Where would we all be without the lying sand sucking sales folks at TS

[raygo123]

NO! And see, that's the thing. The most strident voices in response to questions about direct purchases are absolute and unconditional, i.e. "RESCIND NOW, DON'T BE AN IDIOT, ONLY SUCKERS BUY DIRECT, THE USAGE VALUE YOU WANT ISN'T COST-EFFECTIVE, DON'T BUY ANYTHING JUST RENT, IF THEIR LIPS ARE MOVING THEY'RE LYING, BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!" Sometimes it's even plastered in GIANT RED FONT and decorated with every emphasizer available, I guess for those who are exceedingly idiotic?

I have never seen a TUGger who sees certain value in purchasing direct and sharing their knowledge, say anything near that absolute or insulting to those who buy or sell on the external market.

That's the difference, and that's the attitude I would prefer to not see on TUG. EVER.

I would be so turned off on timeshares, I wouldn't ever consider buying one again, retail or after market. Tug is a great place. I would love to see every after market TS sold. It would benifit all. It would be interesting to know how many stick around once they recind, PR better how many bought afterwards.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[taterhed]

Drop me in that category. Rescinded once almost rescinded a second time; changed my mind while thinking on the deal after I got some advice on tug and ended up not signing the contract. Repurchased after visiting TUG. I now own four resale contracts

sent from my cell phone...

 

[SueDonJ]

Again - there are 2 completely different issues here:

1. Posts that are rude and violate the TUG "courtesy" rules.

2. Posts that are appropriate, but are negative about developer purchases.

If a post falls in category #1 - it can be removed - report it if you think it should be removed.

If a post falls in category #2, your options are to: post your own opinion supporting developer purchases, or ignore it.

It seems pretty cut and dry to me…

But you've admitted that the strident mantra works for you because what you purchased direct could have been had at the time on the resale market for less than what you paid. I really mean this in as non-argumentative a way as possible, but if you (meaning: the collective) haven't been indirectly or directly insulted by the strident voices when they're incorrect, you don't have a complete understanding of how the prevalent attitude isn't helpful.

As a moderator I could completely skip the "report" steps and, for example, edit the title of this thread, couldn't I? How welcome would it be, how much would it reflect the OP's intent of this thread, if I edited it to read, "Where would be without developer sales of TS?" I don't think it would be welcomed at all.

Really, I'm not in this discussion to rile up the masses or simply be a contrarian. But instead to discuss how the most strident and blanket condemnations of direct purchases and the people who sell them, aren't any more correct than a 100% pro-developer voice would be. And that we should be able to have the discussion without the accompanying insults (toward each other as well as toward every person who has ever been employed by a developer as a salesperson.)

 

[Renne Stone]

If TS sales folks had to be honest how many units would be out there?

I am trying to see the good in them and figure if they did not get the ball rolling with suckers money maybe we would only have about 1/10 of the TS that are out there.

Your thoughts?

I've received very good and honest advice fromTUG, there are obviously some that are superfluous, I just don't take importance to those.

 

[DeniseM]

But you've admitted that the strident mantra works for you because what you purchased direct could have been had at the time on the resale market for less than what you paid. I really mean this in as non-argumentative a way as possible, but if you haven't been indirectly or directly insulted by the strident voices when they're incorrect, you don't have a complete understanding of how the prevalent attitude isn't helpful.

As a moderator I could completely skip the "report" steps and, for example, edit the title of this thread, couldn't I? How welcome would it be, how much would it reflect the OP's intent of this thread, if I edited it to read, "Where would be without developer sales of TS?" I don't think it would be welcomed at all.

Really, I'm not in this discussion to rile up the masses or simply be a contrarian. But instead to discuss how the most strident and blanket condemnations of direct purchases and the people who sell them, aren't any more correct than a 100% pro-developer voice would be. And that we should be able to have the discussion without the accompanying insults.

Sue - A "strident" opinion may or may not violate the TUG posting rules - it completely depends on how it's posted AND if it's directed at a specific individual. Someone could post a very firm and absolute opinion, and it would be 100% OK, as long as it is courteous [and doesn't violate other rules, like politics, porn, profanity, etc.]

The title of this post is a generic opinion - it is not directed at a specific person. I also think it was meant to be humorous.

If, as a moderator, you aren't sure if a post violates the posting rules or not, I'd ask other moderators to look it over (privately.)

 

[Ty1on]

Your right. But, what is different is what price you had to sell the cost of goods.( margin) another term as a whole, cost of inventory.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Cost of Inventory is the actual cost of goods produced but not sold.

