Where would we all be without the lying sand sucking sales folks at TS

[davidvel]

I totally disagree. TUG has no mercy for those that buy direct. Otherwise, when the everlasting parade of people wanting out, would be given the pros and cons of buying direct.

The first choice is to be told recind now, don't wait another minute. Rather than examining what they Bought, why, and what they can do with it.

Yes I understand that most who come to tug should have taken time, reasearched first, and above all can afford a timeshare. Most do not understand they are buying an interest in real estate, and all things promised MUST be in writing.

Yes, the majority should recind. But there is more to the answer than telling a person thy can buy the same thing for a dollar.

Has anyone ever suggested asking what their goals are for buying a timeshare?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

As you state, the majority should rescind. People find TUG after buying with just a few days to (properly) rescind. They almost always don't understand what they bought. They were likely told lies or at least half-truths. They are questioning their purchase. There is no downside to rescinding--they can always buy again, if they have rescinder's remorse.

By the time these people "examin[e] what they Bought, why, and what they can do with it," its too late. They are stuck.

Its only because TUG has such mercy, that the first response to these types of inquiries should always be: RESCIND.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Pros & Cons Of Paying Full Freight For Timeshares (I.e., Buying Direct).

What are the pros, if any ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[LannyPC]

There is no downside to rescinding--they can always buy again, if they have rescinder's remorse.

Its only because TUG has such mercy, that the first response to these types of inquiries should always be: RESCIND.

Exactly. We have had countless people come on these boards with buyer's remorse but I have yet to see one person come here who rescinded and is complaining about "rescinder's remorse". Most, if not all, who come on these boards after rescinding and after receiving advice from TUGgers to rescind, have expressed great appreciation and great relief.

 

[ronparise]

What are the pros, if any ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

I think the folks that can make a retail purchase pay off are few and far between. Im one of them.

I spent $12000 with Wyndham to make my account a Platinum account. I get 30 guest confirms a year worth $100 each and a 50% discount on my reservations. Given the size of my account Im earned the money back in a matter of months

 

[JIMinNC]

I would enjoy one example of where it is a wise decision to purchase from the developer.

What are the pros, if any ?

Here are three examples...

Number one is well stated by Mary Ann in post #5

Number two is our purchase of a Maui timeshare at the then Embassy Vacation Resort in 1998 (now Kaanapali Beach Club). It was a new TS property at the time, so buying direct from the developer was the only option. That was when the timeshare options on Maui were very limited - pre-Marriott, Westin, and Hyatt. We used it for 16 years and sold it in late 2014 when we bought into the Marriott system. Over that period we totally recouped our purchase price and then some in saved costs of vacation rentals plus our sales proceeds.

Number three is our purchase into Marriott in 2014. We wanted in the Marriott Destination Club points system rather than pure weeks ownership. We could have bought resale points on the external marketplace, but the cost of those (when you add in the high activation fees Marriott charges) was about the same price as buying what is referred to as a "hybrid bundle" direct from Marriott. The "hybrid bundle" is where you buy a resale week direct from Marriott's internal weeks resales department and then a matching allocation of their direct-purchase points that gives you the right to also convert the resale week into points. The blended all-in cost of those bundles are often about the same as buying pure resale points.

 

[BocaBoy]

Im always amused when folks think TUG is anti-retail no matter what.

what TUG is is anti uneducated decision...and nothing more.

Perhaps people think TUG is anti-retail no matter what because it clearly is. As for the education point, the general attitude is that only the uneducated would ever consider a retail purchase, so every retail purchase is treated as an uneducated purchase.

 

[raygo123]

For me, Wyndham, VIP gold let's me pool points at 6 months so I can book ARP, and then at end of June by that time it is no longer a factor. 60 day upgrade
window let's me recapture points. I booked 5 reservations, St Thomas, national harber, 2 at great some mtn Lodge, and Nashville. The reciprocal trade opens up more options. I started with Wyndham in '85 with a resale. Bought direct starting in 2009.

Where do we want to go, everywhere. Hense Wyndham.
We haven't gone to the same place twice, so far.

Right now, MFs are running about $570 per. with using the mentioned programs. That may go as high as 700.
We have more resources greater than our needs so a direct purchase is not a problem. Last, I think you are treated differently, when you show the VIP card, and the vacation planners seem better on the VIP line.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[DeniseM]

Over the years, I have noticed that some owners who bought from the developer, take it personally, when other posters suggest that there are better options.

If you bought from the developer, and you are happy with what/how you bought, I would not take it personally, nor feel like you need to justify your choices.

