valuable points systems over the past few years, and even at 25:1 transfer ratio it is better to spend cash than points). In comparison, I was able to “rent” over 24,000 MVC 2020 points that we can’t use for about $15K. It took me 3 days from posting to completing the transfer with MVC and paid my maintenance fees for 2020 plus a good return on invested capital.

5) Geographic concentration of inventory. HGVC is heavily concentrated in Orlando, Vegas, the Big Island of Hawaii, and Honolulu. A few other choices with limited inventory (Sunset Lodge, Barbados) and the Hilton Club properties round out the offerings. No Caribbean offerings of any import (as discussed above and in my other post, Barbados is a bad joke). While MVC also has a massive amount of inventory in Orlando, it also has a much much wider spread of offerings across the for example: Hawaii (including Maui and Kauai), multiple Florida locations like Ft Lauderdale not covered by HGVC, Arizona, Boston, St. Thomas, St Kitts, etc. etc.

6) Instability due to IPO. The spin out of HGVC from the larger Hilton organization had exactly the effect I feared - disastrous. They are now fending off offers from private equity that would clearly milk existing owners until the whole thing collapses. Financial performance has not been on par with Wall Street expectations. It all points to a very uncertain future, without the backing of Hilton.

You will love the St. Thomas properties -- the Ritz Carlton STT is a favorite spot of ours and we love it almost as much as we love the Maui Ocean Club. If it was easier to access from California, that might be our primary property.

You've had some very disappointing experiences with the HGVC commercial side and I can understand and agree with the frustration that you articulate. HGVC developed a great point system (and great properties) and it is very regrettable that the sleaziness of the timeshare business has permeated HGVC. You make an interesting observation about the downside of asset-lite development. We tend to think only about the expansion of the network, without considering the downside.

Enjoy your MVC and whatever you retain from HGVC. I hope we enjoy a Mai Tai together at MOC (or HHV) one day.

Best,

Greg
 

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The fact that virtually everyone on this board has your view (only buy resale) should indicate that there is an issue and should still concern you. Why is it that HGVC can't make an effective direct offering (as MVC and DVC are able to do) that is compelling? Buying resale is not a panacea, it is a band-aid and a temporary one at that (HGVC can't survive if it can't offer a competitive direct offering; and all of us HGVC owners will suffer if HGVC ceases to be competitive in direct offerings). That is putting aside the issue that there are some important benefits to elite levels (at least for me).

A lot of good discussion here and some very interesting points that you've made (even if they don't apply to us or reflect the way we use/want to use our HGVC- as others have said). I wanted to respond to this one in particular (the DVC side of things, because I see it differently from you. Can't speak to MVC, however.

I don't agree that DVC are actually able to make what I would consider an "effective direct offering" in a real sense. Their direct offerings are increasing in price at a good rate- as much or more than HGVC. The only reason that DVC may seem to offer a reasonable direct offering is that, contrary to any other timeshare system I've heard of, the resale prices for a number of properties are actually increasing over time. We own two DVC properties (Boardwalk and Beach Club Villas) that we bought about 10 years back (resale) and we would make 30-50% more than we paid. This is a timeshare industry aberration as far as I know and only makes the direct "seem" reasonable.

HGVC, like most, declines. I think that the direct are no worse than DVC. It's just that the resale comparison makes it appear so. And I don't see a reason to be concerned about a "buy resale" sentiment. These are all "used products anyway, so the direct versus resale product is identical (barring the Elite benefits which you value and most here do not). So where is the cause for concern?

Cheers.
 

SmithOp

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I am very happy with my single resale HGVC contract, and when I cant use the points I find it easy to rent them and make a small profit over maint fees. I’ve owned for 19 years now.

Seems like someone drank the kool-aid buying 40k points from HGVC. I dont see how elite benefits or renting will ever overcome the price you paid, it must be $200K or more. The only lesson I see here is you got sold a pig in a poke.


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Tamaradarann

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I am very happy with my single resale HGVC contract, and when I cant use the points I find it easy to rent them and make a small profit over maint fees. I’ve owned for 19 years now.