Product Cost is the forecast production cost of a good, which is used to set the minimum price at which the product must be sold to make the desired margin. This analysis must be done before the first component part is ordered. Actual pricing is based on what the market will bear, using competitor analysis and taking into account whether it will be a cost leader or a quality leader. If a product is first to market, the company will factor the market price of a similar product and its own Margin projection into the pricing decision..

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue - A "strident" opinion may or may not violate the TUG posting rules - it completely depends on how it's posted AND if it's directed at a specific individual. Someone could post a very firm and absolute opinion, and it would be 100% OK, as long as it is courteous.

The title of this post is a generic opinion - it is not directed at a specific person. I also think it was meant to be humorous.

If, as a moderator, you aren't sure if a post violates the posting rules or not, I'd ask other moderators to look it over (privately.)

I give up, raising the white flag.

Moderating this thread/the OP didn't occur to me until you mentioned it. It still doesn't, probably because despite all the insults it contains, I've learned that it's standard fare for TUG. Direct purchases and all those involved with them are the one thing that can be lambasted, roasted and toasted, with any and all remarks against them celebrated to Kingdom Come. That's the way it's been since the first day I found TUG and I don't expect that to change. But it doesn't mean I'll support it quietly.

 

[DeniseM]

I was responding to this:

As a moderator I could completely skip the "report" steps and, for example, edit the title of this thread, couldn't I? How welcome would it be, how much would it reflect the OP's intent of this thread, if I edited it to read, "Where would be without developer sales of TS?" I don't think it would be welcomed at all.

 

[DeniseM]

As far as posting your opinion about buying from the developer, if you feel that a newbie made a good decision when they bought from the developer, because it meets goals that cannot be met by buying resale, then you should absolutely post it.

I don't know enough about Marriott to understand what those scenarios are, but it would help both the newbies, and experienced Tuggers, if you would provide the details of those scenarios, (as they come up) for everyone's benefit.

With Starwood, if you want to become an Elite owner, you have to buy some of your timeshares from the developer - but it shouldn't be the first one that is purchased. So this strategy is a common topic of conversation. However, it's very expensive and it's an advanced strategy, that requires significant research and knowledge, so generally, it's not an entry level strategy.

 

[raygo123]

Cost of Inventory is the actual cost of goods produced but not sold.

Product Cost is the forecast production cost of a good, which is used to set the minimum price at which the product must be sold to make the desired margin. This analysis must be done before the first component part is ordered. Actual pricing is based on what the market will bear, using competitor analysis and taking into account whether it will be a cost leader or a quality leader. If a product is first to market, the company will factor the market price of a similar product and its own Margin projection into the pricing decision..

I touched on that briefly in post 66. Retail use market factors, goals etc to price an item. Let's say, as an example, toilet paper. And it is a loss leader. Other product in that same category must be priced at a higher margin to aquire the desired margin for that category.

As far as production, besides the cost of every part and piece, there is the cost of design engineering, and the actual production, and lets not forget the receptionist. That's why I used X4 parts in process, in this case, the condo selling for $200,000. With an additional X4 for administration, corporate expense. One of which is sales. It is at this point, which is usually before gong to market, the decision is made to proceed or not.

I'm glad you understand that inventory is the cost of good not sold. That is the hypothetical we are dealing with. Pretense, not pastense. The tugger going to the bank, the bank wanted the past. In pricing an item, you need to price for the future.

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[ronparise]

And I have never heard of anyone quote cost of goods as a %. Cost of goods is fixed once determined. Then mark up is added. My figures were based on fair market value YOU supplied. I was pointing out another way to come to your conclusion. Like in grade school check your math.

I can see where the value of your platinum membership was misunderstood. I thought your total investment in platinum was $12,000, didn't realize it was triple that.

I was wondering since you do so much with winpoint,
If your account list would support the number of points you say you have?

40% gross is a wall Street bell weather, so your figures as to profit don't align with acceptable standards.

