Why buy after June if points get awarded the following year but MF kick in right away!

[SNA27]

@Grammarhero clued me in on the nefarious gaming to enjoy the use of points without paying the MF on another thread about Negative Balance.

It made me realize I have been gamed all along to pay MF in most of the purchases from Wyndham!

On purchases made after June, I have paid MF starting immediately even though points are only awarded starting the following year!

My recent purchase of WBC in July 2019, I have been paying MF but my points only start from 2020!

I only thought of questioning it in July 2019 and I got a glib unsatisfactory response "it all even out. That's how it has always been done."

Evens out for whom? Not for me!

How is this fair? What is the logic behind this? Why not prorate?

 

[Jan M.]

Are there people who have paid maintenance fees for a use year in which they didn't receive points?

 

[SNA27]

I am a prime example! I bought in July 2016 and paid MF in 2016 for points that began in 2017. Again in July 2018 and paid MF for points that began in 2019. And once more in July 2019, paying MF for points that will begin in 2020! June cutoff is quite arbitrary!

 

[dgalati]

I am a prime example! I bought in July 2016 and paid MF in 2016 for points that began in 2017. Again in July 2018 and paid MF for points that began in 2019. And once more in July 2019, paying MF for points that will begin in 2020! June cutoff is quite arbitrary!

Sounds like you were gamed by Wyndham. Maybe Your paying monthly fees on points someone else used then gave back deed to Wyndham through Ovations. You still rooting for Wyndham ? Learn to play the game by their rules and take advantage of what they give you.

 

[Eric B]

It's not always June; some people have January, April, and October starts for their usage years. My experience is somewhat limited because I only bought enough from the developer to get to VIPG with 2 PICs after my first purchase, and I did that near the end of my usage year. In that case, the effective date/start of MFs coincided with my usage year start. I believe that is part of why they give you the bonus points contract when you buy; you wind up receiving the points you are paying for as bonus points for the first year if you are in a situation like the one you describe while others that time it differently get extra points as a windfall.

The start of MFs and first batch of points is more important with resale contracts IMHO because they typically don't come with bonus points to make up the shortfall. Some resale contracts may have points associated with them and some may not, but you will wind up paying the MFs once one transfers. Given the much lower price for those, the difference can be quite a large percentage of the cost. There were a few people posting here about how they used to purchase contracts and commit all the points to reservations they rented out then sell the contracts stripped of three years of points while only being liable for a few months MFs; that is part of why the points credit pool doesn't exist any more.

 

[dgalati]

@Grammarhero clued me in on the nefarious gaming to enjoy the use of points without paying the MF on another thread about Negative Balance.

It made me realize I have been gamed all along to pay MF in most of the purchases from Wyndham!

On purchases made after June, I have paid MF starting immediately even though points are only awarded starting the following year!

My recent purchase of WBC in July 2019, I have been paying MF but my points only start from 2020!

I only thought of questioning it in July 2019 and I got a glib unsatisfactory response "it all even out. That's how it has always been done."

Evens out for whom? Not for me!

How is this fair? What is the logic behind this? Why not prorate?

Are you still rooting for Wyndham? It has something to do with the new system that was implemented almost 3 years ago. Proration of points used to be the norm on a use year alignment? All this changed when Wyndham went with the new system. Negative points balance also showed up along with the new system.

 

[dgalati]

It's not always June; some people have January, April, and October starts for their usage years. My experience is somewhat limited because I only bought enough from the developer to get to VIPG with 2 PICs after my first purchase, and I did that near the end of my usage year. In that case, the effective date/start of MFs coincided with my usage year start. I believe that is part of why they give you the bonus points contract when you buy; you wind up receiving the points you are paying for as bonus points for the first year if you are in a situation like the one you describe while others that time it differently get extra points as a windfall.

The start of MFs and first batch of points is more important with resale contracts IMHO because they typically don't come with bonus points to make up the shortfall. Some resale contracts may have points associated with them and some may not, but you will wind up paying the MFs once one transfers. Given the much lower price for those, the difference can be quite a large percentage of the cost. There were a few people posting here about how they used to purchase contracts and commit all the points to reservations they rented out then sell the contracts stripped of three years of points while only being liable for a few months MFs; that is part of why the points credit pool doesn't exist any more.

Wyndham has told me all points transfer to new owner on a resale deed even if current use year points have been used by the previous owner. This is why a owner can have negative balance.

 

[dgalati]

I am a prime example! I bought in July 2016 and paid MF in 2016 for points that began in 2017. Again in July 2018 and paid MF for points that began in 2019. And once more in July 2019, paying MF for points that will begin in 2020! June cutoff is quite arbitrary!

Would you consider this to be nefarious of Wyndham?

 

[bobinmich]

SNA....damn...they Gamed you!

 

[dgalati]

SNA....damn...they Gamed you!

Hard to believe Wyndham is capable of this type of nefarious gaming behavior.

 

[raygo123]

I am a prime example! I bought in July 2016 and paid MF in 2016 for points that began in 2017. Again in July 2018 and paid MF for points that began in 2019. And once more in July 2019, paying MF for points that will begin in 2020! June cutoff is quite arbitrary!