Seems like someone drank the kool-aid buying 40k points from HGVC. I dont see how elite benefits or renting will ever overcome the price you paid, it must be $200K or more. The only lesson I see here is you got sold a pig in a poke.


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I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.

However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points. Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all. We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter. We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village. How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?

I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!
 

SmithOp

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I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.

However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points. Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all. We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter. We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village. How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?

I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!

The only resale mentioned was the orphan GPP. He said he was lied to 3 times by HGVC sales for things that did not happen after closing. He stated Sunset Lodge traded in for Barbados, which is so new the price tag must be astronomical.

I understand your situation, you worked the system to get elite, this guy got worked over by the system.


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frank808

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I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.

However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points. Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all. We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter. We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village. How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?

I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!
We own about 60k points and can't seem to make it last more than 35 days in Waikiki. Those 2br units at Grand Islander sure eat up points :) If we were to stay at lagoon 2br we might be able to get up to 60 nights. But it sure is not easy trying to piece together a 30 night consecutive stay at lagoon.

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CalGalTraveler

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The only resale mentioned was the orphan GPP. He said he was lied to 3 times by HGVC sales for things that did not happen after closing. He stated Sunset Lodge traded in for Barbados, which is so new the price tag must be astronomical.

I understand your situation, you worked the system to get elite, this guy got worked over by the system.


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Well said. Sadly rather than maximizing what he owns it now looks like he may have gotten worked over by MVC unless he negotiated a deal to work the MVC system similar to some of the super MVCers.
 

frank808

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Well said. Sadly rather than maximizing what he owns it now looks like he may have gotten worked over by MVC unless he negotiated a deal to work the MVC system similar to some of the super MVCers.
He got a great deal for points from a resale perspective. He paid resale prices for and got same benefits as buying directly from developer. This is from his posts on the Marriott forum. To get this deal you are spending in excess of 6 figures so it is not for all. It is the cheapest way to get into the Marriott DC points system nowadays. He paid all in about 25% of the cost from developer. So he got current resale prices but all the perks of buying from developer.

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CalGalTraveler

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He got a great deal for points from a resale perspective. He paid resale prices for and got same benefits as buying directly from developer. This is from his posts on the Marriott forum. To get this deal you are spending in excess of 6 figures so it is not for all. It is the cheapest way to get into the Marriott DC points system nowadays. He paid all in about 25% of the cost from developer. So he got current resale prices but all the perks of buying from developer.

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It seems that to do well with MVC you either have to 1) go big with a special developer deal (6 figures, rent out your points per your note) or 2) go small (buy a resale week deed and enroll for points). It's the middle ground, regular developer deals that lose.

In HGVC you can win going small i.e. buy resale deeded week(s) for pennies on the dollar which enrolls automatically with points. But there is no winning opportunity for going big with HGVC developer purchase. Perhaps that's the core of the complaint we are hearing from the OP on this thread.
 
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frank808

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It seems that to do well with MVC you either have to 1) go big with a special developer deal (6 figures, rent out your points per your note) or 2) go small (buy a resale week deed and enroll for points). It's the middle ground, regular developer deals that lose.

In HGVC you can win going small i.e. buy resale deeded week(s) for pennies on the dollar which enrolls automatically with points. But there is no winning opportunity for going big with HGVC developer purchase. Perhaps that's the core of the complaint we are hearing from the OP on this thread.
Right now marriott does not have a program for enrolling outside resale weeks into the trust. That happens usually once or twice a year. Purchase a minimum of 3000 trust points at around $12 a point ($36k new money) to enroll one external resale week. It does get cheaper when enrolling multiple weeks. Last offer that ended in July was 5500 points to enroll up to 7 externally purchased resale weeks.

Right now MVC sales has a hybrid package offer. You can buy one developer resale week and some trust points to get into the points program cheaper than making straight DC points purchase.

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Been busy with Thanksgiving travel so I am going to try to add some thoughts in one post to multiple points. Sorry I didn't want to quote everyone who made excellent posts, but I thought these were good representatives...