There are rare exceptions when it makes sense to buy from the developer, but it's usually an advanced strategy, for a well-informed owner.

But for the VAST majority of newbies who come to TUG seeking advice, this isn't true.

I bought from the developer the first time, but I have no motivation to recommend that to newbies. My message is: Learn from my mistake...

 

[csxjohn]

Rob i am looking at getting a TS for a dollar so no big deal, my worry is the way out.

I would enjoy one example of where it is a wise decision to purchase from the developer.

And for the car analogy, please post up what car you buy today and can hardly give it away tomorrow?

I will not spend the time to find the post but I can give you one example. When I was looking for advice on buying into Bluegreen I was told that buying from BG might not be so bad because of the extra benefits.

I bought resale last August and still am not convince that buying a small retail package is for me but still look at as the advice has some merit.

You asked for one example, I'm sure there are others.

 

[SueDonJ]

Over the years, I have noticed that some owners who bought from the developer, take it personally, when other posters suggest that there are better options.

If you bought from the developer, and you are happy with what/how you bought, I would not take it personally, nor feel like you need to justify your choices.

There are rare exceptions when it makes sense to buy from the developer, but it's usually an advanced strategy, for a well-informed owner.

But for the VAST majority of newbies who come to TUG seeking advice, this isn't true.

I bought from the developer the first time, but I have no motivation to recommend that to newbies. My message is: Learn from my mistake...

I'll never disagree with the advice to rescind when it's timely and it's being given to someone who obviously doesn't understand what s/he's purchased. But I agree with the others here who say that the tone on TUG goes far beyond what it needs to be. Denise, it's telling that you finish your post with, "learn from my mistake." Isn't that fuel for the fire that direct purchases are always mistakes? I simply don't agree that's true.

The glaringly obvious overtone on TUG is that any direct purchases are wrong, are only made by suckers, are always fueled by ignorance, etcetcetc, and that timeshare salespersons working for the developers are always liars, cheats, bottom-feeders, weasels, etcetcetc. All of those are and have been the exact words used by those who respond first and most stridently to ANY posts from new owners. And it doesn't matter if the new owner is known to be a knowledgeable TUGger or not.

We bought direct because what we wanted was high-demand and low-supply at the time we bought, and Marriott made the purchase worthwhile. I'll say anytime I'm asked that if the time comes that we want/need more timeshares I'll happily go back to the knowledgeable, fair and honest Marriott timeshare salesperson who sold us our intervals, and consider seriously whatever she puts on the table despite knowing that the environment is different now than it was when we purchased. As others have already said, there are today products available from Marriott that offer far more specific usage value than anything on the resale market. They're worth considering, even by those of us who know the Marriott products inside and out, backwards and forwards.

Gaining and sharing the knowledge needed to be a smart timeshare buyer/user is never a bad thing. Dismissing someone else's knowledge and considerations is, and IMO it happens too often on TUG. Of course I don't like when it's been directed personally at me, but that's definitely not the only reason it bothers me.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi Sue - I understand your position, but in the vast majority of cases, it does not apply to newbies, who simply made an impulse purchase, and don't know if it was a good strategy or not - AND to compound the issue, they usually financed at a criminal interest rate.

I know little or nothing about Marriott, but with Starwood there are some very specific cases when it makes sense to buy from the developer, but that is almost never a first purchase.

When I say, "learn from my mistake." I am saying that "I" made a mistake buying from the developer. I could have bought the exact same thing on the resale market for 50-75% less. I have no problem saying that I made a mistake, but it's water under the bridge and I don't give it a second thought, now.

However, knowing what I know now, I would never buy from the developer, because even the specific reasons where it makes sense to do so, do not appeal to me at all.

So rather than being defensive about what I bought, I try to help newbies see their other options. YMMV

 

[raygo123]

Rob i am looking at getting a TS for a dollar so no big deal, my worry is the way out.

I would enjoy one example of where it is a wise decision to purchase from the developer.

And for the car analogy, please post up what car you buy today and can hardly give it away tomorrow?

Maybe I should have referenced these posts in my last post.

It is so frustrating knowing that potential buyers do not find this site. Now, the unfortunate souls find their way here by pure luck and desperation. My original post here was as blatant as the title of the post itself. This post has resulted in more information about what we should be discussing with those individuals.

If only there was a way for tug to become proactive

Maybe if those here who rent, can email renters a list of things to be wary of nd the high pressure tactics of TS sales people.