X 4 X 4 is used for new products.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

again I have no idea what you are saying

Over the last 5 years I have spent much more than $36000 buying contracts on the secondary market. (Last year it was $125,000 for 20 million points. The $12,000 figure was for a purchase from Wyndham that made my silver account Platinum. Because I have as many points and contracts as I do, I did it twice for 2 platinum accounts. but since I put 50% down and financed 50% my out of pocket was $12000 for the two purchases

Im no accountant but the cost of goods sold is not a constant. It fluctuates.for example if Im building houses and the price of lumber doubles my cost goes up too. and if im selling widgets and the cost of widget ore goes up, so does my cost

in Wyndhams case they develop product in several ways, everything from building a resort from the ground up (Bonnet Creek) to buying an up and running timeshare system (Pahio) to buying a hotel and converting it to timeshares (New York) to selling someone elses condo as a timeshare (Reunion). Their costs are different for all this and their costs have to be managed. As I said their goal has been 16% (the rest of the puzzle is 60% marketing and the rest is profit) Im not making this stuff up, I read the trans scripts of the quarterly earnings calls

 

[DavidnRobin]

Just saw this semi-amusing thread. Denise is 100% correct when it comes to Starwood (SVO). Many come to the SVO forum and cannot be talked off the ledge and jump into a SVO purchase - and ALWAYS defend their purchase. Rarely a wise move, but there are those rare exceptions (and disposable income is not an issue).

Regardless, with the purchase of any costly product (especially with recurring costs) - it is NEVER a good idea to purchase without 1st researching. People do this for mostly everything - except for Timeshares. I was guilty of this, but luckily found TUG in my research and rescinded (certainly didn't keep me away from buying SVO).

When people come to TUG - we chant RESCIND for this very reason. Generally because that person did ZERO research (other than what the TS salesperson just told them...). We know this because they bought without 1st researching, and in most cases the ability to rescind in extremely time dependent (e.g. 7 days). So RESCIND! is the chant from the crowd, and rightly so.

As we know - many still buy after hearing our cries - and generally because these TS salespeople are skilled professionals. To those I say - thanks for keeping the boat afloat.

Since these types of people (buying a TS week w/o researching) will always exist - there will always be a resale market for Developer purchased TS weeks, and a resale market of resale weeks, that will continue to grow as long as Developers keep building them.

Purchase wisely...

 

[ronparise]

NO! And see, that's the thing. The most strident voices in response to questions about direct purchases are absolute and unconditional, i.e. "RESCIND NOW, DON'T BE AN IDIOT, ONLY SUCKERS BUY DIRECT, THE USAGE VALUE YOU WANT ISN'T COST-EFFECTIVE, DON'T BUY ANYTHING JUST RENT, IF THEIR LIPS ARE MOVING THEY'RE LYING, BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!" Sometimes it's even plastered in GIANT RED FONT and decorated with every emphasizer available, I guess for those who are exceedingly idiotic?

I have never seen a TUGger who sees certain value in purchasing direct and sharing their knowledge, say anything near that absolute or insulting to those who buy or sell on the external market.

That's the difference, and that's the attitude I would prefer to not see on TUG. EVER.

Denise routinely insults me and so have you when I suggest that selling through a PCC might be a good idea, And that there are lawyers with a track record of helping folks out of their timeshares.

The fact is that there are almost no cases where a purchase from the developer makes sense

Its no different than whan I posted about a boat I wanted to buy. I got very strong advice not to do it.. I did it anyway Was it a stupid financial decision?absolutely, could I have done better (financially) just chartering a boat and captain every couple of months? sure. The fact is Im happy with what I did and my friends here on tug think Im stupid. and I dont have a problem with that

and I dont see where you should have a problem with anyone giving their strong opinion regarding a direct timeshare purchase. after all they are right, and the folks that come here asking for advice know it. it is almost always a stupid thing to do (he says after writing another $1000 check to dock his boat)

 

[raygo123]

Or is that EBITDA for corporate?

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[Ty1on]

I touched on that briefly in post 66. Retail use market factors, goals etc to price an item. Let's say, as an example, toilet paper. And it is a loss leader. Other product in that same category must be priced at a higher margin to aquire the desired margin for that category.

As far as production, besides the cost of every part and piece, there is the cost of design engineering, and the actual production, and lets not forget the receptionist. That's why I used X4 parts in process, in this case, the condo selling for $200,000. With an additional X4 for administration, corporate expense. One of which is sales. It is at this point, which is usually before gong to market, the decision is made to proceed or not.

I'm glad you understand that inventory is the cost of good not sold. That is the hypothetical we are dealing with. Pretense, not pastense. The tugger going to the bank, the bank wanted the past. In pricing an item, you need to price for the future.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I'm just always amused when salesmen teach accountants how to do accounting.

 

[raygo123]

Yea we were always wondering were the cost accountants head were located

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[Ty1on]

Yea we were always wondering were the cost accountants head were located

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We never had a doubt where the salemen's heads were located

 

[DeniseM]

If you two would like to insult each other - please take it to PM.