All I would say is comparing a $200/night condo rental like the one linked to a brand name resort like MVC or HGVC is somewhat like comparing apples and oranges - most of those don't have the onsite amenities, super-pools, on-site food and beverage, etc. Marriott rents their units at Maui Ocean Club for well over $435/night - even a 1BR non-ocean view can easily top $700/night in high season. Even non-branded condos in Kaanapali such as the Kaanapali Alii and the Whaler aren't all that much cheaper than the Marriott rates.

Yes and this is also my issue with the RCI and II trades we have done over the past several years. There is a glut of vacation condos, independent or regional timeshares, etc. They show up as cheap rentals on VRBO, TUG and RCI/II. We don't want to stay in those properties. Not because we are snobs, but they don't offer the same experice: (a) they generally do not compete with HGVC in quality, cleanliness, furnishings, location,size and family activities; and (b) while studio and 1 bedrooms abound, there are very limited to no choices for larger units (2-4 bedroom units) in prime season at prime locations (which usually what we need, given family size and children in schools and college). If we were in retirement now and traveling alone with no calendar to restrict us, RCI and II would be great (maybe). In short, we view timesharing as an alternative to expensive resort properties like the Ritz or JW Marriott where 2-3 bedroom units go for 1,000-5,000 per night. Even Doubletree (which prior to timesharing was our budget alternative) can easily run $800 a night for a 2 bedroom suite in a prime location during holiday season. On VRBO we sometimes find a nice property, but it will still run $4K-10K per week. HGVC (and MVC) provide better value if you compare apples to apples (IMHO).

I don't agree that DVC are actually able to make what I would consider an "effective direct offering" in a real sense. Their direct offerings are increasing in price at a good rate- as much or more than HGVC. The only reason that DVC may seem to offer a reasonable direct offering is that, contrary to any other timeshare system I've heard of, the resale prices for a number of properties are actually increasing over time. We own two DVC properties (Boardwalk and Beach Club Villas) that we bought about 10 years back (resale) and we would make 30-50% more than we paid. This is a timeshare industry aberration as far as I know and only makes the direct "seem" reasonable.

But isn't that an important point? If you can buy direct, and resell for more than 50% of what you paid (or even better, make a profit) then it seems to me that DVC *has* made a compelling direct offering, albeit not a cheap one by any measure.

My main reason for moving to MVC was a related but just as important point - the ability to easily resell points to recoup maintenance fees on unused points.

Both "features" - DVC's high resale value, and MVC's freewheeling points rentals - provide an owner with the option value that is just not present in the HGVC system.

This is the exact question that initially got me thinking and ultimately convinced me to move to MVC: *why* is it that HGVC has such devastatingly poor resale, and almost as poor rental returns (at least in my experience, with only a couple of exceptions HGVC properties do not rent as well as they should IMHO)? The answer to that question - in my opinion of course - are the points I started out with in this thread. It may be that not everyone has a desire to resell or rent their HGVC units, but that lack of options, combined with the balkanized product offerings and sales oriented culture have (again in my opinion) caused the straights that HGVC now finds itself in. To all of our detriment ultimately.

And if you think buying resale totally protects you, check out some of the other forums for systems that have failed, gone bankrupt, or been sold to private equity. It is not so easy to exit after that and you are still paying maintenance fees forever, until you find someone who will take your unit (or you need to pay them to do so).
[/QUOTE]

It seems that to do well with MVC you either have to 1) go big with a special developer deal (6 figures, rent out your points per your note) or 2) go small (buy a resale week deed and enroll for points). It's the middle ground, regular developer deals that lose.

In HGVC you can win going small i.e. buy resale deeded week(s) for pennies on the dollar which enrolls automatically with points. But there is no winning opportunity for going big with HGVC developer purchase. Perhaps that's the core of the complaint we are hearing from the OP on this thread.

Agree with that though it wasn't my main point it is an important point - someone who needs a lot of points would be better off in MVC. There is clearly no advantage to going big with HGVC; in fact the system in many ways penalizes large owners (because of the restrictions on renting only the home week, and the inability to rent points, among other things). You can accumulate those HGVC points on resales of course (we have), but you are still left with maintenance fees you can't easily recoup. MVC makes dealing with this simple and economical.
 