What are the pros, if any ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Over the years, I have noticed that some owners who bought from the developer, take it personally, when other posters suggest that there are better options.

If you bought from the developer, and you are happy with what/how you bought, I would not take it personally, nor feel like you need to justify your choices.

There are rare exceptions when it makes sense to buy from the developer, but it's usually an advanced strategy, for a well-informed owner.

But for the VAST majority of newbies who come to TUG seeking advice, this isn't true.

I bought from the developer the first time, but I have no motivation to recommend that to newbies. My message is: Learn from my mistake...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[DeniseM]

I think we have 2 separate issues here:

A. Are Tuggers sometimes harsh with newbies who buy from the developer?

B. Is it innately rude or unkind to tell newbies that they made a mistake and they have other options?​

My "opinion":

A. Yes - but sometimes newbies are so convinced by the baloney the sales person told them, that they do not get it, unless they get a strong response. If I'm the newbie, I'd much rather suffer some buyer's remorse, than lose $25K - $75K.

B. I don't think so. Again, I think the people who DON'T want to present resale options to a newbie, feel defensive about their own decision to buy from the developer.​

YMMV

 

[pedro47]

Back in the old times there was no Tugs web site or resale time shares. Our second timeshare person was a very straight arrow person. We sold one timeshare and upgrade to another one. It was great until DRI took over plus after about ten years by then we have learned about the Tug web site and the resale market. Thank you DaveM for your t/s background on the Marriott resale market..

 

[WinniWoman]

I am glad I bought direct and it was worth it at the time because we got what we wanted where and when we wanted it and have gotten many years out of it and will continue to do so. There wasn't a BIG resale market at the time- certainly not a freebie market.

We bought a fixed week at a resort we wanted to visit each year and that we could drive to. It also has a float, off season week attached- the saleswoman told us about the exchange process about the red, white and blue RCI system. I immediately started to learn all I could about exchanging so we could do so with the float weeks since our son was in school during those. I was relentless! We went all over the country with those float weeks during prime times- all during the summer and once during Easter break. I am an avid reader and learner and planner.

Many times, people buy timeshares without thinking everything through. I had an advantage in that my parents had a timeshare so I had some advanced knowledge. I also have a very active mind and question everything.

(My mom was lucky in that someone contacted her one day to offer to buy her timeshare after my dad died. She never paid one maintenance fee where she didn't use her weeks.So she had no problem getting rid of her 2 Waters Edge summer weeks in Connecticut.)

TUG is a great resource for newbies who need help. Now there is a big resale and freebie market so things are different. I have TUG to thank for the knowledge of those and did end up with a freebie week at another resort we will use every summer- again within driving distance.

And I am sure there might be some situations still today where buying direct might make sense.

I promote TUG every chance I get. People are always surprised to hear about the options that are out there and I am always very happy to help.

 

[davidvel]

I'll never disagree with the advice to rescind when it's timely and it's being given to someone who obviously doesn't understand what s/he's purchased. But I agree with the others here who say that the tone on TUG goes far beyond what it needs to be. [...]

The glaringly obvious overtone on TUG is that any direct purchases are wrong, are only made by suckers, are always fueled by ignorance, etcetcetc, and that timeshare salespersons working for the developers are always liars, cheats, bottom-feeders, weasels, etcetcetc. All of those are and have been the exact words used by those who respond first and most stridently to ANY posts from new owners. And it doesn't matter if the new owner is known to be a knowledgeable TUGger or not.

Sue, I generally agree with what you say here (both that people say it, and that its true.) The distinction most here will make is the difference between ALL and MOST (or almost all). My focus is always on those who come here being ignorant about what they got into, understanding that some developer purchases are good for certain people.

If its true (and I don't disagree) that the overall tone here can be anti-developer as a rule, it also means that its the collective wisdom (right or wrong). Not sure why their is such a backlash about this. If most TUGGERs think that most developer purchases are bad per se, that's just how the collective wisdom has evolved (and maybe the view has merit, as a general rule?)

While I personally agree with that line of thinking, I also enjoy the counterbalancing examples and arguments, from you, JIMinNC, and others.

As Denise said, let's enjoy the debate and not take it personally, even if you're on the wrong side of the debate.

 

[BocaBoy]

The thing that bugs me is that the general tone on TUG is indeed very personal against many people here who have bought from the developer, and when we push back the response is "don't take it personally". Heck, I even have explained a few times about all the benefits that one could get from their timeshare in the early days, particularly the value of electing MR points. The best timeshare investment (yes, I mean investment) I ever made was my first, a pre-construction developer purchase at Sabal Palms in 1987. I have received responses to those posts that have essentially said I was wrong and the facts were not what I said. To me that is an attitude and NOT education. And before anyone reads what I have just posted as saying that most people should normally buy from the developer, that is NOT what I just said.