When can you start booking with those points? Now or January one? You have to pay inorder to book. Current.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk

 

[raygo123]

@Grammarhero clued me in on the nefarious gaming to enjoy the use of points without paying the MF on another thread about Negative Balance.

It made me realize I have been gamed all along to pay MF in most of the purchases from Wyndham!

On purchases made after June, I have paid MF starting immediately even though points are only awarded starting the following year!

My recent purchase of WBC in July 2019, I have been paying MF but my points only start from 2020!

I only thought of questioning it in July 2019 and I got a glib unsatisfactory response "it all even out. That's how it has always been done."

Evens out for whom? Not for me!

How is this fair? What is the logic behind this? Why not prorate?

If you pay monthly automatically on your credit card it is prorated. That discrepancy related to how many points you have versus how many you can book?

Sent from my Lenovo TB-X103F using Tapatalk

 

[GRapuser]

I was told by a salesperson at Glacier Canyon (lies, I know) that if you buy more points in the first 6 months of your use year, all of the points are available right away for that use year (meaning you get a bit of a discount on MF's for that year). If you buy during the last 6 months of your UY, then they are not available until the following year (meaning you pay MF's for unavailable points). In Wyndham's logic, I'm sure this is what they mean by "it evens out."

This was my experience, however. My UY starts April 1. When I purchased in December, the points were assigned to the following UY. When I bought in July, the points were available for the current year the day after purchase (from Telesales).

 

[SNA27]

Are you still rooting for Wyndham? It has something to do with the new system that was implemented almost 3 years ago. Proration of points used to be the norm on a use year alignment? All this changed when Wyndham went with the new system. Negative points balance also showed up along with the new system.

I have to assume that Wyndham's legal department has made sure this complies with applicable laws. Otherwise, there would already have been a class-action lawsuit.
But your actions trying to exploit a 'perceived' loophole is marked by 'bad faith' and if Wyndham takes legal action, a judge could very well find for them and award them punitive damages against you! Just saying!

 

[Eric B]

I have to assume that Wyndham's legal department has made sure this complies with applicable laws. Otherwise, there would already have been a class-action lawsuit.
But your actions trying to exploit a 'perceived' loophole is marked by 'bad faith' and if Wyndham takes legal action, a judge could very well find for them and award them punitive damages against you! Just saying!

Read some old threads and you’ll learn about people it’s happened to....

 

[SNA27]

July 2016 -

Read some old threads and you’ll learn about people it’s happened to....

Link, please. Or, at least a search hint!

 

[dgalati]

I have to assume that Wyndham's legal department has made sure this complies with applicable laws. Otherwise, there would already have been a class-action lawsuit.
But your actions trying to exploit a 'perceived' loophole is marked by 'bad faith' and if Wyndham takes legal action, a judge could very well find for them and award them punitive damages against you! Just saying!

You are paying monthly fees on points not available to you and you call my way of using my ownership nefarious? I would suggest you learn the system before judging others. I use my ownership as it works for me within Wyndham guidelines. Taking back deeds from owners with Ovations or for for free and selling deeds is a common practice Wyndham uses on a daily basis.

I have to assume that Wyndham's legal department has made sure this complies with applicable laws. Otherwise, there would already have been a class-action lawsuit.
But your actions trying to exploit a 'perceived' loophole is marked by 'bad faith' and if Wyndham takes legal action, a judge could very well find for them and award them punitive damages against you! Just saying!

Blah blah blah. I use ownership as it works for me. You can keep buying developer points and getting gamed by the team you are rooting for if it works for you great.

 

[chapjim]

Another way of looking at it could be:

If you are buying resale, you are looking for a good contract -- right number of points, home resort, and initial cost. Six months of maintenance fees is probably trivial compared to the amount to be paid over the period of ownership.

 

[SNA27]

Dude, keep jumping turnstiles! And keep rationalizing it to make yourself feel good!
Ovation is intended for owners who have enjoyed their ownership and are no longer in a position to do so! Not for you who's still using the system! But nefariously! Ha ha!

Ovation by Wyndham
We want you to continue to get the most out of your ownership. If your vacation needs or lifestyle have changed, know that we’re here to help. For those who qualify, Ovation by Wyndham offers safe and secure options to exit your ownership with us.
Ovation by Wyndham provides credible ownership exit solutions

• There are a number of options to suit your unique needs including Limited Edition and Tribute by Wyndham.
• There are no hidden fees, costs or additional purchases required to participate.
• Many of these exit solutions require that ownerships are paid off and maintenance fees are current.
• You can exit your ownership in as little as 90 days.
• Ovation by Wyndham is a hassle-free option that is offered directly to our owners.

 

[SNA27]

Another way of looking at it could be:

If you are buying resale, you are looking for a good contract -- right number of points, home resort, and initial cost. Six months of maintenance fees is probably trivial compared to the amount to be paid over the period of ownership.

I am working on a spreadsheet to get at the number to see if it's really material!
Unfortunately, I didn't download my credit card Tx in time and I have to use the year-end summaries!