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One more ...

I believe I read that only 2 of the HGVC properties that zerocylinders bought were from the developer, the others were resale. I don't know the number of points breakdown between them.

However, using the flexibility of the HGVC system to maximum benefit I could see vacationing for 4-5 months with that many points without renting any points. Therefore, looking at it from that perspective perhaps the HGVC 40,000 point purchases don't seem so bad at all. We bought our 34,600 HGVC points to be able to use to vacation in warm climates for the entire winter. We have been successful in doing that for 12 years, much of that at the Hilton Hawaiian Village. How much would that cost per year if you needed to book a nice hotel room for that long?

I don't know why zerocylinders bought that many timeshares, however, if they were bought with extensive vacationing in mind, perhaps the HGVC purchase was the best purchase ever made!

While not totally relevant to my overall point comparing MVC and HGVC, I do want to defend myself a little bit.

First, we do utilize the points and travel extensively .. (1) Prior to 2020, we will have fully used our HGVC points and/or rented home weeks at break-even or profitable prices (Anderson Club and Sunrise Lodge during prime weeks both rent well); (2) Since purchasing my first HGVC unit (Sunrise), I have run an annual analysis comparing what we would have spent on a comparable apples to apples rental versus maintenance fees and always come out well ahead. In some years we have had 10 weeks of vacation at prime locations in prime seasons. That doesn't account for sunk costs in the original purchase we made at Sunrise of course.

Second, there was really only one really bad purchase decision on our part - our first developer purchase at Sunrise. We bought many years ago at Sunrise when it was new and paid astronomical developer prices. We found this site later, and started buying resales. I did do an upgrade deal to get to elite status and received enough bonus points that we were able to vacation for 18 months without even touching my annual point allotment (which we rented those years at a nice profit). The upgrade was not a terrible deal as far as developer deals go, especially when you consider the bonus points we received, and also lowered my maintenance fee / point cost at Sunrise. The upgrade gave me elite status, which in turn enabled me to defer decision on whether to convert my excess points to HHonors until the actual Use year, which gave me extra months time to rent my other units when not used, including resale units we had acquired at that point (that is the main benefit of Elite for us). Finally, we recently the 3 bedroom at Sunrise for Barbados was at a price comparable to resale (e.g., we did better than we would have if we had tried to sell the Sunrise unit resale, and purchase the Barbados unit resale) so it is hard to see that as a bad outcome (even though we did not get part of what was promised to us as far as GPP is concerned).

The net of all this is that we have enjoyed HGVC and fully utilized our points in the past. However, when it came time to looking for additional vacation opportunities, I felt like we had reached a limit with HGVC where it just did not make sense to add any more properties (resale or direct), yet we wanted more options. That led me to look at MVC. We ignored MVC in the past because of its higher upfront cost and higher maintenance (same with DVC). As many others have pointed out, an HGVC week is cheaper upfront, and generally cheaper on maintenance so it seemed like the right decision. If I had known more about MVC, I probably still would have purchased the weeks at the two properties we actually use the most (Eagle's Nest and Bay Club Villas); but I would have spent the rest of my cash on MVC as it offers much greater flexibility, and that flexibility though at a higher price is worth it for a large points owner at least.
 

Tamaradarann

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One more ...



While not totally relevant to my overall point comparing MVC and HGVC, I do want to defend myself a little bit.

First, we do utilize the points and travel extensively .. (1) Prior to 2020, we will have fully used our HGVC points and/or rented home weeks at break-even or profitable prices (Anderson Club and Sunrise Lodge during prime weeks both rent well); (2) Since purchasing my first HGVC unit (Sunrise), I have run an annual analysis comparing what we would have spent on a comparable apples to apples rental versus maintenance fees and always come out well ahead. In some years we have had 10 weeks of vacation at prime locations in prime seasons. That doesn't account for sunk costs in the original purchase we made at Sunrise of course.

