• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Where would we all be without the lying sand sucking sales folks at TS

OutSkiing

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
538
Reaction score
241
Points
153
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Resorts Owned
Midtown 45, Bali Hai, Margaritaville
so, in the case of Wyndham: A typical example is the Reunion resort where a 3 bedroom condo generates roughly 12,000,000 credits to sell at 20 cents each or $2.4 million. The very same condo sells for about $200000 on the local real estate market.

It amazes me that competition has not brought the developer pricing down. So I was thinking about Ron's example ... The $200,000 condo sale might have a 6% commission on the sale which would be $12,000 due to the realtor which I guess covers the office staff.

So if that realtor had to sell the same unit 52 times to get the unit fully sold, they might justify 52 x $12,000 = $624,000. That commission plus the base $200,000 for the condo would be $824,000. This is still a third the full $2.4 million.

Bob
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
No, I know that's about right.
200,000 X 4 X 4, first four is manufacturer mark up, the second is administration, which includes sales.

Since ronparise hasn't bought direct for a while he came
Darn close. My figures are based on a manufacturers average mark up. I'm so I'm treating my assumption based on that industry. The industry was on a 10 year buy cycle. Ronparise's $12,000 platinum X 4= $48,000.
I don't think I can add the other 4 not knowing how much of a customer list that's active. What do points mean without demand? And that also my adding the other 4, to $98,000.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
Wow, that markup is even higher than I expected! I thought the typical timeshare sold for about five times what a comparable new whole-ownership condo would sell for. But, the Reunion resort is twelve times as much as a whole-ownership condo.

Anyone have thoughts on this? Are all Wyndhams marked up so much?

Wyndhams goal is to keep their cost of goods sold at about 16%

I havent looked for a while(they wont let me in the sales rooms) but I think they are asking 22 cents a point.($220/1000) so 16% would be about 3.5 cents ($35/1000) That a 6 to 1 ratio.. but thats average. The Reunion condos they picked up pre-foreclosure I dont know what they paid , but actually they didnt have to pay anything. as they negotiated a "just in time" delivery of the product. The banks held it untill the sales force sold it, so it went straight to us. very little corporate money was involved.

Recently Wyndham has been taking back points from us owners. through their ovation program. Zero cost of goods, then sold for $220/1000 points. Hard to calculate that one.

Wyndhams formula is
16% costs of goods, 60% marketing and 25% profit (plus the interest on the loans)

I think you are right 5:1 is probably industry average. Theres a reason why Wyndhams stock has done so well

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The operative word here is "average" The average new buyer looking at the average timeshare priced the way the average developer prices them should never buy direct. It is just dumb and something they will regret.

Of course there are exceptions. Im one of them, Ive purchased 126000 points, enough for an off season week somewhere, from Wyndham for $25000. But there more to the story than that... That purchase allowed me to convert several fixed weeks to VIP eligible points. so now I get 60 guest confirmations worth $100 each per year and all my millions of points get a 50% discount... made sense to me, but thats far from average. And I know about Christmas weeks in ski country and 4th of July at the Beach, but these are not average purchases, By all means pay what you have to to get one of these

I am still confident that the best advice for most new buyers is to stay out of the sales rooms. and that when I say buying direct is always a mistake, Im almost always right
 
Last edited:

ronparise

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
12,664
Reaction score
2,134
Points
548
No, I know that's about right.
200,000 X 4 X 4, first four is manufacturer mark up, the second is administration, which includes sales.

Since ronparise hasn't bought direct for a while he came
Darn close. My figures are based on a manufacturers average mark up. I'm so I'm treating my assumption based on that industry. The industry was on a 10 year buy cycle. Ronparise's $12,000 platinum X 4= $48,000.
I don't think I can add the other 4 not knowing how much of a customer list that's active. What do points mean without demand? And that also my adding the other 4, to $98,000.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I have no idea what your point is here, I learned that there is usually something meaningful behind what you write, but Ill be damned if I can figure this one out
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
And I have never heard of anyone quote cost of goods as a %. Cost of goods is fixed once determined. Then mark up is added. My figures were based on fair market value YOU supplied. I was pointing out another way to come to your conclusion. Like in grade school check your math.