 

[ronparise]

The thing that bugs me is that the general tone on TUG is indeed very personal against many people here who have bought from the developer, and when we push back the response is "don't take it personally". Heck, I even have explained a few times about all the benefits that one could get from their timeshare in the early days, particularly the value of electing MR points. The best timeshare investment (yes, I mean investment) I ever made was my first, a pre-construction developer purchase at Sabal Palms in 1987. I have received responses to those posts that have essentially said I was wrong and the facts were not what I said. To me that is an attitude and NOT education. And before anyone reads what I have just posted as saying that most people should normally buy from the developer, that is NOT what I just said.

Tug is also very personal against the people that have done or are considering doing business with timeshare liquidation companies, Heck I even have explained about the benefits one could get from doing business with them, My best timeshare investment was from one of these liquidation companies. (yes I said investment)> The responses I get when I post on this subject is generally negative, and some have essentially said I was wrong and the facts were not what I said.

Thats an attitude, not education and before anyone takes what i said as advice to always buy from or sell to the post card companies, thats not what I said either

ok now let me take my tongue out of my cheek and say

Lighten up, no one cares what you do with your money. But if someone asks about spending theirs with a timeshare developer, Im gonna say, its almost always a bad idea. .

 

[ekajun1957]

I posted earlier I bought two Direct sales in the past and don't regret either as both were for very specific reasons. Now would I ever do this again with current market conditions is very very very doubtful.
In defense of those who immediately say rescind I notice that most times when the person asking about whether they should rescind or not that they express some confusion about exactly what this is going to cost them or they have found out that some part is not how they understood it at the time they signed. I bet that nearly most can not explain the exact part about Wyndham getting them approved for the credit card and exactly how much is going on that card. Heck couple times some of the older folks will tell you when they get that credit card bill they are totally surprised.
So yes soon as someone expresses the fact they are not totally sure of the financial aspects of any part of the deal, then rescind immediately is best, because if even if it turns out its that very rare case that they OK with the deal it will take beyond the rescind date to figure that out.

 

[Marathoner]

I wish that I had bought from the developer for a week 52 fixed week ski in/out timeshare when it was first offered 15 years ago. Instead, I paid double to buy resale years later. This is another observation that buying from the developer can be the smart decision.


Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

 

[dsmrp]

The thing that bugs me is that the general tone on TUG is indeed very personal against many people here who have bought from the developer, and when we push back the response is "don't take it personally".
... To me that is an attitude and NOT education. And before anyone reads what I have just posted as saying that most people should normally buy from the developer, that is NOT what I just said.

...
Gaining and sharing the knowledge needed to be a smart timeshare buyer/user is never a bad thing. Dismissing someone else's knowledge and considerations is, and IMO it happens too often on TUG. Of course I don't like when it's been directed personally at me, but that's definitely not the only reason it bothers me.

...
I know little or nothing about Marriott, but with Starwood there are some very specific cases when it makes sense to buy from the developer, but that is almost never a first purchase.
...
However, knowing what I know now, I would never buy from the developer, because even the specific reasons where it makes sense to do so, do not appeal to me at all.
...

...
If its true (and I don't disagree) that the overall tone here can be anti-developer as a rule, it also means that its the collective wisdom (right or wrong). Not sure why their is such a backlash about this. If most TUGGERs think that most developer purchases are bad per se, that's just how the collective wisdom has evolved (and maybe the view has merit, as a general rule?)
...

I've bolded excerpts above to help emphasize my opinion that while there is a collective knowledge-wisdom per se on TUG, there is a collective set of values and priorities too. And more often than not, they are applied a kind of one-size-fits-all. Perhaps more so in certain forums. For example, I estimate at least 90% think an ocean front or ocean view in Hawaii is important for their stay or ownership. I'm in the small minority who does not value an ocean view as much as others do. My point is that everyone has some different values, priorities, needs and acceptable levels of risks, and we should try to keep an open perspective when comparing others against our own situations and values.

Yes most first time buyers probably should rescind. I think the ones who come to TUG asking if their purchase is a good deal or not, are already having doubts.

 

[rjpdkp]

Another view of TUG.