Second, there was really only one really bad purchase decision on our part - our first developer purchase at Sunrise. We bought many years ago at Sunrise when it was new and paid astronomical developer prices. We found this site later, and started buying resales. I did do an upgrade deal to get to elite status and received enough bonus points that we were able to vacation for 18 months without even touching my annual point allotment (which we rented those years at a nice profit). The upgrade was not a terrible deal as far as developer deals go, especially when you consider the bonus points we received, and also lowered my maintenance fee / point cost at Sunrise. The upgrade gave me elite status, which in turn enabled me to defer decision on whether to convert my excess points to HHonors until the actual Use year, which gave me extra months time to rent my other units when not used, including resale units we had acquired at that point (that is the main benefit of Elite for us). Finally, we recently the 3 bedroom at Sunrise for Barbados was at a price comparable to resale (e.g., we did better than we would have if we had tried to sell the Sunrise unit resale, and purchase the Barbados unit resale) so it is hard to see that as a bad outcome (even though we did not get part of what was promised to us as far as GPP is concerned).

The net of all this is that we have enjoyed HGVC and fully utilized our points in the past. However, when it came time to looking for additional vacation opportunities, I felt like we had reached a limit with HGVC where it just did not make sense to add any more properties (resale or direct), yet we wanted more options. That led me to look at MVC. We ignored MVC in the past because of its higher upfront cost and higher maintenance (same with DVC). As many others have pointed out, an HGVC week is cheaper upfront, and generally cheaper on maintenance so it seemed like the right decision. If I had known more about MVC, I probably still would have purchased the weeks at the two properties we actually use the most (Eagle's Nest and Bay Club Villas); but I would have spent the rest of my cash on MVC as it offers much greater flexibility, and that flexibility though at a higher price is worth it for a large points owner at least.

This post presents more even and more objective thoughts than the title of the thread you started:
Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member

I believe that those of us here that are HGVC members appreciate the thoughts you most recently presented.

 

brp

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The net of all this is that we have enjoyed HGVC and fully utilized our points in the past. However, when it came time to looking for additional vacation opportunities, I felt like we had reached a limit with HGVC where it just did not make sense to add any more properties (resale or direct), yet we wanted more options. That led me to look at MVC. We ignored MVC in the past because of its higher upfront cost and higher maintenance (same with DVC). As many others have pointed out, an HGVC week is cheaper upfront, and generally cheaper on maintenance so it seemed like the right decision. If I had known more about MVC, I probably still would have purchased the weeks at the two properties we actually use the most (Eagle's Nest and Bay Club Villas); but I would have spent the rest of my cash on MVC as it offers much greater flexibility, and that flexibility though at a higher price is worth it for a large points owner at least.

This makes a lot of sense to me as well. I do find the flexibility of HGVC sufficient for our needs, but that's because they have properties in places we want to go. Others may certainly find this limiting. Within those locations, there is pretty much unlimited flexibility for what we want to do (owning in NYC is a big part of that and lacking that ownership would limit flexibility).

We have also looked (very cursorily) at MVC due to the increased flexibility of location, but initially balked at the apparent high price compared to HGVC. Of course, because the exploration was cursory, I was doing an apples to apples on what is really an apples to oranges. And I don't yet know anywhere near enough about the oranges...

At the moment we have some HGVC that we want to sell since we jut bought more to lower MF ratio. Until that happens, we won't be looking at anything else, but then may venture into other waters such as MVC, or even cheap trader points to use for exchanges. A friend is a true expert in this and has told us of the things that can be done with the cheap traders if one spends the time.

Cheers.
 

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This makes a lot of sense to me as well. I do find the flexibility of HGVC sufficient for our needs, but that's because they have properties in places we want to go. Others may certainly find this limiting. Within those locations, there is pretty much unlimited flexibility for what we want to do (owning in NYC is a big part of that and lacking that ownership would limit flexibility).

We have also looked (very cursorily) at MVC due to the increased flexibility of location, but initially balked at the apparent high price compared to HGVC. Of course, because the exploration was cursory, I was doing an apples to apples on what is really an apples to oranges. And I don't yet know anywhere near enough about the oranges...