What bothers me is the glib response that 'it all evens out'! My spreadsheet will verify the veracity of this claim!

Since my wife works in a school, our vacations usually happened in July timeframe.
I have had a total of 5 transactions with Wyndham, 3 happened in July, 1 in February and 1 in June. Moreover, the piggybacks take time to kick in even if done in Feb.
My Flagstaff FW purchased in Feb 2018 didn't get completed until July so the converted points didn't start until 2019!

 

[Grammarhero]

Dude, keep jumping turnstiles! And keep rationalizing it to make yourself feel good!
Ovation is intended for owners who have enjoyed their ownership and are no longer in a position to do so! Not for you who's still using the system! But nefariously! Ha ha!

Ovation by Wyndham
We want you to continue to get the most out of your ownership. If your vacation needs or lifestyle have changed, know that we’re here to help. For those who qualify, Ovation by Wyndham offers safe and secure options to exit your ownership with us.
Ovation by Wyndham provides credible ownership exit solutions

• There are a number of options to suit your unique needs including Limited Edition and Tribute by Wyndham.
• There are no hidden fees, costs or additional purchases required to participate.
• Many of these exit solutions require that ownerships are paid off and maintenance fees are current.
• You can exit your ownership in as little as 90 days.
• Ovation by Wyndham is a hassle-free option that is offered directly to our owners.

@dgalati is smart for using or "gaming" the Wyndham TS in this way. I've earlier said that real estate developers were smart for tax deducting capitalized depreciation as carry over losses year after year, which is "gaming" the IRS. What dgalati is doing is not any different from what the real estate developers are doing to the IRS.

With all due respect, the jumping turnsite, which is clearly specified and codified as illegal, is not an apt comparison. There is no law specifically prohibiting what dgalati is doing. His actions are within the guidelines.

If Wyndham has a problem with dgalati, they could simply not take back his deeds. Of course, Wyndham won't, because they need dgalati's old deeds to sell at rip-off prices to mostly unsuspecting TS vacationers.

 

[dgalati]

Another way of looking at it could be:

If you are buying resale, you are looking for a good contract -- right number of points, home resort, and initial cost. Six months of maintenance fees is probably trivial compared to the amount to be paid over the period of ownership.

Many will buy a deed with low monthly fees and no current use year points available for under $500 or as little as a $1. I like the ideal Wyndham transfers all points even if none are available it works to a advantage if you play it right.

 

[SNA27]

Ok, If the buyer buys it knowing the current year points have been used up, that's fine. But when registers the sale with Wyndham, he will only get points the following year but has to pay NF for the current year. Numbers work out! So, where's the gaming? You didn't game Wyndham or owners like me. The new owner has to pay the MF! You just fooled the buyer! That's all!

 

[Grammarhero]

I am working on a spreadsheet to get at the number to see if it's really material!
Unfortunately, I didn't download my credit card Tx in time and I have to use the year-end summaries!

What bothers me is the glib response that 'it all evens out'! My spreadsheet will verify the veracity of this claim!

Since my wife works in a school, our vacations usually happened in July timeframe.
I have had a total of 5 transactions with Wyndham, 3 happened in July, 1 in February and 1 in June. Moreover, the piggybacks take time to kick in even if done in Feb.
My Flagstaff FW purchased in Feb 2018 didn't get completed until July so the converted points didn't start until 2019!

You should email Michael Brown. Today, I got 154k pts for 2019 usage for a Grand Desert I bought on 9/4/19, even though I wasn't expecting the points. My sneaking suspicion is that with all developer purchases, points don't get awarded the following year to unsuspecting Wyndham buyers, as to make up for any "bonus" points. Of course, with resale contracts, there are no "bonus" points.

 

[SNA27]

@dgalati is smart for using or "gaming" the Wyndham TS in this way. Since you're a fan of the President, I've earlier said that the President was smart for tax deducting capitalized depreciation as carry over losses year after year, which is "gaming" the IRS. What dgalati is doing is not any different from what the President is doing to the IRS.

With all due respect, the jumping turnsite, which is clearly specified and codified as illegal, is not an apt comparison. There is no law specifically prohibiting what dgalati is doing. His actions are within the guidelines.

If Wyndham has a problem with dgalati, they could simply not take back his deeds. Of course, Wyndham won't, because they need dgalati's old deeds to sell at rip-off prices to mostly unsuspecting TS vacationers.

Sorry, @Grammarhero, I don't agree with you about the President or your mischaracterization of his depreciation deductions or carryover losses. But I don't want to go there and get this thread locked!
Maybe, if I had had some Vodka, I might have taken your bait! But I know better now!

As a lawyer, you know how judges look unkindly upon 'bad faith' transactions!

bad faith
1) n. intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations, misleading another, entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it, or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others. Most states recognize what is called "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" which is breached by acts of bad faith, for which a lawsuit may be brought (filed) for the breach (just as one might sue for breach of contract). The question of bad faith may be raised as a defense to a suit on a contract. 2) adj. when there is bad faith then a transaction is called a "bad faith" contract or "bad faith" offer. (See: good faith, fraud, clean hands doctrine)