I can see where the value of your platinum membership was misunderstood. I thought your total investment in platinum was $12,000, didn't realize it was triple that.

I was wondering since you do so much with winpoint,
If your account list would support the number of points you say you have?

40% gross is a wall Street bell weather, so your figures as to profit don't align with acceptable standards.

X 4 X 4 is used for new products.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

pedro47

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
22,068
Reaction score
8,532
Points
948
Location
East Coast
New thought without the lying timeshare sales people 25 years plus ago their would no resale or timeshares resorts as we know them today. I doubt that the major hotel chain today would be represented in the industry.
 

csxjohn

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
6,551
Reaction score
134
Points
348
Location
North East Ohio
Resorts Owned
Tropic Shores Resort, Bluegreen points
Sue, I generally agree with what you say here (both that people say it, and that its true.) The distinction most here will make is the difference between ALL and MOST (or almost all). My focus is always on those who come here being ignorant about what they got into, understanding that some developer purchases are good for certain people.

If its true (and I don't disagree) that the overall tone here can be anti-developer as a rule, it also means that its the collective wisdom (right or wrong). Not sure why their is such a backlash about this. If most TUGGERs think that most developer purchases are bad per se, that's just how the collective wisdom has evolved (and maybe the view has merit, as a general rule?)

While I personally agree with that line of thinking, I also enjoy the counterbalancing examples and arguments, from you, JIMinNC, and others.

As Denise said, let's enjoy the debate and not take it personally, even if you're on the wrong side of the debate. :D

Well said!

When I see a post from someone who comes here looking for help they invariable say, "did I do the right thing" or words to that effect.

The fact that they are not sure means to me that they did not study and do not really understand what they bought.

Does anyone here think we should not tell that person to "rescind now while you can, study the situation and if you still think it's a good deal go back and buy it?"

That is not anti developer or a prevalent attitude, it is sound advice.

Anyone who is knowledgeable about the TS they bought into would not be here asking if they did the right thing. Why would they?
 

hammerhammer

newbie
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
99
Reaction score
3
Points
68
Location
Woodbury MN
I can see how some time shares have worked out in the past.

I am sorry I should have been more clear.

Today where is a property that is make sense buying retail from the developer?

(I knew some of the ski time shares would be great)
 

csxjohn

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
6,551
Reaction score
134
Points
348
Location
North East Ohio
Resorts Owned
Tropic Shores Resort, Bluegreen points
...
Today where is a property that is make sense buying retail from the developer?

....

I know the answer depends on who you ask.

In the Bluegreen example I talked about earlier, many people believe it is well worth the money to buy as small a developer (or Pinnacle who is owned by BG) package as you can to get the added bennies from owning qualified pts, then buying the bulk of the pts you want to use on the re-sale market.

The two major benefits you would get with that developer purchase is the ability to buy Bonus Time at all their resorts and joining Travelers Plus that gives some benefits.

Is it worth the expense? Some say yes and some say no, your personal circumstances will guide you.
 

hammerhammer

newbie
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
99
Reaction score
3
Points
68
Location
Woodbury MN
I know the answer depends on who you ask.

In the Bluegreen example I talked about earlier, many people believe it is well worth the money to buy as small a developer (or Pinnacle who is owned by BG) package as you can to get the added bennies from owning qualified pts, then buying the bulk of the pts you want to use on the re-sale market.

The two major benefits you would get with that developer purchase is the ability to buy Bonus Time at all their resorts and joining Travelers Plus that gives some benefits.

Is it worth the expense? Some say yes and some say no, your personal circumstances will guide you.

Thanks it is nice to see the industry changing for the better.

Do those bonus items transfer on resale?