At the moment we have some HGVC that we want to sell since we jut bought more to lower MF ratio. Until that happens, we won't be looking at anything else, but then may venture into other waters such as MVC, or even cheap trader points to use for exchanges. A friend is a true expert in this and has told us of the things that can be done with the cheap traders if one spends the time.

Cheers.
We stumbled into a "cheaper trader" years ago when we bought a Mexican TS that trades in RCI. The resort is Sandos (NOT Sandals) and we have 84,000 points that cost us only $199 per year, plus our RCI membership, so in other words these RCI points cost us almost nothing. Where Sandos gets its pound of flesh is that they are a mandatory All-Inclusive resort, so to stay there would cost between $92 and $136 per day per person (and rising). We do stay there once in a while, but tend to use our RCI points elsewhere for trades. This is a 30 year RTU (Right to Use) TS as opposed to a deeded unit so we can basically dump it whenever we are done with it. We paid retail which is not so good, but we have made it pay and feel it owes us nothing. The benefit of owning this TS is that we are NEVER tempted to use our valuable HGVC points to book into what are usually much less luxurious RCI digs. I'm not a fan of RCI due to their exorbitant booking fees, (often) low quality resorts, and inability to change or cancel, but we own this one and do use it. As long as life doesn't get in our way and force us to cancel our reservations, it can give us some quite low cost holidays.
 

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This post presents more even and more objective thoughts than the title of the thread you started:
Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member

I believe that those of us here that are HGVC members appreciate the thoughts you most recently presented.


I still like my original title. I don’t want it to be lost how disappointed I am with HGVC as an organization, and how I believe this will play out for HGVC in coming years (hint: not well).

You know, I don’t mind paying a local scuba dive shop a 200% markup on equipment I can buy cheaper online. Why? Because I want my local shop to be around next year, foster a community, create vacation opportunities I could not easily plan alone, and provide valuable advice for free. If you lose that, you are buying cheap product from a company on its way to the bottom and can’t expect a relationship over time to last.

It may work for a while, maybe a few more years, but I doubt it will last. I would prefer to pay a premium to a company that treats its customers well and is in it for a long term relationship that works for everyone. Resales are great, but I am looking beyond the bottom line in a particular purchase too. My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that. So I defend the title, even if my op may not not have expressed my sentiment perfectly.


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My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that.

Interestingly, as decade-long owners of both HGVC and DVC I don't see a whole lot of difference in the experience. In fact, relative to HGVC, DVC have downgraded the resale purchase relative to the direct quite a bit more than HGVC, the latter only costing the Elite Benefits, which most feel not worth much. DVC has substantial penalties. As we are grandfathered resale purchasers, we have full rights there, but not so new purchases.

But really not a whole lot of difference in the rules and use model.

Also, from a DVC owners board I read, many there would say that same about DVC that you are saying here in describing the decline and why they want out. When one knows a program very well, it's easy to find the sore spots.

Cheers.
 

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Resales are great, but I am looking beyond the bottom line in a particular purchase too. My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that. So I defend the title, even if my op may not not have expressed my sentiment perfectly.


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I agree with your points about how HGVC is. By being an owner in HGVC, MVC (weeks and DC points) and DVC I will say that the 3 systems are more alike than different in the way they treat owners. Have had great sales experiences and bad experiences from each company. I have had great vacation customer service from all three systems. In my opinion, being an owner all these years I would say that DVC used to treat resale ownership the best then HGVC. Now I will say HGVC treats resale the best with DVC the worst. To me it is sad to see how DVC used to be the leader in treatment of resale buyers to the worst (of HGVC, MVC and DVC).

The reason that DVC has such great resale value compared to everyone else is the age old saying of "location, location, location". You can be near disney or even on property (Wyndham Bonnet Creek) but not like Bay Lake Tower.



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I agree with @frank808 after staying at MVC and HGVC I believe they are more alike than different. Biggest difference is that MVC is more expensive.