 

[raygo123]

Somethings never change ha ha

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[taterhed]

Meh... why not lock the thread now and move on.

sent from my cell phone...

 

[davidvel]

NO! And see, that's the thing. The most strident voices in response to questions about direct purchases are absolute and unconditional, i.e. "RESCIND NOW, DON'T BE AN IDIOT, ONLY SUCKERS BUY DIRECT, THE USAGE VALUE YOU WANT ISN'T COST-EFFECTIVE, DON'T BUY ANYTHING JUST RENT, IF THEIR LIPS ARE MOVING THEY'RE LYING, BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!" Sometimes it's even plastered in GIANT RED FONT and decorated with every emphasizer available, I guess for those who are exceedingly idiotic?

I have never seen a TUGger who sees certain value in purchasing direct and sharing their knowledge, say anything near that absolute or insulting to those who buy or sell on the external market.

That's the difference, and that's the attitude I would prefer to not see on TUG. EVER.

I followed this thread since its inception, but simply don't see the vitriol that you do. The only reference to sucker was by the OP (and you), and it didn't seem malicious. The OP did not say all direct purchasers are suckers, nor has anyone else in this thread.

I am sure you can find references in other threads that seem to imply this, but I don't recall posts stating that every person who buys direct is a sucker, or that there is no scenario where buying direct is something to do. (But if there are, these are those person's opinions.)

I also don't recall posts where people called a new visitor "an idiot" as you describe. Is it possible your personal passion on the topic is making you think the comments are more negative than they are. That's how I perceive your post.

That being said, I do think that even if all of what you describe occurs every time someone asks if they did the right thing, and they end up rescinding that is better for them than thinking their purchase is as good a deal as was sold to them vs. resale (if it isn't), and not rescinding.

There's always time for the platonic discussion of the pluses and minuses and make them feel good about purchasing by giving positive examples of the very technical, rare situations where direct buy is good, and maybe they go back and buy again after lengthy research and evaluation of all the facts (vs. what was sold to them.)

Put another way, what's the harm in getting them to rescind when they are questioning their purchase, and (almost always) clearly don't know what they got into? And if one thinks this is the best outcome, shouldn't they shout from the rooftops to accomplish it?

Sorry if you disagree, but that's how I feel.

 

[TUGBrian]

everyone is always entitled to their opinions..and they often vary from one extreme to the other.

however, I think we can all agree that for most if not all folks coming here looking for help with a new purchase...rescission is the suggestion they should get time and time again.

note that there is a huge chasm of difference between "rescind while you still have time and do your research"

and

"dont ever buy retail"

however for some residents here (for various reasons)...that distinction is not made....and that is a completely separate issue to discuss because the focus of the message is for the person seeking help and advice...not the veterans/experts/etc =)

 

[deslagle]

TS Salesman

We would never have gotten started in timesharing without a pushy somewhat dishonest salesman and the enticement to get us to the presentation ultimately all of which drove up the initial price. We bought in Kissimmee after my spouse caved in during the presentation. We were staying at a Howard Johnson with a small room, 5 suitcases open all over the place with a roll-away for my daughter and my 2 sons in 1 bed and my spouse and I in the remaining bed. We were paying for 3 meals a day. No kitchen. The bathroom sharing was worse than home.
The timeshare (Westgate Vacation Villas 2 bedroom red week) solved all of the Howard Johnson issues of space and bathrooms and beds and would help
with many meals.
I remember the presentation had a "model" 2 bedroom and swim pools all over and space to move and two televisions and parking space. The salesman read some of the exchange information right out of the RCI book.
Well he never mentioned Kissimmee did not have the prerequisite "POWER".
They actually were part of II as well.
When we came back to use the resort we were given a 2 bedroom but the childrens beds were singles not the full size shown in the "model" we were previously shown. We sent an official complaint with proof of selling materials and a VHS of the model that was shown us and got David Siegel obliged to give us what we payed for.
To their credit the salesman was gone long before that and they took care of us.
By 2008 I had figured out a lot and had been a TUG member for a long time.
I reshuffled my whole portfolio that I had bought when the the resales crashed due ot the economy downturn. Even bought a Westin Whistler Whiski Jack for $1 on an ebay no reserve auction. Although Raintree dropped that affiliation I got use out of the ownership and lost my $1.