Thanks
 

comicbookman

TUG Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
973
Reaction score
321
Points
274
Location
Dillwyn, Virginia
And I have never heard of anyone quote cost of goods as a %. Cost of goods is fixed once determined. Then mark up is added.

I guess you never looked at a restaurant. Cost of goods is always expressed as a percentage. Same for every retail operation I have owned or worked at. First question the bank asked when I was applying for a loan was "what are your average cost of goods?" and they wanted the answer as a percentage of sales.
 

Angela5svr

newbie
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
23
Reaction score
0
Points
0
You realize marketing is responsible for generating tours, that budget includes all the free gifts everyone gets to take a tour. That's a must to get owners as is statistical 2 out of 10 will buy. And in all honesty, the salespeople are ignorant. All they know is what they are trained to say. These companies, ESPECIALLY WYNDHAM, hero's them extremely segmented for a reason. The reason Ron is you and I!

the reason they lie and cheat itavetha.morris@yahoo.coms the price that they are charging. of which 60% or so goes to marketing and commission

so, in the case of Wyndham: A typical example is the Reunion resort where a 3 bedroom condo generates roughly 12,000,000 credits to sell at 20 cents each or $2.4 million. The very same condo sells for about $200000 on the local real estate market.

another way to look at it is to consider the secondary market. 250000 points will cost you $50,000 from Wyndham, Last night I bought 279000 points for $750. on ebay..

So $200000 vs $2,400,000 or $750 vs $50,000 The only way a salesman can overcome those differences is to lie

So would the timeshare industry die without the lies.. I dont think so. just reduce the price, (and the marketing budget and take a little less profit) I think the industry could still grow.
 

csxjohn

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2012
Messages
6,551
Reaction score
134
Points
348
Location
North East Ohio
Resorts Owned
Tropic Shores Resort, Bluegreen points
Thanks it is nice to see the industry changing for the better.

Do those bonus items transfer on resale?

Thanks

When you buy from BG directly or Pinnacle for qualified pts you get bonus time at any of their resorts when available. (45 days out I believe.)

When you buy re-sale you only get BT at the resort on your underlying deed.

BT is nice for extending your stays. When traveling to a vaca it's just as easy to stay in a motel because I'm usually just sleeping and moving on in the morning.

You cannot get Travelers Pus with a resale purchase.
 

AwayWeGo

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
15,686
Reaction score
1,630
Points
699
Location
McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.
Resorts Owned
Grandview At Las Vegas

[triennial - points]
For Most Folks, Rescinda-Sinda-Sinda Is Still Great Advice.

I think the folks that can make a retail purchase pay off are few and far between. Im one of them.

I spent $12000 with Wyndham to make my account a Platinum account. I get 30 guest confirms a year worth $100 each and a 50% discount on my reservations. Given the size of my account Im earned the money back in a matter of months
I'm guessing a savvy purchase like that seldom if ever happens across 1 of those little tables in a balloon-festooned room filled with prospects who were drawn in by the promise of freebies & exposed to 90+ minutes of hard-sell razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo.

For them, & for practically everybody, the advice to rescind a full-freight timeshare purchase before it's too late is apt to be best.

Those few & far between people who figure out some particular way of making a direct purchase work out advantageously can always go back & close a deal. More power to them.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,668
Reaction score
9,088
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
raygo123 - What field are you employed in?
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
I guess you never looked at a restaurant. Cost of goods is always expressed as a percentage. Same for every retail operation I have owned or worked at. First question the bank asked when I was applying for a loan was "what are your average cost of goods?" and they wanted the answer as a percentage of sales.
No I have not looked at restaurants. I would imagine it is quite difficult to determine a fixed cost, to the cost of goods, with a fixed menu price all you can do is express it over a period of time, as it relates to sales. Large variations could lead to pricing problems. ie cash flow.
Hense, that's probably why the bank wanted it expressed that way. Usually much better information can be found on the year end experience repeat, unless it was not available.