MVC Resale also doesn't participate in points unless you pay their "tax" to enroll. Sometimes they require at $10k plus purchase of trust points to do this. HGVC requires enrollment in points with the $599 fee upfront.

I have heard that Diamond will not deedback any unit that was bought resale, even if it was resale from an acquisition. This is draconian to me. MVC doesn't do this.
 

Tamaradarann

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I still like my original title. I don’t want it to be lost how disappointed I am with HGVC as an organization, and how I believe this will play out for HGVC in coming years (hint: not well).

You know, I don’t mind paying a local scuba dive shop a 200% markup on equipment I can buy cheaper online. Why? Because I want my local shop to be around next year, foster a community, create vacation opportunities I could not easily plan alone, and provide valuable advice for free. If you lose that, you are buying cheap product from a company on its way to the bottom and can’t expect a relationship over time to last.

It may work for a while, maybe a few more years, but I doubt it will last. I would prefer to pay a premium to a company that treats its customers well and is in it for a long term relationship that works for everyone. Resales are great, but I am looking beyond the bottom line in a particular purchase too. My whole point here is that I think MVC gets that (based on my experience alone so far), DVC seems to get that as well, and HGVC is completely lost on that. So I defend the title, even if my op may not not have expressed my sentiment perfectly.


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After your last posts brp, frank 808, and CalGalTraveler gave some objective thoughts about HGVC, MVC and DVC which you were able to effectively do in your previous post. While I am an HGVC owner I am not totally pleased with HGVC. I don't like how they continue to raise the price of the timeshares they sell even during the recent recession when whole properties in Florida and Las Vegas lost 50% of their value. I don't like how they are raising "Open Season" rates. I don't like they charge resort fees for RCI exchanges in Las Vegas and Orlando where there is so much competition in the timeshare industry and that perhaps exchangers will go to other properties rather than to the HGVC resorts. I have expressed these specific thoughts here on TUG and to HGVC corporate officers. However, while I am still an HGVC owner I am not done with HGVC. I will continue to use the timeshares for the reasons that I bought them; to vacation a lot.

By the way while not relevant to this thread, your comment about paying more to a local dive shop is also something we can disagree on. We stay for many months in Waikiki. With the high prices that many of the local stores charge if we didn't do most of our shopping in Sam's, Walmart, and Target instead of the local stores we couldn't afford to stay there that long.
 
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I own DVC and HGVC and like them both. I bought DVC both from Disney and via resale. I only bought HGVC via resale.

I use DVC exclusively for Disney and never trade out.

I use HGVC for NYC (incredible bargain vs paying cash to hotels), las vegas, hawaii, etc. I also convert extra points to HHonors and use those whenever I need to.

Overall, I am pretty happy with both systems. My DVC contracts are way up in value and my HGVC are about the same.

I wish there were more HGVC locations.
 

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One thing HGVC could do to incent and reward developer purchases would be to allow developer purchases to rent/rent out club points similar to MVC. Of course, I would like them to grandfather all the developer purchases, however I suspect that they would require upgrading to an elite level (where they don't need to rent the points), or an additional upgrade to enable participation in this market, but this would hobble the market to develop as you need many buyers and sellers of points to make this work.
 

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One thing HGVC could do to incent and reward developer purchases would be to allow developer purchases to rent/rent out club points similar to MVC. Of course, I would like them to grandfather all the developer purchases, however I suspect that they would require upgrading to an elite level (where they don't need to rent the points), or an additional upgrade to enable participation in this market, but this would hobble the market to develop as you need many buyers and sellers of points to make this work.

My expectations, based on experiences with events much like this with DVC, is that:
  • If they make any reductions for resale purchases going forward, they would grandfather current resale purchasers into those old rules. To take those away (even though their T&Cs likely allow this) would open them to too much scrutiny and possibly litigation.
  • Resale purchasers beyond that point would, of course, not receive the benefit.
  • Any new perks added for direct purchase would not be grandfathered to existing resale purchasers without some "qualifying" purchase, as you suggest. Simply no incentive to do this.

Cheers.
 
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