I have enjoyed TUG since about 2003 although I didn't register for the BB until 2014. I definitely see a strong bias against buying retail from the developer and agree that that is the best advice to 95% of the newbies who find TUG. Without proper research, why would you spend that much money and then go find TUG and ask for advice.

I personally bought both of my TS before I knew about TUG. I don't know anything about trading or exchange but that is because I don't want to trade. When I bought the first one and RCI wanted $50 for renewing I told them I would think about it after 10 yrs because the $50 a year for ten years would make up for the cost of rejoining RCI.

I bought at Lake Tahoe because that is where I want to go every year. Having traveled the world in the Navy and for the Government, I am perfectly happy vacationing within driving distance.

So, I don't know anything about Shell, DVC, II, RCI, Wyndham, etc.

I do know a little bit about the cost of building/operating a TS. I spent 10 yrs on the board of Tahoe Sands Resort. We (the homeowners) bought out all the developers rights and it is an independent HOA. The resort started with Right To Use deeds and as they expire, new owners need to be found. The process of selling memberships is not cheap. Without a sales organization (brokers license etc.) the Timeshare Resort would die. I don't want that to happen. Lakeshore beach on Lake Tahoe for just plain folks is hard to come by.

So the answer to the question posed by this thread is that without the Sales People selling the Retail Product, There would be NO timeshares.

 

[davidvel]

I've bolded excerpts above to help emphasize my opinion that while there is a collective knowledge-wisdom per se on TUG, there is a collective set of values and priorities too. And more often than not, they are applied a kind of one-size-fits-all. [...]

Yes most first time buyers probably should rescind. I think the ones who come to TUG asking if their purchase is a good deal or not, are already having doubts.

I wish that I had bought from the developer for a week 52 fixed week ski in/out timeshare when it was first offered 15 years ago. Instead, I paid double to buy resale years later. This is another observation that buying from the developer can be the smart decision.

These posts highlight what many have been saying. There's great harm in letting someone who shouldn't buy direct (for whatever reasons), lag and not rescind in time. There's no harm in getting someone to rescind who (in their own particular position) ends up wanting to buy developer.

In marathoner's situation, even if we had all told him/her to rescind and s/he later decided direct was the best choice, they could still buy it. (Unless it was the last unit available, an unlikely scenario.)

 

[ronparise]

I have enjoyed TUG since about 2003 although I didn't register for the BB until 2014. I definitely see a strong bias against buying retail from the developer and agree that that is the best advice to 95% of the newbies who find TUG. Without proper research, why would you spend that much money and then go find TUG and ask for advice.

I personally bought both of my TS before I knew about TUG. I don't know anything about trading or exchange but that is because I don't want to trade. When I bought the first one and RCI wanted $50 for renewing I told them I would think about it after 10 yrs because the $50 a year for ten years would make up for the cost of rejoining RCI.

I bought at Lake Tahoe because that is where I want to go every year. Having traveled the world in the Navy and for the Government, I am perfectly happy vacationing within driving distance.

So, I don't know anything about Shell, DVC, II, RCI, Wyndham, etc.

I do know a little bit about the cost of building/operating a TS. I spent 10 yrs on the board of Tahoe Sands Resort. We (the homeowners) bought out all the developers rights and it is an independent HOA. The resort started with Right To Use deeds and as they expire, new owners need to be found. The process of selling memberships is not cheap. Without a sales organization (brokers license etc.) the Timeshare Resort would die. I don't want that to happen. Lakeshore beach on Lake Tahoe for just plain folks is hard to come by.

So the answer to the question posed by this thread is that without the Sales People selling the Retail Product, There would be NO timeshares.

But in your 10 years on that board did you encourage your licensed salespeople to lie

Or did you price the product properly so your salespeople could present it honestly and if it met the prospects needs it sold itself

Of course we need the developers and of course we need the salesforce and I know this stuff doesn't sell itself but there has to be something wrong when they have to lie and cheat to make their quotas not to mention the price differential between retail and resale

 

[JudyS]

the reason they lie and cheat is the price that they are charging. of which 60% or so goes to marketing and commission

so, in the case of Wyndham: A typical example is the Reunion resort where a 3 bedroom condo generates roughly 12,000,000 credits to sell at 20 cents each or $2.4 million. The very same condo sells for about $200000 on the local real estate market...

Wow, that markup is even higher than I expected! I thought the typical timeshare sold for about five times what a comparable new whole-ownership condo would sell for. But, the Reunion resort is twelve times as much as a whole-ownership condo.

Anyone have thoughts on this? Are all Wyndhams marked up so much?