Retail, big boys like profit per square foot. On an item per item basis it margin, or mark up. 33.3% margin, Or a 1.5 markup. What does the % of cost of goods mean to a retailer, how can he use it?

The only thing I can think of is to compare to a previous quarter in order to see the effect of mark downs.
But it would just be easier to look at the profit margin from the quarter the year before.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

Ty1on

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
5,119
Reaction score
1,952
Points
348
COGS is almost always analyzed as a % of Revenue, with Gross Margin being the inverse.
 

taterhed

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
4,536
Reaction score
1,901
Points
399
Location
Virginia
Resorts Owned
Westin WKORV OFD
Marriott's Grande Vista
Worldmark x2
SVV Bella 81k
This thread gives digression a whole new meaning…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
COGS is almost always analyzed as a % of Revenue, with Gross Margin being the inverse.
Cost of goods, and cost of goods sold are two different things. With cost of goods you establish a selling price. It could be as simple as pricing everything at a 40% gross, or set each margin to different factors such as turns, how fast it moves off the self, etc.

Cost of goods sold, is 20/20 hindsight.

Ronparise's analogy was talking about what it would sell for by Wyndham. Not what it sold for.
He got the price right, I was questioning his method.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,668
Reaction score
9,088
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
raygo123 - What field are you employed in?
 

Ty1on

TUG Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
5,119
Reaction score
1,952
Points
348
Cost of goods, and cost of goods sold are two different things. With cost of goods you establish a selling price. It could be as simple as pricing everything at a 40% gross, or set each margin to different factors such as turns, how fast it moves off the self, etc.

Cost of goods sold, is 20/20 hindsight.

Ronparise's analogy was talking about what it would sell for by Wyndham. Not what it sold for.
He got the price right, I was questioning his method.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

No, sir. Cost of Goods and Cost of Goods Sold is interchangeable. Product Costing allows you to target a selling price. Cost of Goods is a very specific accounting term.
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
I was a manufacturers rep. First in the food industry, can goods. Then as a rep. For an office furniture manufacturer, as both directly working for them and as an independent broker. And finally selling granite and kitchens.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

raygo123

TUG Member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
2,066
Reaction score
255
Points
293
Location
twinsburg ohio
No, sir. Cost of Goods and Cost of Goods Sold is interchangeable. Product Costing allows you to target a selling price. Cost of Goods is a very specific accounting term.
Your right. But, what is different is what price you had to sell the cost of goods.( margin) another term as a whole, cost of inventory.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,778
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
... Does anyone here think we should not tell that person to "rescind now while you can, study the situation and if you still think it's a good deal go back and buy it?" ...

NO! And see, that's the thing. The most strident voices in response to questions about direct purchases are absolute and unconditional, i.e. "RESCIND NOW, DON'T BE AN IDIOT, ONLY SUCKERS BUY DIRECT, THE USAGE VALUE YOU WANT ISN'T COST-EFFECTIVE, DON'T BUY ANYTHING JUST RENT, IF THEIR LIPS ARE MOVING THEY'RE LYING, BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!" Sometimes it's even plastered in GIANT RED FONT and decorated with every emphasizer available, I guess for those who are exceedingly idiotic?

I have never seen a TUGger who sees certain value in purchasing direct and sharing their knowledge, say anything near that absolute or insulting to those who buy or sell on the external market.

That's the difference, and that's the attitude I would prefer to not see on TUG. EVER.
 
Last edited:

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,668
Reaction score
9,088
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
Again - there are 2 completely different issues here:

1. Posts that are rude and violate the TUG "courtesy" rules.

2. Posts that are appropriate, but are negative about developer purchases.

If a post falls in category #1 - it can be removed - report it if you think it should be removed.

If a post falls in category #2, your options are to: post your own opinion supporting developer purchases, or ignore it.

It seems pretty cut and dry to me… :shrug:
 
Top