I have used TUG, Redweek, Ebay, Bidhshares, and the internet URL's for the various resorts to find out the demand, quality, prices, busy seasons, Rainy season, Flying pricing and everything I needed to know to make an informed decision. So we exchange our Shell and Raintree via points using the internet. Shell gives us access to II. Do not pay for an exchange company annually. TUG has been a huge help on relative quality and basic do's and don'ts. The remaining timeshares we use which are all every other year on Maui, Kaui, St Lucia, Grand Cayman and Hacienda Tres Rios (fractional) north of Playa Del Carmen.

Have made many mistakes the first 15 years of timesharing but never paid more than ten thousand for any one timeshare and since 2008 rarely pay more
than $500 to $1000 for a timeshare. The only exception is being part of the new Londoner at Morritts Tortuga (grand cayman) but we love that island and will have much enjoyment there. We now get our value out of our timeshares.
So to sum this up it is a necessary evil to have the original salesman but in the end we used the purchase to our advantage. We did not give away the original property but equity exchanged it and got more in the end for trade power than we had. A Kissimmee timeshare could not get me to Maui.
But buying one by re-sale without getting soaked proved to have lots of power and value.
D E Slagle

 

[davidvel]

We would never have gotten started in timesharing without a pushy somewhat dishonest salesman and the enticement to get us to the presentation ultimately all of which drove up the initial price. We bought in Kissimmee after my spouse caved in during the presentation. We were staying at a Howard Johnson with a small room, 5 suitcases open all over the place with a roll-away for my daughter and my 2 sons in 1 bed and my spouse and I in the remaining bed. We were paying for 3 meals a day. No kitchen. The bathroom sharing was worse than home.
The timeshare (Westgate Vacation Villas 2 bedroom red week) solved all of the Howard Johnson issues of space and bathrooms and beds and would help
with many meals.
I remember the presentation had a "model" 2 bedroom and swim pools all over and space to move and two televisions and parking space. The salesman read some of the exchange information right out of the RCI book.
Well he never mentioned Kissimmee did not have the prerequisite "POWER".
They actually were part of II as well.
When we came back to use the resort we were given a 2 bedroom but the childrens beds were singles not the full size shown in the "model" we were previously shown. We sent an official complaint with proof of selling materials and a VHS of the model that was shown us and got David Siegel obliged to give us what we payed for.
To their credit the salesman was gone long before that and they took care of us.
By 2008 I had figured out a lot and had been a TUG member for a long time.
I reshuffled my whole portfolio that I had bought when the the resales crashed due ot the economy downturn. Even bought a Westin Whistler Whiski Jack for $1 on an ebay no reserve auction. Although Raintree dropped that affiliation I got use out of the ownership and lost my $1.

I have used TUG, Redweek, Ebay, Bidhshares, and the internet URL's for the various resorts to find out the demand, quality, prices, busy seasons, Rainy season, Flying pricing and everything I needed to know to make an informed decision. So we exchange our Shell and Raintree via points using the internet. Shell gives us access to II. Do not pay for an exchange company annually. TUG has been a huge help on relative quality and basic do's and don'ts. The remaining timeshares we use which are all every other year on Maui, Kaui, St Lucia, Grand Cayman and Hacienda Tres Rios (fractional) north of Playa Del Carmen.

Have made many mistakes the first 15 years of timesharing but never paid more than ten thousand for any one timeshare and since 2008 rarely pay more
than $500 to $1000 for a timeshare. The only exception is being part of the new Londoner at Morritts Tortuga (grand cayman) but we love that island and will have much enjoyment there. We now get our value out of our timeshares.
So to sum this up it is a necessary evil to have the original salesman but in the end we used the purchase to our advantage. We did not give away the original property but equity exchanged it and got more in the end for trade power than we had. A Kissimmee timeshare could not get me to Maui.
But buying one by re-sale without getting soaked proved to have lots of power and value.
D E Slagle

Great post! Now RESCIND! :ignore:

 

[csxjohn]

...

I have never seen a TUGger who sees certain value in purchasing direct and sharing their knowledge...
That's the difference, and that's the attitude I would prefer to not see on TUG. EVER.

I have seen it and talked a little about it and I think you are wrong is saying most advice is to rescind and never look again.

The advice I see frequently and that I often give is that if you have to ask the question you should rescind now while you still have time. Then study, study, and study some more and if you think you got a good deal, they will gladly sell it to you again.

That does not mean I have an attitude against developer purchases, it means I have a problem with people who do more research buying a smart phone than they do on spending tens of thousands of dollars on a timeshare.

I don't see how you equate this to a prevalent attitude that developer purchases are always bad.